Topic: [REJECTED] Cyan to blue BUR

The bulk update request #6343 has been rejected.

Reason: From what I can see and have read, cyan tags are to be aliased to their blue equivalents, yet these tags haven't

EDIT: The bulk update request #6343 (forum #388638) has been rejected by @spe.

Related: topic #33746, topic #34551, topic #38592

mothbean said:
create alias cyan_background (324) -> blue_background (32851) # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur
[...]
create alias cyan_hooves (23) -> blue_hooves (736) # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur
[...]
create alias cyan_pupils (13) -> blue_pupils (2061) # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur

cyan_background, cyan_hooves, and cyan_pupils need to have their existing aliases and implications (listed in their respective wiki pages) removed in a separate BUR that needs to be applied first. Note when creating the BUR to do that, you can give it the Forum Topic 42287 to have it appear in this thread as it's related.

I would actually vote to make all the cyan tags invalid because there's no consistency with what people mean by it. As I mentioned back when we had the first big debate over teal in thread #36814, even the official definition changes wildly depending on what industry you're in. The "cyan" in your inkjet printer is clearly a bright blue, while the one on your computer screen is what analog artists would call "aqua".

For colors that are clearly bluish-green, we have the teal tags. For anything that's recognizably in the blue spectrum, there's blue. For everything else, there's MasterCard.

Are we also aliasing orange to red?

arrow189 said:
Are we also aliasing orange to red?

technically, orange is closer to red than cyan is to blue.

sipothac said:
technically, orange is closer to red than cyan is to blue.

Also the whole "blue green red" and "cyan magenta yellow" for additive and subtractive colours respectively.

I don't even want cyan aliased to blue. Let me have my own color damnit.

I vote this time to remove the alias.

I still don't think having cyan as a distinct color will be beneficial, and end up just getting blues and greens mixed up. What some people determine to be (light/bright) blue others will say is cyan, and vice-versa, and same for (light/bright) green. So someone searching blue things will need to search blue and cyan, which will include green things, and someone searching green things will need to search green and cyan, which will include blue things.

Color is an unexpectedly ambiguous notion, based a lot on perception and even cultural factors (some cultures have a harder time distinguishing blue and green colors due to the way they think and talk about them, let alone cyan, blue, and green), and the more detailed we try to be, the more disagreements and confusion there will be to tag/search things of a particular color, making the tags less useful. And given how many <color>_<thing>/<color>_<bodypart>/etc tags there are, every new color creates a ton of tags.

Um no. Cyan is not blue. Blue is not cyan. Unalias all.

watsit said:
I still don't think having cyan as a distinct color will be beneficial, and end up just getting blues and greens mixed up. What some people determine to be (light/bright) blue others will say is cyan, and vice-versa, and same for (light/bright) green. So someone searching blue things will need to search blue and cyan, which will include green things, and someone searching green things will need to search green and cyan, which will include blue things.

Don't we have teal as an official color too? tag group:colors certainly lists it as such. So people searching for blue things would have to include cyan and teal.

snpthecat said:
Don't we have teal as an official color too? tag group:colors certainly lists it as such. So people searching for blue things would have to include cyan and teal.

Cyan is not blue. Teal isn't blue either. If blue things are tagged teal they are mis-tagged. Teal is half- way between green and blue. So if something is blue, it should be tagged blue. 3/4 blue and 1/4 green is cyan. Half green and half blue would be teal. completely green is just green. If colors are tagged correctly, I don't see the issue.

hjfduitloxtrds said:
Cyan is not blue. Teal isn't blue either. If blue things are tagged teal they are mis-tagged. Teal is half- way between green and blue. So if something is blue, it should be tagged blue. 3/4 blue and 1/4 green is cyan. Half green and half blue would be teal. completely green is just green. If colors are tagged correctly, I don't see the issue.

Color is based on subjective perception, which depends on both the surrounding colors and brightness, which includes the viewer's environment and monitor calibration. Sometimes a blue and black dress is white and gold. You can't objectively measure how someone will view a color, at best you can measure the RGB pixel values, but they don't always correspond to how the color (or brightness of a color) is perceived. Brown may be orange. As you move along the color spectrum, there is no hard point where one color ends and another begins.

BTW, when it comes to colors on a computer, cyan is equal intensity blue and green, like teal. Cyan simply is a brighter teal (despite cyan generally being perceived as a more blueish color with teal a more greenish color, again owing to perception).

watsit said:
Color is based on perception, which depends on both the surrounding colors and brightness, which includes the viewer's environment and monitor calibration. Sometimes a blue and black dress is white and gold. You can't objectively measure how someone will view a color, at best you can measure the RGB pixel values, but they don't always correspond to how the color is perceived. Brown may be orange. As you move along the color spectrum, there is no hard point where one color ends and another begins.

BTW, when it comes to computer colors, cyan is equal intensity blue and green, like teal. Cyan simply is a brighter teal (despite cyan generally being perceived as a more blueish color with teal a more greenish color, again owing to perception).

Um yes and no. The dress was blue and black. The picture of the dress was designed to create a whole big ruckus. By taking a photo with extremely poor lighting, people were almost guaranteed to see it differently. Cyan is much bluer than teal. I just don't see what is the problem with adding cyan as an official color. I mean, dark orange is brown. Lighten brown, and you may get orange. brown is weird like that. Brown/ orange is a whole different issue that I really don't want to get into here. Technically, brown and orange would be as same as cyan/ teal. different colors within a similar color space.

hjfduitloxtrds said:
Um yes and no. The dress was blue and black. The picture of the dress was designed to create a whole big ruckus. By taking a photo with extremely poor lighting, people were almost guaranteed to see it differently.

The picture wasn't "designed to" cause confusion. Someone took a picture of a dress, and different people looked at it and came to very different conclusions about the colors they were seeing, due to how the picture ended up. Similarly, someone can post an image here, and people can come to different conclusions about the colors they see due to how the image was composed. Various factors affect our perception of the colors we're looking at (for example, the way the sun illuminates things changes throughout the day and night, and our brains try to factor that out so we can perceive something being the same color regardless if it's morning, afternoon, dusk, or night; someone thinking a object is lit by the morning sun may perceive a different color than someone thinking an object is lit by the final rays of the sun at dusk). The brain acclimates to the lighting we view things with, which shifts the basis for judging color (the color temperature of the light fixtures in your house or room, the color temperature settings some monitors have).

hjfduitloxtrds said:
Cyan is much bluer than teal. I just don't see what is the problem with adding cyan as an official color.

Because people won't agree when something is blue or cyan, or green or cyan, so you'll end up with posts tagged differently despite being the same color. The tags will be less reliable for finding posts that a user thinks has a given color, when people can more easily have different opinions on the color they see. That you're saying cyan is 75/25 blue/green goes to show that point, as other people say cyan is 50/50 blue/green with a high luminosity.

hjfduitloxtrds said:
I mean, dark orange is brown. Lighten brown, and you may get orange. brown is weird like that.

It's less "light brown is orange", and more "darker surroundings makes brown be perceived as orange" (and lighter surroundings makes orange be perceived as brown) without the color itself changing at all in either hue or luminosity. There is no hard line when one becomes the other, as it depends on the way the brain interprets what it's seeing.

hjfduitloxtrds said:
Um no. Cyan is not blue. Blue is not cyan. Unalias all.

I mean, cyan really is just a very light blue. With or without green. Color of the sky, Rainbow Dash's fur, robin's eggs. These are just a lighter shade of blue.

Saying otherwise is an overwhelmingly losing battle. But, I'm not arguing to have cyan for that reason.

I think it might just be worth the split since we have teals and tans.

rainbow_dash said:
I mean, cyan really is just a very light blue. With or without green. Color of the sky, Rainbow Dash's fur, robin's eggs. These are just a lighter shade of blue.

Saying otherwise is an overwhelmingly losing battle. But, I'm not arguing to have cyan for that reason.

I think it might just be worth the split since we have teals and tans.

I don't think having both teal and cyan is really necessary, I think one or the other is fine.

I think the reason that tan (and a lot of other stuff around the red-yellow hue space) gets tags is because they're such common colors in nature and therefore quite common in art as well.

I think having at a minimum one tag for each 6th of the color wheel is fine, which is kind of where we stand right now. I think the color categories should be split further only on a case-by-case basis, because the smaller categories are the harder they are to define their borders.

personally, the only split I could really see being potentially very useful would be a magenta-pink split.

I was just about to make a bur to alias turquoise to teal, but what about using turquoise as the greenblue term instead of teal or cyan?
Most people think of cyan as a bright color due to cmyk and teal is similarly seen as darker and more desaturated. Turquoise is less technical, but the colloquial understanding covers more ground. If someone saw teal or cyan alias to turquoise I think they would get the idea.

I grew up thinking teal was a bright color and it was turquoise that was darker. Just goes to show, we haven't even pinned down what any of these words mean.

You know that thing where languages invent words for colors in a specific and almost uniform order and how some languages still aren't caught up? Maybe English is entering a previously-undiscovered new phase for blue-green and one of the growing pains involves arguing over what word to actually use like this.

It looks like this has been well-covered, but cyan is not blue. Is pink red too? No, I have to disagree with this request.

errorist said:
You know that thing where languages invent words for colors in a specific and almost uniform order and how some languages still aren't caught up?

Interestingly, that video had a recommendation for another video that basically debunks that idea, that it was based on cherry-picked data and using an american or euro-centric viewpoint (that the way we view colors in the west is the proper way that cultures inherently advance toward). In the latter portion they talk about how our ability to discern and understand color is shaped by our language. English, having a strong divide between green and blue for example, can more easily distinguish green from blue, whereas other languages that divide colors differently may have have a harder time separating green and blue (and similarly, they could more easily distinguish colors we have a harder time with). It's more likely that we invent words for, and become more familiar with new color categories as they become relevant to our lives.

It's also relevant to note it's not about simply having a word for colors. We have words for basically any perceivable color, but we grow up being taught and thinking about colors like red, green, blue, and yellow (and perhaps purple/violet and pink). Most English speakers don't go around talking about cyan or magenta as often, and will instead categorize them into a more familiar group (e.g. if something is cyan, we're more likely to call it blue or green instead). Orange is an interesting example, as we used to call it redish-yellow or yellowish-red, "the color of a ripened orange" (the fruit), before the color term "orange" caught on as a result of oranges (the fruit) becoming more customary (we became more familiar with oranges (the fruit) in our daily lives, thus orange becoming a more recognizable color category).

Jesus, I accidentally started WW3

The bulk update request #6851 has been rejected.

remove implication cyan_background (445) -> simple_background (1465832)
create alias cyan_balls (4) -> teal_balls (97)
create alias cyan_blood (9) -> teal_blood (4)
create alias cyan_clitoris (10) -> teal_clitoris (27)
create alias cyan_cum (15) -> teal_cum (16)
create alias cyan_ears (9) -> teal_ears (231)
create alias cyan_glans (45) -> teal_glans (35)
create alias cyan_heart (11) -> teal_heart (7)
remove implication cyan_hooves (23) -> hooves (156610)
create alias cyan_inner_ear (12) -> teal_inner_ear (220)
create alias cyan_insides (57) -> teal_insides (33)
create alias cyan_internal (12) -> teal_internal (0)
create alias cyan_mouth (42) -> teal_mouth (112)
create alias cyan_paws (0) -> teal_paws (9)
remove implication cyan_pupils (13) -> pupils (145995)
create alias cyan_stripes (42) -> teal_stripes (90)
create alias cyan_tail_tip (12) -> teal_tail_tip (29)
create alias cyan_tex (0) -> teal_text (60)
create alias cyan_toes (2) -> teal_toes (6)

Reason: ...so uh, giving alternative option to alias everything cyan to teal for opinion wise? otherwise, make cyan recognized color with teal and blue?

the part 2 will alias the unapplied ones if it's affected

EDIT: The bulk update request #6851 (forum #393257) has been rejected by @Rainbow_Dash.

snake-girl said:
The bulk update request #6851 has been rejected.

remove implication cyan_background (445) -> simple_background (1465832)
create alias cyan_balls (4) -> teal_balls (97)
create alias cyan_blood (9) -> teal_blood (4)
create alias cyan_clitoris (10) -> teal_clitoris (27)
create alias cyan_cum (15) -> teal_cum (16)
create alias cyan_ears (9) -> teal_ears (231)
create alias cyan_glans (45) -> teal_glans (35)
create alias cyan_heart (11) -> teal_heart (7)
remove implication cyan_hooves (23) -> hooves (156610)
create alias cyan_inner_ear (12) -> teal_inner_ear (220)
create alias cyan_insides (57) -> teal_insides (33)
create alias cyan_internal (12) -> teal_internal (0)
create alias cyan_mouth (42) -> teal_mouth (112)
create alias cyan_paws (0) -> teal_paws (9)
remove implication cyan_pupils (13) -> pupils (145995)
create alias cyan_stripes (42) -> teal_stripes (90)
create alias cyan_tail_tip (12) -> teal_tail_tip (29)
create alias cyan_tex (0) -> teal_text (60)
create alias cyan_toes (2) -> teal_toes (6)

Reason: ...so uh, giving alternative option to alias everything cyan to teal for opinion wise? otherwise, make cyan recognized color with teal and blue?

the part 2 will alias the unapplied ones if it's affected

I'm going to side with cyan being closer to teal on this one. I think it's completely unnecessary to have three seperate shades of blue on the site and the main reason I suggested cyan to blue was to tie up loose ends. Despite that, I think it's more accurate to alias cyan to teal than it is to blue, as teal is also a specific type of blue rather than an entire primary color.

mothbean said:
I'm going to side with cyan being closer to teal on this one. I think it's completely unnecessary to have three seperate shades of blue on the site and the main reason I suggested cyan to blue was to tie up loose ends. Despite that, I think it's more accurate to alias cyan to teal than it is to blue, as teal is also a specific type of blue rather than an entire primary color.

it'd be more accurate to call teal a shade of cyan, with cyan being one of the primary subtractive colors (pigments), along side yellow and magenta. the HTML color "teal" (#008080) is just true cyan (#00FFFF) with 50% luminosity, although the word teal is often just used to describe shades of cyan in general.

The bulk update request #6851 (forum #393257) has been rejected by @Rainbow_Dash.

auto_moderator said:
The bulk update request #6851 (forum #393257) has been rejected by @Rainbow_Dash.

why?

sipothac said:
why?

Teal is a far cry from cyan. I'd rather just suck all these into blue and be done with it. If anything though, I'd rather pull teal into blue and leave cyan if we must.

rainbow_dash said:
Teal is a far cry from cyan. I'd rather just suck all these into blue and be done with it. If anything though, I'd rather pull teal into blue and leave cyan if we must.

teal is literally just dark cyan. they're both half-way between blue and green, it makes no sense to have one aliased to blue and one left.

sipothac said:
teal is literally just dark cyan. they're both half-way between blue and green, it makes no sense to have one aliased to blue and one left.

I'm doing the best I can. There isn't a great way to split these at all.

rainbow_dash said:
Teal is a far cry from cyan. I'd rather just suck all these into blue and be done with it. If anything though, I'd rather pull teal into blue and leave cyan if we must.

Teal is not blue. blue is not cyan. cyan is not teal. More importantly, teal is not blue. Aliasing everything to blue will just create further issues. Greener shades of teal would then be tagged blue. Why doesn't just separate cyan into it's own color and be done with it?

rainbow_dash said:
I'm doing the best I can. There isn't a great way to split these at all.

well, we need to have splits somewhere, we obviously can't have tags for every shade of every color.

with the two colors being used effectively as synonyms, I don't think it's necessary to have both cyan and teal, that'd be like having green and lime as two separate colors. and I think aliasing one of the two to blue would be like aliasing yellow to red while leaving something like chartreuse active.

I think the thing that makes the most sense to do would be to pick one, either cyan or teal and alias the remaining one to the other, and, judging by the votes that above BUR got in the short time it was active, that seems to be the common opinion.

sipothac said:
I think the thing that makes the most sense to do would be to pick one, either cyan or teal and alias the remaining one to the other, and, judging by the votes that above BUR got in the short time it was active, that seems to be the common opinion.

+1

sipothac said:

I think the thing that makes the most sense to do would be to pick one, either cyan or teal and alias the remaining one to the other, and, judging by the votes that above BUR got in the short time it was active, that seems to be the common opinion.

+1

sipothac said:
well, we need to have splits somewhere, we obviously can't have tags for every shade of every color.

with the two colors being used effectively as synonyms, I don't think it's necessary to have both cyan and teal, that'd be like having green and lime as two separate colors. and I think aliasing one of the two to blue would be like aliasing yellow to red while leaving something like chartreuse active.

I think the thing that makes the most sense to do would be to pick one, either cyan or teal and alias the remaining one to the other, and, judging by the votes that above BUR got in the short time it was active, that seems to be the common opinion.

+1

I half jokingly vote for cyan over teal because it's a cooler word

mothbean said:
+1

I half jokingly vote for cyan over teal because it's a cooler word

I kind of agree, and also it'd probably be the more accurate word, but the decision from staff over a year ago was that we were going to keep teal, and, for what it's worth, Google Trends says teal is currently more used than cyan or any analogues. I'd be more or less equally fine with either outcome.

The bulk update request #6343 (forum #388638) has been rejected by @spe.