The bulk update request #5242 is pending approval.

create implication iron_cross (239) -> hate_symbol (0)
create implication schutzstaffel_runes (0) -> hate_symbol (0)
change category ss (3) -> invalid
create implication schutzstaffel_runes (0) -> schutzstaffel (73)

Reason: Per https://e621.net/forum_topics/39026?page=1#forum_post_371187
I dunno why this hasn't ever been done before, this seems to be a tag that folks would realistically use in their blacklist.
Excluding swastika for now since it still has religious connotations in asia. Manual cleanup would be needed before implicating the tag.

Establish schutzstaffel runes and imply hate_symbol to that instead, there's always the possibility that somebody might portray an SS officer without actually using the lightning bolt or skull symbology.
Don't alias ss, disambiguate instead (Super Sonic, Super Saiyan, "straight shota", spelling "ass" incorrectly, etc.)

Hard disagree on lumping in the Iron Cross, given it's a symbol that Germany has used for hundreds of years, and still uses to this day as the crest of the Bundeswehr.

votp said:
Hard disagree on lumping in the Iron Cross, given it's a symbol that Germany has used for hundreds of years, and still uses to this day as the crest of the Bundeswehr.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr_Cross_of_Honour_for_Valour

The Bundeswehr is very much not the same organization as the Wehrmacht. I don't think it would be fair to lump it in with a hate symbol.

lafcadio said:
Establish schutzstaffel runes and imply hate_symbol to that instead, there's always the possibility that somebody might portray an SS officer without actually using the lightning bolt or skull symbology.
Don't alias ss, disambiguate instead (Super Sonic, Super Saiyan, "straight shota", spelling "ass" incorrectly, etc.)

I reckon all ss soldiers had the schutzstaffel runes, so it's redundant and would become an implication, no?

wolfmanfur said:
I reckon all ss soldiers had the schutzstaffel runes, so it's redundant and would become an implication, no?

Incorrect, the runes are a very small part of the outfit and will be absent at specific angles, at specific levels of undress, etc.
post #892678 post #894461

lafcadio said:
Incorrect, the runes are a very small part of the outfit and will be absent at specific angles, at specific levels of undress, etc.
post #892678 post #894461

Alright, that makes sense I updated the bur.

wolfmanfur said:
Excluding swastika for now since it still has religious connotations in asia. Manual cleanup would be needed before implicating the tag.

Mostly incorrect.

In at least Japanese buddhism, the Omote-Manji is counter clockwise (and means infinite mercy). The Ura-manji is clockwise like the Hakenkruez but is likewise "flat" and not tilted at a 45 degree angle. A lot of neo-nazis get the direction and angle wrong. I think it a little funny.

Additionally, the buddhist symbol is pronounced and written in anglicized sanskrit as Svastika, which may or may not merit a new tag, but the symbol is universally flat in so far as I recall all the sects of buddhism. Not tilted.

I cannot immediately speak of the western linguistics of the symbol before the victorian era, but the appropriation (and reinterpretation) of eastern religions in the increasingly industrialized colonial powers of europe, whose initial forays into democracy where injured by capitalism, was mostly made by a myriad of movements across the west, who were also under the influence of the newly invented sense of national identity. Which was then combined in their rejection of increasing urban conditions and industrial pollution with the addition of ethnicity to nationality. Britannia for the english, france for francs, etc. In deutschland, this took the form of the volk movement. They all the same held the similar belief that they were in a battle against forces that weren't the immediate barons and leaders of great commercial interests, but old and familiar Others instead.
Like the subjects of colonial lands or domestic minorities.

In all the limited exposure and availability to eastern philosophies (Like buddhism) they had, it was recontextualized to fit the new mythologies they were forming to unite a nation, as a singular people, against other, supposedly natural, enemy ethnicitices.

Which isn't to say all of the mysticism from that period was bad, because we did get Carl Jung, Khalil Gibran, Jiddu Krishnamurti and Frederich Nietzche out of it (before his sister twisted all his words to endorse anti-semitism), but it did have a negative impact as well as positive. And one of the most destructive ones was the adoption of and misuse of eastern iconography in germany to draw a parallel with a domestic, still innocent (at the time) symbol to more or less create a new religion in the form of the aryan mythology.
Which the national socialists did not entirely invent, but did elaborate on and propagate the most.
The reason for the 45 degree angle, as far as I've been informed, is that it represents Invincibility.
It thankfully did not live up to expectations.

Someone else could probably look up or explain what similar symbols mean within the native american contexts but in summation, with all fairness,

The Hakenkruez is not a religious symbol within the modern, western context that the majority of this site is focused on.

The swastika is a hate symbol and it has no other association.

letforeverdieslow said:I think it a little funny.

It thankfully did not live up to expectations.

Whoever created the SS tag - it was a very questionable decision, for reasons Lafcadio, at the very least.

This is one of those context tags, anyways. If I see said symbol on a military uniform, that's entirely different than seeing similar or identical (Because artists mix them up, too) symbol on a temple.

I was reading that schutzstaffel article and was reminded of him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_von_Hammerstein-Equord

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Koga%27s_Ninja_Trick_(Gym_Challenge_115)

peacethroughpower said:
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Koga%27s_Ninja_Trick_(Gym_Challenge_115)

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Koga%27s_Ninja_Trick_(Gym_Challenge_115%29 <-- You have to use that escape code because reasons.

All the SS stuff aside, iron_cross should not imply this either. It has quite a long history that’s not entirely, or even mostly Nazi.

alphamule said:
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Koga%27s_Ninja_Trick_(Gym_Challenge_115%29 <-- You have to use that escape code because reasons.

Easiest way is by enclosing it within < >
Example: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Koga%27s_Ninja_Trick_(Gym_Challenge_115)
Though it unfortunately doesn't work with named links.
Another workaround for the named links is to put another character at the end, like this: Koga's Ninja Trick.

---

But, getting back onto topic, I'm not really a fan of this. Most hate symbols have generally existed for a long time before they were appropriated, and some continue to. The swastika is still widely used outside of the West, and arguing that it's called a svastika or a sauwastika in those cultures is just irrelevant. An implication should work 100% of the time, and not result in Buddhist art being tagged as hate_symbol.

I'm a little dubious on the subjectivity of what actually is a hate symbol to begin with, it might seem obvious that some things are hate symbols (neo-Nazi symbols are generally a good example where people won't disagree) but there's also a reasonable amount that people disagree on. It would be interesting to see the discourse when somebody inevitably suggests implying confederate_flag to hate_symbol, or when the other side tries to do the same with acab or antifa.

And then there's the organizations that consider pepe_the_frog and the ok_sign to be hate symbols...

I just don't think it's within e621's scope to become a hate symbol database, people can blacklist politics or the tag for the symbol itself.

faucet said:
Easiest way is by enclosing it within < >
Example: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Koga%27s_Ninja_Trick_(Gym_Challenge_115)
Though it unfortunately doesn't work with named links.
Another workaround for the named links is to put another character at the end, like this: Koga's Ninja Trick.

Welp, shoot, I didn't realize that arrows worked for that problem. I've been using %XX for literally quoted characters because it just works. This looks even easier.

But, getting back onto topic, I'm not really a fan of this. Most hate symbols have generally existed for a long time before they were appropriated, and some continue to. The swastika is still widely used outside of the West, and arguing that it's called a svastika or a sauwastika in those cultures is just irrelevant. An implication should work 100% of the time, and not result in Buddhist art being tagged as hate_symbol.

I'm a little dubious on the subjectivity of what actually is a hate symbol to begin with, it might seem obvious that some things are hate symbols (neo-Nazi symbols are generally a good example where people won't disagree) but there's also a reasonable amount that people disagree on. It would be interesting to see the discourse when somebody inevitably suggests implying confederate_flag to hate_symbol, or when the other side tries to do the same with acab or antifa.

And then there's the organizations that consider pepe_the_frog and the ok_sign to be hate symbols...

I just don't think it's within e621's scope to become a hate symbol database, people can blacklist politics or the tag for the symbol itself.

Yeah, that bolded part is why I'm not really a fan of doing it 100% of the time. It ignores the context. It's actively insulting (because of trivializing) both the people that were victims, and the people that had their symbols 'borrowed'.

Said organizations consider "ACAB" to be exclusively a right-wing thing, even though it's far from it. I'll take their advice with a grain of salt.

BTW: I just a funny had a funny image of Baldur filing a trademark lawsuit over the lightning-styled S, haha. Meh, bored enough to look it up on Google images because I vaguely remember it being ironically a symbol of individualism.

faucet said:

But, getting back onto topic, I'm not really a fan of this. Most hate symbols have generally existed for a long time before they were appropriated, and some continue to. The swastika is still widely used outside of the West, and arguing that it's called a svastika or a sauwastika in those cultures is just irrelevant. An implication should work 100% of the time, and not result in Buddhist art being tagged as hate_symbol.

I'm a little dubious on the subjectivity of what actually is a hate symbol to begin with, it might seem obvious that some things are hate symbols (neo-Nazi symbols are generally a good example where people won't disagree) but there's also a reasonable amount that people disagree on. It would be interesting to see the discourse when somebody inevitably suggests implying confederate_flag to hate_symbol, or when the other side tries to do the same with acab or antifa.

And then there's the organizations that consider pepe_the_frog and the ok_sign to be hate symbols...

I just don't think it's within e621's scope to become a hate symbol database, people can blacklist politics or the tag for the symbol itself.

post #4105700
post #1213267

Pepe the Frog was initially from a comic called Boy's Club and more of a goofy stoner than a hate symbol. The far-right appropriated him for a while, but then the left (particularly streamers) appropriated him right back. While he can be used hatefully, his presence doesn't necessarily indicate a hate symbol. (The hateful people generally go for soyjaks, now.)

The OK sign was originally completely innocuous, then Nazi assholes hijacked it. It's the same old shit they've done with the swastika, albeit to a much lesser extent. To my knowledge, it hasn't been appropriated back.

You can also look at certain words, like queer and arguably dyke, to be reclaimed from previously being slurs.

I do agree that there's a large degree of subjectivity to this, though, and any hate symbols that should legitimately be tagged will have individual tags (like nazi or swastika) to denote them.

alphamule said:
Said organizations consider "ACAB" to be exclusively a right-wing thing, even though it's far from it. I'll take their advice with a grain of salt.

Which organizations have specifically said ACAB is exclusively right-wing? Do you have any pages from them or anything?

In my experience, right-wing anti-law enforcement sentiment is generally either against the FBI or Justice Department, against those present on January 6th and sovereign citizen crap. I haven't seen any of them use ACAB, specifically.

peacethroughpower said:
post #4105700
post #1213267

Pepe the Frog was initially from a comic called Boy's Club and more of a goofy stoner than a hate symbol. The far-right appropriated him for a while, but then the left (particularly streamers) appropriated him right back. While he can be used hatefully, his presence doesn't necessarily indicate a hate symbol. (The hateful people generally go for soyjaks, now.)

The OK sign was originally completely innocuous, then Nazi assholes hijacked it. It's the same old shit they've done with the swastika, albeit to a much lesser extent. To my knowledge, it hasn't been appropriated back.

You can also look at certain words, like queer and arguably dyke, to be reclaimed from previously being slurs.

I do agree that there's a large degree of subjectivity to this, though, and any hate symbols that should legitimately be tagged will have individual tags (like nazi or swastika) to denote them.

Which organizations have specifically said ACAB is exclusively right-wing? Do you have any pages from them or anything?

In my experience, right-wing anti-law enforcement sentiment is generally either against the FBI or Justice Department, against those present on January 6th and sovereign citizen crap. I haven't seen any of them use ACAB, specifically.

Pepe... haha, that reminds of the Matrix movie and how the creators called people out for twisting the meaning like with the Pepe comics.

The OK symbol thing started as a hoax then of course the media and the usual idiots made the lie real. Congrats, 4chan and bigots and their enablers, you ruined something else. :facepalm: I think like the "V" symbol, it might have certain angles meaning something entirely different. *cough*British*cough*

Bah, I think I messed up - it is skinheads, which also includes anti-fascists, according to ADL page I just got as a result. I guess it wasn't as "exclusive" as I mis-remembered. Sorry. I do know that bikers use it as well.

It is kind of funny, the difference in hating national LEAs versus local LEOs, now that you mention it.

letforeverdieslow said:
Mostly incorrect.

In at least Japanese buddhism, the Omote-Manji is counter clockwise (and means infinite mercy). The Ura-manji is clockwise like the Hakenkruez but is likewise "flat" and not tilted at a 45 degree angle. A lot of neo-nazis get the direction and angle wrong. I think it a little funny.

Additionally, the buddhist symbol is pronounced and written in anglicized sanskrit as Svastika, which may or may not merit a new tag, but the symbol is universally flat in so far as I recall all the sects of buddhism. Not tilted.

I cannot immediately speak of the western linguistics of the symbol before the victorian era, but the appropriation (and reinterpretation) of eastern religions in the increasingly industrialized colonial powers of europe, whose initial forays into democracy where injured by capitalism, was mostly made by a myriad of movements across the west, who were also under the influence of the newly invented sense of national identity. Which was then combined in their rejection of increasing urban conditions and industrial pollution with the addition of ethnicity to nationality. Britannia for the english, france for francs, etc. In deutschland, this took the form of the volk movement. They all the same held the similar belief that they were in a battle against forces that weren't the immediate barons and leaders of great commercial interests, but old and familiar Others instead.
Like the subjects of colonial lands or domestic minorities.

In all the limited exposure and availability to eastern philosophies (Like buddhism) they had, it was recontextualized to fit the new mythologies they were forming to unite a nation, as a singular people, against other, supposedly natural, enemy ethnicitices.

Which isn't to say all of the mysticism from that period was bad, because we did get Carl Jung, Khalil Gibran, Jiddu Krishnamurti and Frederich Nietzche out of it (before his sister twisted all his words to endorse anti-semitism), but it did have a negative impact as well as positive. And one of the most destructive ones was the adoption of and misuse of eastern iconography in germany to draw a parallel with a domestic, still innocent (at the time) symbol to more or less create a new religion in the form of the aryan mythology.
Which the national socialists did not entirely invent, but did elaborate on and propagate the most.
The reason for the 45 degree angle, as far as I've been informed, is that it represents Invincibility.
It thankfully did not live up to expectations.

Someone else could probably look up or explain what similar symbols mean within the native american contexts but in summation, with all fairness,

The Hakenkruez is not a religious symbol within the modern, western context that the majority of this site is focused on.

The swastika is a hate symbol and it has no other association.

This post would be mistagged if I included that implication.

post #291648