Pretty sure the character despite appearances is in fact a flat chested girl, not a cuntboy.

Zed_Reanimator said:
Pretty sure the character despite appearances is in fact a flat chested girl, not a cuntboy.

I checked the source. Going back a few pages the guy mentally refers "she" so yes...I believe you are correct.

How is it so damn hard to comprehend for so many people, that Mikhaila is a fucking female, with a flat chest.

Damn!

papercat said:
How is it so damn hard to comprehend for so many people, that Mikhaila is a fucking female, with a flat chest.

Damn!

TagWhatYouSee can be a confusing principle

Solsol said:
TagWhatYouSee can be a confusing principle

Feels like it.

Even though she isn't a 'cuntboy' (that term feels outdated these days) I feel like anyone looking for one are likely find what they want in her and don't care about the specifics. Moreso since I intentionally don't really do the nipple placement the more female way.

Hudson said:
@Routganan: @Everyone: This is how the tags are supposed to be, as I have publicly elaborated. Please do not change the tags back to male, lest this will invoke a record on your profile.

But it's a flatchested female. Yes I know not to invoke the wrath of admins but ... Y'know the tag what you see thing is confusing. Please understand that.

Mikhalia has never looked like a cuntboy to me. That's not a male build. Stop being unobservant.

Hudson said:
Outside information has absolutely no weight in tagging genders. We only tag what we see, hence the policy TWYS (also see TWYS [explained]) ).

There also exists a series of gender flowcharts which you can use to determine the gender. I've run through all 3 charts multiple times (one example) and ended on cuntboy every time. There's a vagina present, the torso is masculine, breasts are flatchested with the nipples more to the side rather than the center and the face is also fairly masculine.

For these reasons, this post needs to be tagged as cuntboy, which I've changed the tags to.

That flowchart supports flat chested female. She has a feminine body type. But you know, I guess I should leave it to you to change it back, since you're an admin.

I disagree with the torso being masculine, as she has a well defined hourglass figure, and breasts NORMALLY have nipples towards the sides on women, so that's anatomically correct regardless of gender. The face looks female to me too. Pointed chin, eyelashes. Here's what a cuntboy really looks like:
https://e621.net/post/show/964218/

Siral_Eurgh-xan said:
No. It is not a female. A female, regardless of a flat chest , has a rounder chest area. A male, regardless of muscles , has a more square/edged chest. Even with the age difference provided, the chest shape remains the same until you grow old and lose your defining shapes.

If you want to prove it to yourself, look through all of the Cuntboy and all of the flat_chest female to see how this image applies for Cuntboy.

I don't see what you mean. What is a "rounder chest area"? Are you talking about the shoulders?

...heck, looking at these posts, a lot of them could be in either category, or are obviously using outside information.

Siral_Eurgh-xan said:
Pecs. The areas where the upper ribs are to the shoulders.

Oh. Well no that's not consistent in established tagging at all. Unless by "round" you mean "has tiny boobs".

Siral_Eurgh-xan said:
Do you not see where the cuntboy's edge is? The sharper and more linear pecs? Vs the rounder female's breast area, the Cuntboy has lines and edges. flat chested means they don't have outward breasts, not they don't have curves.

There aren't sharper and more linear pecs in this image, that's for sure. There's one errant line, but the shading implies the rounded shape you're talking about.

It's kindof pointless to argue about sharper/rounder lines in a fully shaded image anyway. This isn't lineart, or a sketch. Those are muscles, they always behave the same physically based on how much mass is there. Now, bone structure, THAT is definitely something to talk about in regards to gender.

Siral_Eurgh-xan said:
The line is at a diagonal towards the center of the ribs. It does curve, but it's too soft to be a female curve. It then juts straight back up towards the clavicle. The opposite side then has just a straight edge towards the armpit. That is against the clavicle line that females lack, and the curve towards the armpit area

You can also tell by the shoulders, neck, and collarbone. They're larger/thicker than a female.

I guess I can kindof see what you're saying, but I've also seen far more manly chests on females in real life and in art, so in my opinion there are enough feminine elements in other places to indicate female overall.

Shiitake said:
There aren't sharper and more linear pecs in this image, that's for sure. There's one errant line, but the shading implies the rounded shape you're talking about.

It's kindof pointless to argue about sharper/rounder lines in a fully shaded image anyway. This isn't lineart, or a sketch. Those are muscles, they always behave the same physically based on how much mass is there. Now, bone structure, THAT is definitely something to talk about in regards to gender.

I appreciate you stanning for Mik but I designed her not to be a feminine flat-chested pettanko but more of an androgyn with a female base with vaguely masculine parts that, on a whim, I can go back and forth on.

If you want to point at specifics in regards to musculature or line work... man... I'm not consistent enough for that the be concrete proof. What I will say is that she is for sure a female who is meant to look like a feminine male. What that means is up to the viewer. Although I don't like the term 'c-boy' I won't fight the community if that is what they determined she is in a given picture.

If you were to ask me I would say what she is changes depending on how I feel. That in turn translates to how she feels in-character, so she is all of the above as the viewer decides to define her, but internally she identifies as none consistently, a fact that plays no part in tagging.

@Hudson Does the fact that on a previous page of this comic it is established that the character is female affect the tagging on this page?

post #859032

Likewise, does the other pages of the comic being tagged female have any bearing on the tagging on these last few pages?

The problem stems from the fact that this character has an established gender on multiple websites, and is in a pool where accepted tags have the character listed as a flat chested female. If you were to contest this picture then you would have to change the tagging on every picture of this character from your arguments as the design of the character has not changed over the years. There are cases of solidly established character gender, this is one of those cases.

May not have breasts, but she does have a more feminine quality. I'm pretty sure that alone qualifies, according to this how to.

"Usually smaller in proportion to masculine characters, wide hips and pelvis, more arched eyebrows, smaller hands/feet, breasts, body fat distributed to lower/mid torso and thighs ("pear shape")."

No pear shape, but the form is smooth, the hips are a bit emphasized, eyebrows are arched, eyelashes are thick, etc..

Again, leave the gender tags alone. Changing it will warrant a record.

still prefer the cuntboy option.

You all need Jesus

If I call a picture of a melon a lemon, is it a lemon? No, it isn't. This is the approach we have used for tagging on this site for years and it isn't going to change anytime soon. What other images depict has no bearing on what this image depicts. Images stand alone and what you see in the post itself is what gets tagged.

I don't care if you like it. I care if you follow it.

StrikerTheHedgefox said:
The TWYS rule is bullshit in a lot of ways, and needs to be revised.

If you have a better idea on how we should carry out our tagging policy, feel free to create a forum about it.

Mikhaila is not a cuntboy you fucking twats.

And don't be rude.

Those things don't matter. The post itself is all that matters.

We have already ruled on what the correct gender tag is to be, and those who change it from what it is meant to be (cuntboy in this case) will get a record. This was stated twice before you did anything here.

Further: Tagging Abuse / Tagging Vandalism

>Removing a valid tag, either as part of a dispute/argument, or to place one that is not correct

Thus you got a record. You knew exactly what you were doing despite several comment warnings against doing what you did anyway. Tough.

Whether or not you like it is not my problem. Whether or not you follow it, is.

StrikerTheHedgefox said:
If anything, Ambiguous Gender should be the tag, not cuntboy, (or both female and cuntboy, which is what I did until I got fucked for it) if we're going to follow the TWYS rules.

Ambiguous gender doesn't get tagged for characters with visible genitals. Quoting the Wiki:

"Used when the gender of a character in the image is not apparent from the image (no genitals or other clues are visible) [...]"

This whole thing wreaks of someone wanting to force their own views/fetish upon a character that already has an established gender.

With TWYS, there's not something such as an "established gender." With TWYS, genders aren't set in stone on e621 just because a certain character is known as a male/female/etc elsewhere. Genders are purely decided by vision. Disengage your knowledge from your vision when tagging posts. The only exception would be a character's name.

StrikerTheHedgefox said:

Also, it wasn't always like that. There was a point in time where certain certifiable information could take precedence in cases of ambiguity.

You joined 2012, the rules on tagging have been like this since 2010.

NotMeNotYou said:
You joined 2012, the rules on tagging have been like this since 2010.

I recall at least a brief period of time where one could defer to the artist if it was ambiguous enough a tag could go either way.

Since tags are used for searching, I would like to see multiple tags be used if it's feasible someone would want to see this image with such a tag.

Also, Mikhaila doesn't have a very masculine build. Maybe muscular_female though.

Failing all else though, I think it would at least be appropriate to tag flat_chest here

Hudson said:
@Routganan: @Everyone: This is how the tags are supposed to be, as I have publicly elaborated. Please do not change the tags back to male, lest this will invoke a record on your profile.

Do it, I am still changing the tags to female. She's not a cuntboy.

Changed the tags, fite me

The tagging system on this site is complete bullshit. I can show countless comics just like this one with "cuntboy" appearing characters, that were still labeled as "female" because they were established as females previously in the comic. I would also like to note that all of her pictures are labeled as "female." Which means everyone is clearly using outside knowledge to tag her pictures. Yet you aren't going through and changing every single tag on those pictures. You are fighting over a picture from an already established comic.
And I also don't find it ok for staff to abuse their power and expect respect. I don't care if this is a furry site, power abuse isn't how you earn respect. Threatening isn't how you earn respect. I don't care if I get a mark because it only proves me right.

EightyNine said:

I think I covered everything about THAT argument.

No it's not. Most people seem to have a solid grasp of it.

Feel free, but do it on your own time. If it's even applicable, that is - given your hangups, I doubt it.

No, you are fighting over the picture.

I am fairly certain the site administration does not care for your respect when this is the behavior you present yourself with on this site.

It isn't threatening, it's stating the obvious in terms of following site rules - and the repercussions of knowingly and repeatedly failing to do so.

No.

Wanna see me give a fuck? Seems pretty stupid to tag an already established character as something different half way through the comic without a solid reason. And like I said, give me a mark. I seriously don't care. I will edit the tags again. Fite me

Crystal_the_Glaceon said:
The tagging system on this site is complete bullshit. I can show countless comics just like this one with "cuntboy" appearing characters, that were still labeled as "female" because they were established as females previously in the comic. I would also like to note that all of her pictures are labeled as "female." Which means everyone is clearly using outside knowledge to tag her pictures. Yet you aren't going through and changing every single tag on those pictures. You are fighting over a picture from an already established comic.

Not how TWYS works.

And I also don't find it ok for staff to abuse their power and expect respect. I don't care if this is a furry site, power abuse isn't how you earn respect. Threatening isn't how you earn respect. I don't care if I get a mark because it only proves me right.

So leave.

*Currently watching the comments while eating popcorn.* Hey. I've learnt my lesson. I'm just watching the fireworks here.

Please refer to this. https://e621.net/post/show/354217/anthro-butt-dunkleosteus-female-flat_chested-hybri

skezzix said:
Please refer to this. https://e621.net/post/show/354217/anthro-butt-dunkleosteus-female-flat_chested-hybri

Not relevant. Tagging goes by post, not by character.

Too many fucks being given in this post.

And over a CUNTBOY for gods sake!

DoomFurry said:
Too many fucks being given in this post.

And over a CUNTBOY for gods sake!

I'd give plenty of fucks to a cuntboy ;-)

Needs boobs or penis. Even an A- cup would make me happy.

Ratte said:
Not relevant. Tagging goes by post, not by character.

Well, nothing in the post indicates there is any intersex character present. This character has a myriad of feminine features and not a single masculine feature. Therefore, there is nothing to suggest, indicate or imply she is a "cuntboy," and all claims otherwise are wishful thinking, of which tagging does not rely on.

Ratte said:
The character is a cuntboy by our gender tagging standards. I don't care if you like it, but it is what has been decided by administration and thus you are expected to follow it. This goes for the other posts you have mistagged as well. Keep this in mind.

"An intersex character with a masculine body type...Masculine characteristics may include wide shoulders, narrow hips, musculature, jaw line, facial hair, etc....Although breasts exclude tagging cuntboy, a lack of breasts in and of itself is not a reliable indicator.... Not to be confused with:

flat_chested"

I have read the tagging standards, and have acted accordingly. She physically lacks any of the masculine traits cited on this website's cuntboy page. I.e.: Your tagging standards. But please, if administration has reached a decision, I would like to hear the details, namely what traits I missed on this image or what traits are missing from the page describing cuntboys that exist on this image.

Regardless, I understand the point that even if she technically appears more female than cuntboy to some, to others she appears to be a cuntboy more than a female. In the interest of making sure viewers see posts they search for, I can see that my earlier attempt at fixing the tagging would deprive those trying to search for cuntboy images of finding this image, which may likely suit their tastes. To that end, I agree with you and will stop altering any cuntboy and/or intersex tagging of this character.

Ratte said:
The character is a cuntboy by our gender tagging standards. I don't care if you like it, but it is what has been decided by administration and thus you are expected to follow it. This goes for the other posts you have mistagged as well. Keep this in mind.

Wait whut? My bad then I guess, I looked at the tags and instantly went "Oh that's wrong..." Didn't realize people are calling her a cuntboy though so, my bad I guess?

I'll set it back in if you want, but it is weird and pretty wrong calling her a cuntboy, messes with people who have blacklists for actual cuntboys.

so the picture will forever be tagged WRONG because of a stupid broken tagging rule? how is that justified or correct? shouldnt it be more... tag what is fact than tag what you see?

sashapony said:
so the picture will forever be tagged WRONG because of a stupid broken tagging rule? how is that justified or correct? shouldnt it be more... tag what is fact than tag what you see?

Convenience > correctness

What is more important to the site, as a business decision.
Showing ten people a picture, based on research and insider knowledge, or showing a thousand people something that matches their search results most closely?

Throwing a hissy fit won't make anybody swing your side.

ok, if we get the artist to make it female, then would it be a solid thing because making it cuntboy is not only pissing me off but it confused me greatly at first and had to searching just to see if she was cuntboy or female.

So, apparently this whole comic by tsampikos has become a huge cluster of debate, I've been following this comic for a while, and all I've seen is this huge debate of whether she's a cuntboy or a female.

I've learnt my lesson on not to mess with those gender tags, due to the TWYS, I've made my mistake on looking at outside information to identify a character's gender and I know, people will make those mistake.

So would it be so hard to just listen to an admin's say and just leave it alone? There's no reason to publicly argue about something like this if the admins have already spoken.

I don't care what tag is used, just keep it consistent across the pages of the pool. The character hasn't changed genders, so why have the tags?

Does this qualify for being able to be tagged lol_comments cause whew... A shitstorm blew here harder than Katrina...

Maybe e621 needs some kind of script to auto-tag anything already tagged with mikhaila, looks like history has a tendency to repeat itself with this entity-of-well-debated-gender.

the real question is: can we have more new pages??!!

Mik is a confirmed Female ffs stop changing the tags

Mutisija said:
i really suggest going through the comments admins have left on this post

My bad, I didn't check the the roles of the users commenting on the post when i should have but, in the favor of sanity, following the gender flowcarts , this in reality means that it is based on what one sees, while one person may see a masculine body type, others may see a feminine body type with a simple flat chest and so on following the chart. Its all based on a user by user perspective.

next time i'll make sure to check and see if an admin has made a "tag ruling" before i edit

Mutisija said:
i really suggest going through the comments admins have left on this post

my fucking black list keeps stopping these from showing up, and I'm sure others are having the same problem. When the tag guidelines are Being more of a problem then a help, something needs to change. As it is this is all fucking bullshit. I wouldn't look at that build and think male. I would look and not know what gender until I saw lower down. The torso and face have characteristics of both genders and it honestly should be more of an "at your discretion" thing then any kind of one person decides rule

Holy sandy balls this comment section is a train wreck.

Only reason people argue is because they think a female or a cuntboy is more attractive. The reason TWYS is implemented, is so people can avoid things that don't match their preferences(I.E some people perceive this as a cuntboy and find it unappealing) - If you know what you know, ignore the tags and fap away. Your brain knows, and your dick knows, so why debate over it?

T H E . R I D E . N E V E R . E N D S

Who'll get b& next?

Hudson said:
@Routganan: @Everyone: This is how the tags are supposed to be, as I have publicly elaborated. Please do not change the tags back to male, lest this will invoke a record on your profile.

"Tag what you see" is bullshit because then Safe posts cannot theoretically be given a gender as the genitals are not visible. In addition to that, for a site that claims to respect the artist's opinion, you all sure throw their opinion to the wind at the earliest discretion. Tsampikos says Mikhaila is a girl, that should be the final say. Not what some admin says.

PhoenixSenpai said:
"Tag what you see" is bullshit because then Safe posts cannot theoretically be given a gender as the genitals are not visible. In addition to that, for a site that claims to respect the artist's opinion, you all sure throw their opinion to the wind at the earliest discretion. Tsampikos says Mikhaila is a girl, that should be the final say. Not what some admin says.

This is old news dude.

What if, without touching the tags, we add the description "Actually a girl"

That way we can be correct without breaking the rules :D

This whole thread is a big example of why I use an ironic avatar for this god forsaken site lol

Hudson said:
Outside information has absolutely no weight in tagging genders. We only tag what we see, hence the policy TWYS (also see TWYS [explained]) ).

There also exists a series of gender flowcharts which you can use to determine the gender. I've run through all 3 charts multiple times (one example) and ended on cuntboy every time. There's a vagina present, the torso is masculine, breasts are flatchested with the nipples more to the side rather than the center and the face is also fairly masculine.

For these reasons, this post needs to be tagged as cuntboy, which I've changed the tags to.

former staff?... I can see why now.

Jesus, reading though all this really makes me sympathize with those people who just want to merge cuntboy and flat_chested + female and be done with that tagging flip-flop. Not saying we should do it, but... this has been going on for years, is it ever going to stop?

Fifteen said:
Jesus, reading though all this really makes me sympathize with those people who just want to merge cuntboy and flat_chested + female and be done with that tagging flip-flop. Not saying we should do it, but... this has been going on for years, is it ever going to stop?

I suggest grabbing some popcorn and settling in for the long haul. Internet flame wars can last quite a while; and the grudges? Even longer.

Holy shit..... This is like the ultimate soap opera of comment sections... I fucking love it :D

Is this comic dead?

I wish there was moar ^^

frenzy1 said:
I wish there was moar ^^

Don't worry someone else will say something stupid and everyone will get in another dick measuring contest.

StrikerTheHedgefox said:
> Implying I haven't been on the site since longer than that.

That comeback took you a year and a half to come up with?

I've read through this entire youtube styled comment section and am utterly amazed that absolutely no one has said this, so I'm gonna say it: STOP ASSUMING HER GENDER. #TRIGGERED

This post right here.
This petty bullshit power Trip of the admins is exactly why I have never tagged, nor will ever tag any post on this website.

"Hello, *name here*,

Welcome to Comment 94! of post #965929

You may recognize me from this comment.
I've decided to open up shop in another controversial comment section to expand business and showcase my wares.

So, would anyone be interested in a snack or beverage?...lube?"

Female, cuntboy whatever. It's still a adorable and hot looking character

papercat said:
How is it so damn hard to comprehend for so many people, that Mikhaila is a fucking female, with a flat chest.

Damn!

Because she has a male counterpart named Mikhail, who is quite girly.

Personally I don't see the point of this kind of argument, though it seems like it stopped :/
People who like flat-chest females would see this as s flat-chest female, and people who like cuntboys would see this as a cuntboy. Why is that something so hard? Can't you just add both tags since you really can identify her as both ways by look?
Well, it's just my little opinion :3

My God I have read this entire comment section and WOW just WOW holy fuck man this is why I don't touch tags on any post unless I feel like it needs to be done which I haven't done in a long time after an accidental tag cleanse 😁 which was my B

PS: I know this is old but Ratte and other Admins you guys are awesome I originally didn't like the tag change of Cuntboy to Andromorph but I am getting used to it now

Zed_Reanimator said:
Pretty sure the character despite appearances is in fact a flat chested girl, not a cuntboy.

>thats a chick

my day is ruined and my dissapintment is immeasurable

hydroblitz said:
So, apparently this whole comic by tsampikos has become a huge cluster of debate, I've been following this comic for a while, and all I've seen is this huge debate of whether she's a cuntboy or a female.

I've learnt my lesson on not to mess with those gender tags, due to the TWYS, I've made my mistake on looking at outside information to identify a character's gender and I know, people will make those mistake.

So would it be so hard to just listen to an admin's say and just leave it alone? There's no reason to publicly argue about something like this if the admins have already spoken.

The problem has been because of how due to TWYS, three of the pages are marked as "Male/Male", which is on my Tag Blacklist.

This has made the Comic UNREADABLE to me, as it means that in order to read it, I need to Disable my Blacklist.

Cuntboy is one thing... But when the tags are locked and you literally are forced to fuck around with your own Blacklist, this is where TWYS stops being helpful, and start becoming a Problem, moreso when the ones who locked the tags did so maliciously.

solsol said:
TagWhatYouSee can be a confusing principle

Because here, it isn't really "tag what you see"; It's "tag what the mods see". It's never been anything but. If you tag what YOU see, you get a dick in the eye.

still female, suck my dick :)

You people really got nothing better to be arguing about? God damn.

I like how everyone here is wrong

bruh i just want to see tags but there's a lot of shit

teakatt said:
bruh i just want to see tags but there's a lot of shit

Yea

I find it funny that most (apart from NMNY) of the staff involved with the flat chested female vs andromorph shitshow are now former staff