Jesus, that is a major OUCH moment.

Keith...you suck.

The feels are strong with this one

"Why weren't you there?" 🐙

purpledragon2020 said:
Wait, so Keith was already drinking BEFORE the accident and mom died? Or in her pain did Serah instinctively call out for mom, forgetting that she was gone.

The latter.

Hang on... one month after the accident, Keith probably lost part of his ear from it (and maybe his tail, though we saw in a picture taken before the accident that half if it was missing then so I don't know,) so it's very likely he sustained injuries and is on pain medication. Add alcohol and you get a very depressing situation of downward spirals and neglect. Real irresponsible of him if this is the case. Serah has a right to her grudge. Even if not, just the alcohol, and that much! Yikes

xdraconianx said:
The latter.

I would hope so but the "wouldn't answer" instead of "couldn't answer" threw me a little.

purpledragon2020 said:
I would hope so but the "wouldn't answer" instead of "couldn't answer" threw me a little.

In the spirit of how a burned out light "won't" turn on. It has nothing to do with whether or not the light desires to shine, but no matter how many times you flip the switch, there's nothing there to work it.

Well, that was maudlin. Time for more coffee until that goes away.

A little piece of my heart is dead Right now...

purpledragon2020 said:
Wait, so Keith was already drinking BEFORE the accident and mom died? Or in her pain did Serah instinctively call out for mom, forgetting that she was gone.

Did you not read it? She said she called out for mom only to remember she wouldn’t answer.

ironhorse said:
People occasionally drink too much ... that does not make them a drunk ... OK maybe Kieth wasn't the perfect dad, nobody is perfect. Seems Serah is trying shift blame to Kieth for HER decision to have sex with her brother ... She made her own choice to have sex with Seb .. she could have said NO. But in all reality this is how the story goes, and that's why I follow it.

The point she's trying to make is they grew up with him being unreliable. And this moment of her needing him was probably a key turning point where she realized "i have to solve my own problems. I cant count on him to be there for me. So in the earlier page where he says, "i just want to be there for you too, like i always have" it triggered her because: "like always?" He wasnt always there for them. While it is possible theres the relationship with seb was a result of them relying on each other instead of him, i dont think thats what she's trying to convey that particular point to him.

yer saw that coming ..
he was cold out wasted,
seb would be the one that would be coming down to help her out in like 10 minutes then they would rely on each other after that

the feels for this page.. hit home hard.
lernt never to rely on an alcho, ever.. at the same age to

crayontail01 said:
Keith...you suck.

We really can't blame him, just imagine his situation, the booze wasn't the solution, wasn't something good to do, but we can't blame him, he lost the love of his life, Not that it was okay for him to be drunk. But I understand the situation.

Hope Sebastien heard the crash and Serah's call.

crayontail01 said:
Keith...you suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE3qK0QWv80

ironhorse said:
First: thank you for allowing my comment to remain readable ...
To respond to your point .. regardless of the problems, her decisions are on her .. that's the problem these days, it's easier to blame someone else. Time for her to face reality.

Serah isn't blaming Keith for anything, she's making a point he wasn't as "there" and reliable as he thinks he was. In many ways Keith denying reality, Jayden already made the point he needs let this play out and accept this might no go the way he wants. The more he tries to control the situation the more he just pushes the twins to be together out of sheer defiance.

crayontail01 said:
Keith...you suck.

Considering her age and how Serah first called for her mom before remembering she's dead, this could have happened shortly after the accident which is probably the highest point of Keith's grief and where he began drinking. Now I'm not saying that's an excuse, and Serah hurting herself and him being passed out definitely sucks, but saying that Keith sucks would be a bit harsh since unfortunately a lot of grieving people turn to alcohol to try and numb the pain. Just hopefully after hearing Serah talk about this, Keith does try to better himself in being there for his kids.

johnwolfshepard said:
We really can't blame him, just imagine his situation, the booze wasn't the solution, wasn't something good to do, but we can't blame him, he lost the love of his life, Not that it was okay for him to be drunk. But I understand the situation.

We absolutely can blame him. Understanding does not equate to absolution. It doesn't matter how depressed he was. His child was hurt and crying for him, and he had put himself in a state where he couldn't help her. If it had been his prescribed pain killers from the damage from the accident, fine. That would be acceptable. Terrible for her, but he would have at least been following the doctor's orders to heal. No matter how much sympathy or empathy can be mustered for his grief, he failed to put the living, who were relying on him, before the dead, who he had already failed.

Imagine for a moment that that fall had gone a little differently. Imagine that she'd broken an arm and a rib, instead of busting up her ankle. And he'd grogged his way out of his drunken stupor to find his child, dead because of an injury that could have been tended. Insensate from pain, unable to fully comprehend that she'd punctured a lung and unable to call for help, having drowned in her own blood. Imagine the agony that would have caused him. And, worse, her brother. Who, by the way, is clearly the one that responds and gets her medical help.

A fall down a flight of stairs is loud. That he was drunk enough not to wake up from that, alone, is entirely his fault. And blame rests fully on his shoulders. The only reason, probably, based on the data currently available, that he didn't already know is that she probably didn't actually break anything. She probably twisted her ankle, which can hurt like all bloody fuck, but was over all fine. And lucky as shit.

dragonorb13 said:
We absolutely can blame him. Understanding does not equate to absolution. It doesn't matter how depressed he was. His child was hurt and crying for him, and he had put himself in a state where he couldn't help her. If it had been his prescribed pain killers from the damage from the accident, fine. That would be acceptable. Terrible for her, but he would have at least been following the doctor's orders to heal. No matter how much sympathy or empathy can be mustered for his grief, he failed to put the living, who were relying on him, before the dead, who he had already failed.

Imagine for a moment that that fall had gone a little differently. Imagine that she'd broken an arm and a rib, instead of busting up her ankle. And he'd grogged his way out of his drunken stupor to find his child, dead because of an injury that could have been tended. Insensate from pain, unable to fully comprehend that she'd punctured a lung and unable to call for help, having drowned in her own blood. Imagine the agony that would have caused him. And, worse, her brother. Who, by the way, is clearly the one that responds and gets her medical help.

A fall down a flight of stairs is loud. That he was drunk enough not to wake up from that, alone, is entirely his fault. And blame rests fully on his shoulders. The only reason, probably, based on the data currently available, that he didn't already know is that she probably didn't actually break anything. She probably twisted her ankle, which can hurt like all bloody fuck, but was over all fine. And lucky as shit.

This. Understanding "why" someone decided to drink doesn't absolve them from the results of their decision to drink. Just like Keith is trying to tell the twins that there are consequences to their relationship, Sarah is telling him there are consequences to his choice to drink when his children needed him.

I get it, his wife died, but his kids were still alive and needed him to be there for them and he wasn't. But Seb was there to step up and be the support his sister needed when no one else was there, and more than likely that's where the relationship started.

All these little moments of Seb being there and being her rock when she felt alone and isolated and in pain.

And then Seb not really having time for anything else, taking care of his sister and being around her all the time and then going through puberty with her there and her clearly not taking any steps to be modest around him and, bam, all the criteria you need for a relationship.

While I can understand Keith's depression and why he turned out the way he did, that still doesn't absolve him of his parental duties. I'm not going to say the dude is irredeemable or the Worst Father In The World and call for his head on a pike. Dude was like he was out of grief and misfortune, but frankly from what I've seen of him he's not really a good father, either, and has very thin ice to stand on from a parental perspective. There's other approaches he could and probably should take for this, but his License To Be A Father I feel has been revoked by the two of them for a while, and it'll take a while to earn that back. Though I DO think it can be earned back.

johnwolfshepard said:
We really can't blame him, just imagine his situation, the booze wasn't the solution, wasn't something good to do, but we can't blame him, he lost the love of his life, Not that it was okay for him to be drunk. But I understand the situation.

No need to imagine, we know the situation. Of course we can blame him. The least he could have done would have been to have somebody else look after the kids if he can't control himself.

He failed to even do the bare minimum in this situation.

The feeling of calling out for someone desperately who just isnt around anymore, painnnn. that realization is painfull, the realization that her mom will never be there to comfort her again

thisorthat said:
We never actually saw the accident; they could have been almost perfectly fine, but something like a roadside fire hydrant could have impaled/crushed the mother if the car rolled over. That’d definitely be something that one would want escapism from; seeing a loved one’s body in such a state.

Also, we can’t see his ears and tail yet- maybe he lost them later? Possibly an oversight by the artist, though.

On one hand you are right but on the flashback part we saw an incoming truck ready to T-bone the family car on the mother's side....sooooooooooo.

I wanna hug her so bad and help her

moonlitsoul said:
Jesus, that is a major OUCH moment.

fuckingggggggggggg COUCH moment.

i'm tired

fuckin' I was just guessing a few pages back

First panel is just this and I can't unsee it.

While drinking to drown your sorrows isn't an excuse, it is sadly pretty common for grieving people that just lost their loved one so suddenly/violently.

Still, this also shows us that even if they want to cope with their sorrows, their actions do have severe consequences. And as a father, Keith messed up by getting carried away with his drinking when his kids also needed him to be there the most.

Now obviously he may have improved later on and toned down the drinking, but scars like this take a long time to heal, especially if you never confront the person that did them to you.

shavrano said:
Gees, I hate how way too many of this page's comments are "critics" rambling on about some gripes they have or disliked comments of people trying to defend Keith, guys, it's a commic, don't expect 100% realism and shit, just enjoy the comic, suspend your disbelief, and if you can't, then whatever, I would be ok with it if it eas just small things like "the story went a little bit too fast" or "there are minor inconsistencies in the story", but whole essays about how it is unrealistic is not necessary

Maybe actually read the story before you complain about people discussing it.

Bad_parenting

That first panel is rough, man.

Also Keith had a bad moment. He’s human and it’ll hardly be his last one, but it’s understandable that Serah kept this memory close. It’s just a sucky situation.

billybobbybooby said:
That first panel is rough, man.

Also Keith had a bad moment. He’s human and it’ll hardly be his last one, but it’s understandable that Serah kept this memory close. It’s just a sucky situation.

He's human? That explains why he sucks so much, i thought he was a cat man.

Serah: I See a little silhouette of a man

sekriess said:
He's human? That explains why he sucks so much, i thought he was a cat man.

*squints*
I need coffee.

Only her Mother passed, but she must feel like she lost both parents.

Poor girl. No worries, Seb is on the way!

markmoonfang said:
It doesn't permit or excuse incest.

Two teenagers in the same room, one of which has a potential porn addiction, and the other casually walks around the bedroom in her underwear.
Keith is there but is drowning himself in prostitutes and alcohol rather than taking an active role in his family's life. No moral compass.
Keith is what passes as their role model, Keith is what they see every day and he's usually passed out on the couch.
Unavailable until he needs to be sober, and even then he does have a seemingly high lack of interest in their lives...
He didn't even seem all that interested until he thought Seb was dating a girl, and started looking inward, giving tidbits of advice, too little to late.
They might have pulled the trigger, but they didn't load the gun and leave it on the kitchen table.

markmoonfang said:
Jayden is in the wrong for that. He can't just let it play out as it's just as much as permitting it.

You know what? I'm legitimately curious. What is your suggestion on how Keith should proceed in order to keep his children, who are two consenting adults, who have moved out of his house, and are seeking to take control of their own lives and futures?

Assuming you found yourself in this exact same situation (no 'I'd never let this happen in the first place' deflection), what would you do in this scenario to both stop your children from engaging in incest, and maintain a positive relationship with them moving forward that also wouldn't be a criminal act? Remember, Serah and Seb are adults and no longer dependants of his.

Edit: Fixed a punctuation error.

markmoonfang said:
Jayden is in the wrong for that. He can't just let it play out as it's just as much as permitting it.

That's a him problem, the twins are basically already adults. This was their graduating year.

This scene hits way too close... Went through something similar when my dad died when I was 18. There's no real way to describe how cold the realization that the person you're desperately calling out for can never answer is.

His depression and drinking is understandable but this is still awful for him to be that far gone that she fell basically in the next room and he couldn't hear. It really sucks how parents in these situations can't be allowed to grieve or close up the way others can but he still has a duty to his kids he failed here. Really sucks, especially because this isn't the result of him being evil or malicious or angry or anything towards them, he drowned himself and in turn caused a lot more damage to her.

I'm wondering how he doesn't seem to have had knowledge of this though. She would likely be showing signs of injury past this and he never noticed? Did he immediately start drinking when he got home each night and just not pay attention? Was it something the kids hid from him? Seeming like it could be the former most likely sadly.

crayontail01 said:
Keith...you suck.

He lost the love of his life in a car accident where he was behind the wheel. How could we reasonably expect him to be a great dad right now?

His life sucks and the support network around them sucks.

numbersnumbers142 said:
He lost the love of his life in a car accident where he was behind the wheel. How could we reasonably expect him to be a great dad right now?

His life sucks and the support network around them sucks.

That is one of the most important moments to be the best father you can be. Your kids lost their mother, you need to do your best to be THERE for them. It's not acting as if nothing happened, it's taking care of them in her absence and not getting drunk till you're out

purpledragon2020 said:
I would hope so but the "wouldn't answer" instead of "couldn't answer" threw me a little.

"Would" is the past tense of "will". That means she won't answer. But in the past. Because she was dead.

i give the dad -50 points. Their daughter gets hurt, and he is passed out drunk even to notice. He deserves to lose his kids with that kind of negligence

markmoonfang said:
Tell them they are both going to therapy or else I'm getting the law involved.

Here are my options:

I permit them to commit mentally and emotionally damaging activities that will put them at regular risk of legal and social consequences because I want them to remain in my life. That's selfish and requires I deny my own feelings on the matter.

I try to argue against it but don't take legal action if they refuse to seek professional help. So they abandon me to continue their activities that are, again, mentally and emotionally damaging. Nothing good comes from that.

I bring in a means to ensure they get the help they need because I know they need it. Eventually, they will find the actual problem and overcome it and eventually I'll have my children back and they will live healthy lives.

There's only one good option here.

I know people who have went through similar things and I promise you the only result of getting the law involved would be them hating you for the rest of your life and moving to Rhode Island where it isn't a criminal offense. GG Bad ending.

At risk of sounding like I am coming down on people with alcohol addiction, Keith is fully responsible for the state he’s in. He may be depressed but nothing absolves him of his duty and responsibility as a parent. Comparatively speaking, a broken or sprained ankle is a minor thing. As others have stated, the injury could have been much MUCH worse. Broken neck, punctured lung, concussion… while Seb probably overheard everything and is coming to investigate, it would have been up to him to call emergency services.

There could have been a fire or someone could have broken into the house. At best, the twins get out, abandoning their father to his fate. At worst, they try to get him out too, only to die themselves.

A parent’s responsibility to their underage children is unceasing, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 366 days a year.

furryryuho said:
His depression and drinking is understandable but this is still awful for him to be that far gone that she fell basically in the next room and he couldn't hear. It really sucks how parents in these situations can't be allowed to grieve or close up the way others can but he still has a duty to his kids he failed here. Really sucks, especially because this isn't the result of him being evil or malicious or angry or anything towards them, he drowned himself and in turn caused a lot more damage to her.

I'm wondering how he doesn't seem to have had knowledge of this though. She would likely be showing signs of injury past this and he never noticed? Did he immediately start drinking when he got home each night and just not pay attention? Was it something the kids hid from him? Seeming like it could be the former most likely sadly.

There is nothing wrong with grieving as a parent. Grieving does not REQUIRE alcohol.i could understand the grief. I’ve experienced it. However the alcohol and being blackout drunk is completely unacceptable.

camossdarkfly said:
At risk of sounding like I am coming down on people with alcohol addiction, Keith is fully responsible for the state he’s in. He may be depressed but nothing absolves him of his duty and responsibility as a parent. Comparatively speaking, a broken or sprained ankle is a minor thing. As others have stated, the injury could have been much MUCH worse. Broken neck, punctured lung, concussion… while Seb probably overheard everything and is coming to investigate, it would have been up to him to call emergency services.

There could have been a fire or someone could have broken into the house. At best, the twins get out, abandoning their father to his fate. At worst, they try to get him out too, only to die themselves.

A parent’s responsibility to their underage children is unceasing, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 366 days a year.

As a parent myself this sums up what it means to be a parent. There is no excuse or circumstance in the world to not put your kids well being first. Trying to force them to separate now after youve been absent from their lives for close to a decade means you've lost any ground to stand on morally. Its not a good thing realistically that theyre together but now that they are its important to understand why they are and to let them do their thing. Trying to force them apart makes things worse. Giving them full blessing isnt a good idea either. But it is possible to be there for them if they have problems of which there will be many should they stay together and actually have kids. They found comfort and trust in one another which is beautiful but at the same time a shame that these are the circumstances it came under. Let them be the adults they are and be there for them when needed is the best thing keith can do here.

Emotional Damage!

Read the whole thing in one sitting, let me tell you it's one of the best furry comics I know. It's not just that it's insanely sexy and cute, it also has unusally serious writing and amazing art, especially facial expressions. And these moments where Serah and Seb show genuine love and affection towards each other... Absolutely amazing, pure wish fulfillment.

As per Keith, he is a complex and tragic character. He genuinely cares for his children, but his addiction gets the best of him, making him fail miserably and alienating Serah and Seb. He's good natured but he's not strong enough. Hopefully he finds the strength to get himself together.

syberianlynx said:
Read the whole thing in one sitting, let me tell you it's one of the best furry comics I know. It's not just that it's insanely sexy and cute, it also has unusally serious writing and amazing art, especially facial expressions. And these moments where Serah and Seb show genuine love and affection towards each other... Absolutely amazing, pure wish fulfillment.

As per Keith, he is a complex and tragic character. He genuinely cares for his children, but his addiction gets the best of him, making him fail miserably and alienating Serah and Seb. He's good natured but he's not strong enough. Hopefully he finds the strength to get himself together.

I believe that Keith is on the path to bettering himself. I do believe that he, if only barely, understands that forcing them apart is going to cause more trouble than anything. He's still got a ton of work to do, though. I think when it comes to Seb, He and Keith won't have too much trouble reconciling when it gets down to the brass tax, it's fixing things with Serah that's gonna be the really hard part.

Keith ain't gonna like this...

markmoonfang said:
Doesn't excuse incest.

You, uh, might be in a losing battle in these circumstances.

billybobbybooby said:
You, uh, might be in a losing battle in these circumstances.

It's fine, this hill has a nice view for my gravestone.

markmoonfang said:
And?

It doesn't make it ok and doesn't mean Keith should permit it. Rhode Island is in the wrong, so is Seb and Serah.

Nah, government should stay out of what consenting adults do with each other. Imagine supporting the idea of sending state sponsored gangsters with guns after your own adult kids because they bone. Wonder how you'd feel in this scenario if, say, they loved each other to the point of resisting separation, resulting in the law you so dutifully called resorting to deadly force as they often do in domestic situations. Or even if one or both just simply decided they couldn't live without the other. Obviously the comic wont be going this dark but I have to wonder just how much more loyal you are to the state than your own children.

markmoonfang said:
I'm numb to emotional pleas. I don't care for your examples and I stand my ground.

Now let's take your "two consenting adults" to it's natural conclusion. If all that incest requires is that they be adults and consent, what about other things then?

Would you let people have parts of their bodies removed, changed permanently with the intention of it becoming a dehibilitating disability?

What about assisted suicide?

Slavery contracts? If both sides consents, why not remove their ability to do or say anything else into the future?

Dueling? Two adults consent to try and kill one another. Why not?

What would make Incest an exception to any of these besides it being sexually arousing to you?

Addindum: Before you say people don't do this, I was thinking of specific examples when I gave each example.

I accept your admission that you would not love your kids unconditionally and do, in fact, care more for the state than you would your own offspring. I'll respond earnestly one more time anyways despite you deciding to shrug off giving me the same courtesy.

1. Already happens, and if they're not involving any non-consenting parties, it's not my, and especially not some old fuck in government's place to decide. There may be cases of mental illness that should have an attempt to work through first, therapy, medication, support network, etc. However once those have been tried yes, I believe an adult can make that choice.

2. Already happens, especially in Canada. Again, a case of likely mental illness that should be worked through, and I believe the family has every right to attempt their best to stop someone from going that route. However I do not think it is the state's place to decide.

3. Revocation of consent is part of consent. AGAIN PEOPLE ALREADY DO THIS. If your contract bans the possibility of revoking consent then it is no longer an action between consenting adults and thus, enters the territory of criminality.

4. I unironically support this, with conditions. Others around them did not consent to be hit by potential crossfire. If done in a place with no possibility of hurting someone not involved which likely would take a non-zero amount of preparation and travel which gives cool-down time for the parties to rethink it before they get there then yeah, go for it.

Edit: Forgot to answer the incest section. If I had said no to anything you tried to strawman me into saying no to, it would be an exception because no one is being hurt and you have provided zero sources that it is emotionally or mentally damaging for adults to engage in. First generation incest pregnancies have irrelevant chance of birth defects but even then if you had been talking about criminalizing that we might be able to find common ground.

People still do, or have done every example you gave. I answered truthfully and consistently despite you refusing to do the same. You would not support your children when they need you, you would not love them unconditionally, and you would call the state violence apparatus on them for not hurting anyone. Evidently you would be immune to your kids' emotional pleas as much as anyone else's.

Lol, Lmao even.

moonlitsoul said:
Jesus, that is a major OUCH moment.

Really .... wow !

markmoonfang said:
Doesn't excuse incest.

Don't disagree on that. Just saying you can't blame them... okay maybe a little

> Understanding does not equate to absolution.

This is what I keep coming back to. I can sympathize with Keith, I can imagine myself or people much kinder than myself making the same mistakes in a similar situations. And in recognizing this, it's easier to stop hating him, which is necessary to reach an understanding. Empathy is a tool for understanding, much like hate and blame are tools for pushing people away. And uh, I have hope that Keith and Serah can mend their relationship and both be better for it.

I said a couple pages ago I was proud of Serah for trying her best to deescalate things. It's clear Serah still blames her father, she's not changing her mind about how shitty it was to be helpless with a drunk father, but she's also not going to let that get in the way of a possible mutual understanding, because she cares, and sees that he does. I find that commendable.

Especially considering he came in on a high horse, with big "you're going to hate me for this but it's for your own good" attitude. Keith might believe that incest is extremely bad and has to be stopped before things get inevitably worse, but he briefly let his beliefs cloud his self-awareness. He fails to realize his daughter could never see this as "tough love", because not only does she not agree with his stance on incest, she is the happiest she's been in a while and he's the one trying to end it. I believe making him understand that perspective is necessary for any semblance of a positive relationship to remain between them.

Even if he might not change his mind about incest. She's not going to debate that, because it's a distraction from the real issues between the two of them.

markmoonfang said:
I'm not under any obligation to provide sources, especially when someone a page or two back already has.

I note you make a monetary mention of mental illness but then say along the lines of "if it doesn't work" then it should be permitted. The issue here is that mental illness is not something that is just fixed. It requires regular work and continuous maintainace to keep someone mentally healthy.

Just because the antidepressants or the antischizophrenia medicine stop working doesn't mean you abandon all attempts.

Serah clearly has signs of mental illness. She regularly has these moments where she goes blank in her expression, we have signs that she was planning to sexually manipulate her brother, she uses emotional manipulation on both friends and family.

She talks about "I don't want to lose my family" but makes no attempt to connect with her father. It's clear there that she's struggling mentally between a severe antagonism towards him and her fear of seeing a family member die. As I said before, knowing that Sebastian was becoming romantically popular with girls likely pushed Serah to act to intercept.

No amount of Keith being an absent father and them relying on each other excuses what Serah has done.

Obviously you have to continue to treat mental illness, but just like with physical illness there reaches a point where the costs outweigh the benefits. Just as I don't fault someone dying of cancer from wanting to stop treatment and go peacefully, I, despite thinking suicide is one of the most horrible things to plague mankind, have a hard time finding fault in someone who has suffered with clinical depression for years and finding nothing that helps wanting a way to make it stop.

I find it silly and hard to diagnose a fictional lynx in a furry comic with mental disorders based on what are probably attempts at comedy or drama.

It's not on her to reconnect with her dad when he's been shown to be absent when she needs him. There's not an excuse on this Earth short of actually being dead for not being there when your kids need you, if you cannot find it in yourself to take comfort in still having your children and trying to step up for them after losing their mom, which she would want by the way, and instead drown yourself in alcohol because of grief your children have zero responsibility to remedy that situation. Kieth is 100% at fault for his shit relationship with them.

Plain and simple if you abandon your kids they're going to take comfort and closeness from someone, probably their sibling and you're dumpster fodder of a person if you'd sic armed police on your fucking children over it. All I'm getting is that you would probably fail the breakfast problem and are incapable of properly imagining yourself in such a situation, at least I hope so, because the alternative is that incest is so icky to you that it overrides your (seemingly absent) fatherly instinct and love for them. Personally I see bruises, mental scarring from being torn from someone you love, and possibly 9mm if you resist being torn from someone you love being MUCH worse consequences than some sibling fuckage.

Plain and simple, I do not believe in the state interfering in what adults do until such time as a consenting party revokes it, end of story. If you would put your own offspring in harms way of police rather than waiting things out you are anathema to me and we may as well stop here because I'm about to start replying with insults and memes, suck on boot leather harder chief.

One do not drink so much as to make oneself comatose by drinking if one is a responsible adult, one especially do not do it if one is responsible for others, and for sure not in front of children.
If one would get a sitter for ones children if one goes out for a while normally, then you would make sure they had some one there for them if you yourself can not be there mentally, even if you are there physically.
If one is bedridden sick, unable to function or help a child that you are responsible for, get some one to help you.
As a parent, as an adult, it is your responsibility.
Too many fail, too many have scars because of those failures.
The bottle has no friends, it is no ones friend, and will not help you.
It will only make things worse.
One drink is fine, even two is fine, but as soon as you notice you can not, or will not stop, or be able to abstain for a while, you got problems.
My father could not get completely of it, and for sure it did ruin much of his life, he was just sad.

markmoonfang said:
I'm not under any obligation to provide sources, especially when someone a page or two back already has.

I note you make a monetary mention of mental illness but then say along the lines of "if it doesn't work" then it should be permitted. The issue here is that mental illness is not something that is just fixed. It requires regular work and continuous maintainace to keep someone mentally healthy.

Just because the antidepressants or the antischizophrenia medicine stop working doesn't mean you abandon all attempts.

Serah clearly has signs of mental illness. She regularly has these moments where she goes blank in her expression, we have signs that she was planning to sexually manipulate her brother, she uses emotional manipulation on both friends and family.

She talks about "I don't want to lose my family" but makes no attempt to connect with her father. It's clear there that she's struggling mentally between a severe antagonism towards him and her fear of seeing a family member die. As I said before, knowing that Sebastian was becoming romantically popular with girls likely pushed Serah to act to intercept.

No amount of Keith being an absent father and them relying on each other excuses what Serah has done.

I'm in total agreement with that last line ... by the way I noticed the down voters like us : ) ...

markmoonfang said:
I'm numb to emotional pleas. I don't care for your examples and I stand my ground.

Now let's take your "two consenting adults" to it's natural conclusion. If all that incest requires is that they be adults and consent, what about other things then?

Would you let people have parts of their bodies removed, changed permanently with the intention of it becoming a dehibilitating disability?

What about assisted suicide?

Slavery contracts? If both sides consents, why not remove their ability to do or say anything else into the future?

Dueling? Two adults consent to try and kill one another. Why not?

What would make Incest an exception to any of these besides it being sexually arousing to you?

Addindum: Before you say people don't do this, I was thinking of specific examples when I gave each example.

I'm libertarian so... I'm fine with people doing whatever they please as long as all parties involved are consenting adults. Imposing your will on others is evil.

markmoonfang said:
And there we have the first instance of Keith actually being a bad father being shown instead of told, took you long enough author.

markmoonfang said:
Again, this took ages for the author to actually demonstrate and reads like a last minute addition due to the author not being able to express it clearly earlier.

The author has been dropping hints since Tuesday Mornings, it's not his fault that you wanted to blame everything on Serah and Serah's mom (because you're biased).

markmoonfang said:
It doesn't permit or excuse incest.

markmoonfang said:
Jayden is in the wrong for that. He can't just let it play out as it's just as much as permitting it.

markmoonfang said:
Doesn't excuse incest.

He goes to a fictional incest romance story to complain about fictional incest.

"Anon buys a can of beans.
He opens the can of beans.
There's only beans in the can.
He then goes to the store to complain that there's no tomatoes in the can of beans.
He would have also liked some salad inside.
..."

anonjohn20 said:
The author has been dropping hints since Tuesday Mornings, it's not his fault that you wanted to blame everything on Serah and Serah's mom (because you're biased).

He goes to a fictional incest romance story to complain about fictional incest.

"Anon buys a can of beans.
He opens the can of beans.
There's only beans in the can.
He then goes to the store to complain that there's no tomatoes in the can of beans.
He would have also liked some salad inside.
..."

Because I rather enjoy it.

Ratcha is one of my favorites when it comes to it. And when he came close to something like this it was fine.

Because it was played as a joke.

Black Kitten wanted to make it dramatic. Well, here comes the drama.

markmoonfang said:
When the father is no longer drunk and is trying to be there, you don't have an excuse anymore.

Keith: shown to be a fuck up the entire story.
You: "He's being a great dad!"
Serah: builds resentment for him due to his neglect.
You: "She's evil and manipulative, just like her mom (which we only saw for one scene). She's only brainwashing Seb against their perfect father."

Yep, no bias from you here. (sarcasm)

markmoonfang said:
Because I rather enjoy it.

markmoonfang said:
Now for the potential next events for me to gripe about...

...How that turns out will tell me if I should just blacklist these character names and be done with it.

One of these is not like the other. LOL

anonjohn20 said:
Keith: shown to be a fuck up the entire story.
You: "He's being a great dad!"
Serah: builds resentment for him due to his neglect.
You: "She's evil and manipulative, just like her mom (which we only saw for one scene). She's only brainwashing Seb against their perfect father."

Yep, no bias from you here. (sarcasm)

One of these is not like the other. LOL

I didn't say I enjoy this story. I said I enjoy the concept of incest. The contradiction to reality and norms.

Also, if you are going to use quotations, use actual quotes. I never said he was a 'great dad'. Leave hyperbolics to politicians and comedians.

markmoonfang said:
When the father is no longer drunk and is trying to be there, you don't have an excuse anymore.

There is no reason to ever stop trying to save someone's life if there's even a minute chance of doing so. Because if you succeed, then you can find a way to advance that onto those who follow after. To give up on a person now is to handicap those who follow after.

Now to the question of consent, I don't believe Seb can consent at all in this situation. Consent, true consent, is built off of having all the information and the capability to understand it. Seb, to me, doesn't have that.

Seb has no agency in the story. He didn't initiate anything. No, the shower wasn't him because we see Serah twice actively noting Seb's arousal. (I call back to the fact that the pair never pushed for their own rooms as evidence that Serah was obsessing over her brother and took advantage of that later on.)

No, the date wasn't initiated by Seb either. While he planned it, it was pushed by Serah first.

Worse, after the date when Serah didn't get him to say what she wanted to hear and lock him in a relationship with her, she used emotional manipulation. Rather than addressing the fact that this was DAY THREE of them in this relationship. No, them being siblings in the past is not the same as them being incestuiously active. Anymore than being work mates is a foundation for building an out of work relationship. Everything they had done up to that point was just them being sexually active.

About those sexual activities, it is heavily sided for Serah. She makes him do activities beyond just simple penetration.

Back to Seb's agency, I reiterate that he has none. Jayden, Keith. She even told him to stop hanging out with a friend. Serah has been the driving force for everything. Seb has not once raised so much as an objection to anything since their relationship started. If anything, their relationship is likely through Trauma Bonding or a Co-Dependent Relationship.

Push-pull, emotional punishment, cutting off social connections. Serah is taking a dominate role in an abusive relationship and Seb, lacking a strong father figure and feeling fulfillment from making his sister happy, is latching on to that for the fulfillment of his own self worth. Made worse by Serah needing Seb to validate her desires for her own self worth.

Mental Illness is absolutely a factor that can be used to negate someone's capability to 'consent'. Because they lack the ability to proper formulate the thoughts and ideas that are needed to do so.

The Children are not ok and they need professional treatment.

You are emotionally stunted if you think people work like that. You don't get to have years of mistakes forgiven the instant you try to be there for someone you ignored for so long, you have to earn it.

You absolutely should always try to save a life (with a few exceptions), but it is not your place to decide for someone that they cant decide enough is enough. This is such a shitty argument because people suffer for fucking decades with so many things because we're afraid to grieve. Not everyone can be saved and that fucking sucks but why is your suffering worth preventing over the person who hurts bad enough to want out of life itself? Try, absolutely please try to help people, but you simple cannot win them all.

I'm not going to bother with all the Serah blaming because it REEKS of some kind of bias that I'm way too lazy to analyze in the e621 comment section. Seb absolutely has agency, even if Serah can be a bit pushy. Also if being friends with someone before dating is seen as forming a bond with a natural progression... Why the utter fuck would knowing and living with someone for 18 YEARS, especially when the two were leaning on each other while their drunk father beat off in the corner for the last few years NOT build a greater, let alone the same level of bond. Holy balls I am done trying to sound intelligent, format properly, and debate you.

You would risk state sponsored violence against your own kids if they wienered each other because of your own prejudices, you say it's always worth trying to save a life but I've absolutely known people who killed themselves over being forcefully separated from the one they loved, you pretend to have the moral high ground despite your solution being the most dangerous, hurtful one you could possibly choose short of just honor killing them the instant you find out. The twins are naive at worst but other than that they are fine. You just ignored my scenarios while I responded to yours, you're not arguing in good faith, you don't want to get anywhere. I'm done replying to you, please shit yourself.

justloginlol said:
You are emotionally stunted if you think people work like that. You don't get to have years of mistakes forgiven the instant you try to be there for someone you ignored for so long, you have to earn it.

You absolutely should always try to save a life (with a few exceptions), but it is not your place to decide for someone that they cant decide enough is enough. This is such a shitty argument because people suffer for fucking decades with so many things because we're afraid to grieve. Not everyone can be saved and that fucking sucks but why is your suffering worth preventing over the person who hurts bad enough to want out of life itself? Try, absolutely please try to help people, but you simple cannot win them all.

I'm not going to bother with all the Serah blaming because it REEKS of some kind of bias that I'm way too lazy to analyze in the e621 comment section. Seb absolutely has agency, even if Serah can be a bit pushy. Also if being friends with someone before dating is seen as forming a bond with a natural progression... Why the utter fuck would knowing and living with someone for 18 YEARS, especially when the two were leaning on each other while their drunk father beat off in the corner for the last few years NOT build a greater, let alone the same level of bond. Holy balls I am done trying to sound intelligent, format properly, and debate you.

You would risk state sponsored violence against your own kids if they wienered each other because of your own prejudices, you say it's always worth trying to save a life but I've absolutely known people who killed themselves over being forcefully separated from the one they loved, you pretend to have the moral high ground despite your solution being the most dangerous, hurtful one you could possibly choose short of just honor killing them the instant you find out. The twins are naive at worst but other than that they are fine. You just ignored my scenarios while I responded to yours, you're not arguing in good faith, you don't want to get anywhere. I'm done replying to you, please shit yourself.

justloginlol said:
You are emotionally stunted if you think people work like that. You don't get to have years of mistakes forgiven the instant you try to be there for someone you ignored for so long, you have to earn it.

You absolutely should always try to save a life (with a few exceptions), but it is not your place to decide for someone that they cant decide enough is enough. This is such a shitty argument because people suffer for fucking decades with so many things because we're afraid to grieve. Not everyone can be saved and that fucking sucks but why is your suffering worth preventing over the person who hurts bad enough to want out of life itself? Try, absolutely please try to help people, but you simple cannot win them all.

I'm not going to bother with all the Serah blaming because it REEKS of some kind of bias that I'm way too lazy to analyze in the e621 comment section. Seb absolutely has agency, even if Serah can be a bit pushy. Also if being friends with someone before dating is seen as forming a bond with a natural progression... Why the utter fuck would knowing and living with someone for 18 YEARS, especially when the two were leaning on each other while their drunk father beat off in the corner for the last few years NOT build a greater, let alone the same level of bond. Holy balls I am done trying to sound intelligent, format properly, and debate you.

You would risk state sponsored violence against your own kids if they wienered each other because of your own prejudices, you say it's always worth trying to save a life but I've absolutely known people who killed themselves over being forcefully separated from the one they loved, you pretend to have the moral high ground despite your solution being the most dangerous, hurtful one you could possibly choose short of just honor killing them the instant you find out. The twins are naive at worst but other than that they are fine. You just ignored my scenarios while I responded to yours, you're not arguing in good faith, you don't want to get anywhere. I'm done replying to you, please shit yourself.

"Seb absolutely has agency, even if Serah can be a bit pushy."

Show me.

"Also if being friends with someone before dating is seen as forming a bond with a natural progression.."

Siblings, not friends. Dialog suggests that there was some regular sibling clashing between them prior to this.

"Why the utter fuck would knowing and living with someone for 18 YEARS, especially when the two were leaning on each other while their drunk father beat off in the corner for the last few years NOT build a greater, let alone the same level of bond."

Because they are suffering from traumas, neglect and mental stress and illness. They are not building a 'greater bond' but a worse relationship built on codependency and forming from trauma. This is not good, this is not healthy and can only end poorly. Also, as biased as I am called people's treatment of Keith is severely biased as Keith is not as bad as that is shown.

Bad yes, but not as bad.

markmoonfang said:
"Seb absolutely has agency, even if Serah can be a bit pushy."

Show me.

"Also if being friends with someone before dating is seen as forming a bond with a natural progression.."

Siblings, not friends. Dialog suggests that there was some regular sibling clashing between them prior to this.

"Why the utter fuck would knowing and living with someone for 18 YEARS, especially when the two were leaning on each other while their drunk father beat off in the corner for the last few years NOT build a greater, let alone the same level of bond."

Because they are suffering from traumas, neglect and mental stress and illness. They are not building a 'greater bond' but a worse relationship built on codependency and forming from trauma. This is not good, this is not healthy and can only end poorly. Also, as biased as I am called people's treatment of Keith is severely biased as Keith is not as bad as that is shown.

Bad yes, but not as bad.

Keith isn't really an awful guy as written, certainly not unforgivable, you're right, but I think you're majorly infantilizing a pair of, as others have stated, young adults. Yes, young people, even young adults, think with things that aren't their heads from time to time, but if people having trauma, neglect, and mental illness was enough to invalidate all of their decisions, then I don't think there's a human being alive who can actually make any sort of legally binding action these days.

Also, a lot of people clash, both before and during relationships. Was that particular bullet-point just for completeness' sake or do you actually believe that's a meaningful point?

In earlier pages you were saying...

markmoonfang said:
Can you point me to a time that he's been neglectful?

...and now that you've proven wrong once again, you're changing it to...

markmoonfang said:
Keith is not as bad as that is shown.

Bad yes, but not as bad.

You'll change your tune from "He hasn't done anything wrong" to "he has been wrong, but Serah is worse."

I'm not sure anyone reading your comments thinks you're arguing in good faith.

anonjohn20 said:
In earlier pages you were saying...
...and now that you've proven wrong once again, you're changing it to...
You'll change your tune from "He hasn't done anything wrong" to "he has been wrong, but Serah is worse."

I'm not sure anyone reading your comments thinks you're arguing in good faith.

Prior pages didn't have the event being shown, just Serah's words. I don't care what other people think. I am certain of my position and no one has shaken me of that.

I don't believe Serah is a bad person. But even if she comes off as one, consider: it's very unlikely this was author's intent. If BK wanted one of them to be insincere and calculating, we would get obvious clues along the way. The whole comic would be very different, more emphasis would be put on her machinations, Seb having second thoughts and so on.

But we got none of that, instead we have lengthy sequences of them being loving and affectionate with each other. This is what this comic is really about: a fantasy of two cute and likeable siblings breaking the taboo. Seeing them together is heartwarming, and the fact that their chances to stay together are slim adds tension and bittersweetness. This is what made me enjoy the series so much, and I'm sure this is true for many other people. And if this was an oversight on BK's part, he had many years to steer the story in different direction, so people would see that Serah was meant to be evil. But it's quite the opposite, their moments together are becoming more and more tender and I'm all for it.

Sure Serah is pushy. But we already know why - she was traumatized by effectively losing both of her parents in a short time span. Seb is the only man in the house, she falls for him, and when they finally have sex she demands him to be clear if he can commit. Because he means so much for her and she's afraid of losing him too. Later she makes up with Seb, finds the strength to cooperate with a woman she saw as a homewrecker and stands up to her father.

So I would say both Seb and Serah are good, even if flawed. There's no need to dig too deep.

moonlitsoul said:
Keith isn't really an awful guy as written, certainly not unforgivable, you're right, but I think you're majorly infantilizing a pair of, as others have stated, young adults. Yes, young people, even young adults, think with things that aren't their heads from time to time, but if people having trauma, neglect, and mental illness was enough to invalidate all of their decisions, then I don't think there's a human being alive who can actually make any sort of legally binding action these days.

Also, a lot of people clash, both before and during relationships. Was that particular bullet-point just for completeness' sake or do you actually believe that's a meaningful point?

It's the totality of things we must consider.

Serah witnessed the final moments before her mother's death. That argument was clearly remembered as well.

Keith became an absentee father, fulfilling the bare minimum of his fatherly duties and drinking himself to a blackout when he's done that.

The pair grew up without proper parental guidance, relying on each other. That sounds nice until you see signs of co-dependency with them. They are constantly together, friend groups are limited, nether have dated or had romantic encounters outside of each other. There is no indication that they ever attempted to have separate bedrooms (which leads to another issue), and Seb is constantly doing things to make Serah happy while it isn't reciprocated except with sexual favors.

By the indications I see, Seb finds value in Serah's approval. So he constantly works for her happiness. He finds relief from the stress of his mother's death and Keith's absence by her happiness and approval.

Serah, meanwhile, trying to keep from losing any more of her family has gone to a controlling and domineering path. I believe it was her choice to never have separate bedrooms. Compounded by the fact that she never allows the healthy establishment of boundaries between them. Even going so far as to violate Seb's when she sees a chance to draw him in with sex. Then when Seb attempts to stop things, after she acted like she didn't want it mind you, she pulls him back in to committing the act. Push-Pull is a tactic of abusers. We see it again in the janitor's closet.

When Seb's only friend attempts to show him a picture of a nude classmate, Serah cuts Seb off from that friend. She has him show what Seb is into but never acts upon any of his interests, instead showing that she has expectations of sex born from pornography just as Seb and makes Seb fulfill them. This indicates to me that she was fantasizing about the relationship for some time.

That day also has strong indications for me. Seb is clearly confused what their relationship is now. All he knows is that it feels good but he knows that this sort of activity is reserved for people in relationships. He's never been in one and he's thrown for a loop. If this was just romantic or mutual feelings, Serah, who was in the same boat, would reciprocate that confusion and offer a proper response. Instead, she lays down an ultimatum. 'Take me on a date and learn how to pleasure me or else...'. She chastises him for being unable to say 'girlfriend' and then says "I'll tell you a deal. One, take me on a date. Two, learn to pleasure me orally."

A 'deal' means there is something to gain and that won't be gained if the deal isn't fulfilled. So this is a deal for Seb to lock her in a relationship with him. And the deal is heavily one sided. AGAIN I will always repeat this, SERAH STARTED THIS! So she constantly crosses boundaries for brothers and sisters and when it finally results in sexual activity she puts the impetus on Seb to be the one to fulfill requirements for it to continue when the relationship was never his idea in the first place. He's lost, confused and doesn't know what to do. So he does what Serah tells him.

Then there's the end of Thursday Morning which is just more manipulation after manipulation after manipulation. Blaming Seb for everything that has happened because he wasn't able to spring up and declare a plan for something that SHE started. When Seb doesn't roll over and submit, she rushes off and ghosts him while crying to Marisa to get her comfort when it was Serah's fault to begin with. More emotional manipulation.

Then there was the plans, that has Jayden's faults on it as well but Serah started all of that with ZERO input from Seb. Now she's forcing him to get a job while she plays housewife and keeps him under her control.

And I'm supposed to be rooting for them because...?

syberianlynx said:
I don't believe Serah is a bad person. But even if she comes off as one, consider: it's very unlikely this was author's intent. If BK wanted one of them to be insincere and calculating, we would get obvious clues along the way. The whole comic would be very different, more emphasis would be put on her machinations, Seb having second thoughts and so on.

But we got none of that, instead we have lengthy sequences of them being loving and affectionate with each other. This is what this comic is really about: a fantasy of two cute and likeable siblings breaking the taboo. Seeing them together is heartwarming, and the fact that their chances to stay together are slim adds tension and bittersweetness. This is what made me enjoy the series so much, and I'm sure this is true for many other people. And if this was an oversight on BK's part, he had many years to steer the story in different direction, so people would see that Serah was meant to be evil. But it's quite the opposite, their moments together are becoming more and more tender and I'm all for it.

Sure Serah is pushy. But we already know why - she was traumatized by effectively losing both of her parents in a short time span. Seb is the only man in the house, she falls for him, and when they finally have sex she demands him to be clear if he can commit. Because he means so much for her and she's afraid of losing him too. Later she makes up with Seb, finds the strength to cooperate with a woman she saw as a homewrecker and stands up to her father.

So I would say both Seb and Serah are good, even if flawed. There's no need to dig too deep.

The bonus page for Monday Morning and Serah looking at Seb in the bedroom. It was from the beginning.

markmoonfang said:
The bonus page for Monday Morning and Serah looking at Seb in the bedroom. It was from the beginning.

In the bathroom you mean? I don't think it was a big deal. Remember, she looked shocked when Seb showed his dick between her thighs. Part of her surely wanted to have sex with him, but I don't think this was the reason why she went to shower with him. More like the sight of him got her excited and she didn't think too far ahead. One thing leads to another kind of situation.

Everyone having a yap sesh in the comments the only thing I thought was that the first panel looks like that one meme template

markmoonfang said:
Prior pages didn't have the event being shown, just Serah's words.

Oh yeah, you're still denying that he was passed out drunk on Tuesday mornings. I forgot about your denial. LOL

markmoonfang said:
I am certain of my position and no one has shaken me of that.

Ah, yes. Your position that Serah and her mom were evil manipulators and that everyone else is caught in the crossfire.

markmoonfang said:
I believe it was her choice to never have separate bedrooms.

Funny how this is never stated; Keith just mentioned how he wishes he had given them separate rooms, and you jumped at the chance to assume Serah was at fault. Keep claiming you're unbiased though. LOL

markmoonfang said:
When Seb's only friend attempts to show him a picture of a nude classmate, Serah cuts Seb off from that friend.

Here you are making things up again; Toby and Seb are still friends. Look at both side stories; Serah didn't "cut Seb off from that friend."

markmoonfang said:
Then there was the plans, that has Jayden's faults on it as well

You actually found a third woman to be mad at while making excuses for Keith. Is this a pattern for you? "Women are to blame for everything! They are evil and manipulative." LOL

Folks, I do not share the values of MarkMoonfang, and find the way he engages with this comic baffling. But I invite anyone who's enraged by his words to stop engaging with him instead of coming down to insults. You said it yourselves, his interpretation of the comic's events is so far removed from yours it feels like bad faith. So why keep arguing with him?

(Sorry, I realize it's rude to act as if you are not going to read this yourself. But it's like I said, I'm pretty convinced any point I would bring to you about this comic and its themes would be ignored or buried under more rhetoric, and I do not enjoy theatrical debate nearly as much as I enjoy this comic.)

I really like how these comics spark these philosophical debates on relationships, intentions, emotions, etc. very fun to read everyone's perspective on the matter.

This comment thread is a mess. A ton of people blaming Keith without really understanding what it's like to be in his position while also yes, he was a bit absent from his kid's needs at times like in this moment. I'm not saying that he's not wrong here. But I'm also not going to say everyone is right for blaming him and saying he's a horrible dad. I'm willing to bet that most of you do not understand what it is like to lose someone you love, especially in a tragic accident that you can easily self destruct and blame yourself for. I can say for certain that I have experienced loss and I have experienced what it is like to be broken hearted from nasty breakups. What Keith is experiencing is likely a combination of both, losing someone you love and blaming himself for it. Back the fuck off of the dude if you've not experienced that kind of grief, for you cannot effectively judge somone for being irresponsible if you do not understand the situation as a whole. You can look at the situation as an outsiders perspective and say that it is a messed up situation. But to blame any single person when NO ONE in this comic is without blame is asinine and ignorant. Serah is not innocent in this, she is manipulative and does not consider her actions, especially towards her father. The man is literally going through a change right now, raising he is about to lose the lsat of his family a she barely would give him the time of day until now. Even then, she still is trying to blame him and shift blame off of her for the current situation. Neither of them are innocent, both had a hand in this. A month after a tragic loss like that is still very soon to someone who just lost someone they loved. Obviously Keith was still dealing with it and he was going down a bad path. He's not absolved from his kids needs, but again we cannot soley blame him for being a fresh widower.

skellitor301 said:
This comment thread is a mess. A ton of people blaming Keith without really understanding what it's like to be in his position while also yes, he was a bit absent from his kid's needs at times like in this moment. I'm not saying that he's not wrong here. But I'm also not going to say everyone is right for blaming him and saying he's a horrible dad. I'm willing to bet that most of you do not understand what it is like to lose someone you love, especially in a tragic accident that you can easily self destruct and blame yourself for. I can say for certain that I have experienced loss and I have experienced what it is like to be broken hearted from nasty breakups. What Keith is experiencing is likely a combination of both, losing someone you love and blaming himself for it. Back the fuck off of the dude if you've not experienced that kind of grief, for you cannot effectively judge somone for being irresponsible if you do not understand the situation as a whole. You can look at the situation as an outsiders perspective and say that it is a messed up situation. But to blame any single person when NO ONE in this comic is without blame is asinine and ignorant. Serah is not innocent in this, she is manipulative and does not consider her actions, especially towards her father. The man is literally going through a change right now, raising he is about to lose the lsat of his family a she barely would give him the time of day until now. Even then, she still is trying to blame him and shift blame off of her for the current situation. Neither of them are innocent, both had a hand in this. A month after a tragic loss like that is still very soon to someone who just lost someone they loved. Obviously Keith was still dealing with it and he was going down a bad path. He's not absolved from his kids needs, but again we cannot soley blame him for being a fresh widower.

You made the most sense of anyone here. Although Keith reacted badly and should have done more for his kids - most people here don't realize what it is like to lose someone you love so dearly. I lost a daughter once. I didn't sleep, eat or drink anything for three days, only cried nonstop. Finally on the fourth day I realized I was dehydrated (from the crying) and took a sip of water. A person can fall off a cliff or be injured in an accident or fire and die from those injuries - but I never knew that a person could be hurt so much emotionally and yet still remain alive! I don't know if I have expressed that well but that's how severe the pain and hurt is. It took three years before a day went by where I didn't think about her non-stop all day. In this story Keith turned to drink which is not good, but I can understand someone wanting to do anything to try and dull the extreme pain of such a loss.

skellitor301 said:
This comment thread is a mess. A ton of people blaming Keith without really understanding what it's like to be in his position while also yes, he was a bit absent from his kid's needs at times like in this moment. I'm not saying that he's not wrong here. But I'm also not going to say everyone is right for blaming him and saying he's a horrible dad. I'm willing to bet that most of you do not understand what it is like to lose someone you love, especially in a tragic accident that you can easily self destruct and blame yourself for. I can say for certain that I have experienced loss and I have experienced what it is like to be broken hearted from nasty breakups. What Keith is experiencing is likely a combination of both, losing someone you love and blaming himself for it. Back the fuck off of the dude if you've not experienced that kind of grief, for you cannot effectively judge somone for being irresponsible if you do not understand the situation as a whole. You can look at the situation as an outsiders perspective and say that it is a messed up situation. But to blame any single person when NO ONE in this comic is without blame is asinine and ignorant. Serah is not innocent in this, she is manipulative and does not consider her actions, especially towards her father. The man is literally going through a change right now, raising he is about to lose the lsat of his family a she barely would give him the time of day until now. Even then, she still is trying to blame him and shift blame off of her for the current situation. Neither of them are innocent, both had a hand in this. A month after a tragic loss like that is still very soon to someone who just lost someone they loved. Obviously Keith was still dealing with it and he was going down a bad path. He's not absolved from his kids needs, but again we cannot soley blame him for being a fresh widower.

Very strange how when others say nearly the same thing they get down voted .. guess they're not in the click

bluesub6 said:
I really like how these comics spark these philosophical debates on relationships, intentions, emotions, etc. very fun to read everyone's perspective on the matter.

Yea .. it's amazing the insight some people have ....

markmoonfang said:
And I'm supposed to be rooting for them because...?

Idk, but I think you should maybe reread the comic because, as some of the others pointed out, you made some of that up right off the top of your own head.

markmoonfang said:

And I'm supposed to be rooting for them because...?

Yeah, you have wildly misinterpreted their relationship. Slack granted since it’s not exactly a normal situation, but not that much.

markmoonfang said:
A bunch of bullshit.

You have a problem projecting, dude. I think you might be the one who needs therapy and outside intervention. Is this a call for help? If so, there are much better places to do it.

Seriously you sound very unwell, I'm not trolling or being rude I genuinely think you need to log off and address some other things.

eisen_ironheart said:
Emotional Damage!

You a parenting FAILURE! Nephew Timmy was a better parent before he was even Born!

con_flux89 said:
The point she's trying to make is they grew up with him being unreliable. And this moment of her needing him was probably a key turning point where she realized "i have to solve my own problems. I cant count on him to be there for me. So in the earlier page where he says, "i just want to be there for you too, like i always have" it triggered her because: "like always?" He wasnt always there for them. While it is possible theres the relationship with seb was a result of them relying on each other instead of him, i dont think thats what she's trying to convey that particular point to him.

Yes, what Serah and Seb do, they did, it depends on them, on no one else. It's time for them to take responsibility. But it's true that her father wasn't there when she needed him. The feelings on this page are very strong. It wasn't right for Keith to get drunk.

Si Lo que hacen Serah y Seb lo hicieron ellos, depende de ellos, de nadie mas. Es hora de que se hagan responsables. Pero es sierto su padre no estuvo hai cuando ella lo nesesitaba. Los sentimientos en esta pagina son muy fuertes.
No estubo bien que Keith se mamara.

markmoonfang said:
It's fine, this hill has a nice view for my gravestone.

Out of curiosity, why are you still here? You've made it rather clear you don't like the direction the story is going, even to the point you have threatened to blacklist the artist/characters because of it. And yet...it is clear the artist isn't going to change a story they have been working on for years because one mouthy individual doesn't like it. So why stick around and keep complaining? Why not just use your blacklist and move on?

blodhgarm92 said:
Out of curiosity, why are you still here? You've made it rather clear you don't like the direction the story is going, even to the point you have threatened to blacklist the artist/characters because of it. And yet...it is clear the artist isn't going to change a story they have been working on for years because one mouthy individual doesn't like it. So why stick around and keep complaining? Why not just use your blacklist and move on?

Firstly, can we not pretend that blacklisting harms anyone and would honestly make everyone else happy who don't want to hear my opinion so what's the harm in it?

With that settled, the reason why is that I want to see how it ends. And the comment section exists for people to express their comments. To state that only positive comments are permitted is the abusive thing.

Besides that, the last question can go right back to everyone else. Why not just block me?

markmoonfang said:
Firstly, can we not pretend that blacklisting harms anyone and would honestly make everyone else happy who don't want to hear my opinion so what's the harm in it?

With that settled, the reason why is that I want to see how it ends. And the comment section exists for people to express their comments. To state that only positive comments are permitted is the abusive thing.

Besides that, the last question can go right back to everyone else. Why not just block me?

No one ever said "only positive comments are permitted". Constructive criticism can be very welcomed with helping artists figure out where to improve. But your comments have not be constuctive criticism at all. They have basically been you complaining about everything you hate about the story while more or less demanding the artist makes the changes that you suggest or you'll blacklist them.

And again, why are you still here? You said that if the artist didn't change the story up, you were blacklisting. And yet it's very clear the artist isn't changing anything and yet...you're still here complaining because you "want to see how it ends". Your comments literally contradict themselves so you can just keep complaining in the comments. That is ultimately why people are responding so strongly towards you like they are.

But, that's all I'm saying further on the matter; otherwise this will just be comments going back and forth about the comments and not actually pertain to the content in question.