Hearing from father is never easy. This situation especially

pinkgiraffe_01 said:
Hearing from father is never easy. This situation especially

Yeah.

coffee ☕without sugar, definitely a very tense moment

Micropop11 said:
"Look at this from my perspective"

Yeah.. that's something a narcissist would say.

I thought his kids are more important than him.. You know, as their father?

Yet the rest of what he said is not what a narcissist would say, curious

micropop11 said:
"Look at this from my perspective"

Yeah.. that's something a narcissist would say.

I thought his kids are more important than him.. You know, as their father?

How do you understand another person's opinion if not seeing from their perspective? What he asks actually makes sense, instead of him treating her as a child that doesn't know better and just telling her to stop, he is asking her to try to understand WHY he thinks this way.

Out of curiosity, now that we're on Sunday mornings, I took a look about at Monday mornings to see when it was posted..

9 years ago...

It's been a heck of a journey..

This page is an absolute masterclass in facial expressions!

micropop11 said:
"Look at this from my perspective"

Yeah.. that's something a narcissist would say.

I thought his kids are more important than him.. You know, as their father?

For the love of god my dude.

A character is allowed to not be a perfect angel. They are allowed to make a comeback when they screw up. That's kind of the point of a character arc.

You do not have to be this dead set on a guy who has had extremely realistic reactions never being forgiven.

The people who hold ridiculous standards that don't allow for any forgiveness end up living miserable and lonely lives.

vulcandawg said:
“Parents are supposed to protect you from bad situations, and even intervene if things
go too far...”
🤔🧐… well keith… its a little too late for that bud…

No it would be too late if they would't speak with each other.

3 dots, there's a but coming.

Poor Serah gets stuck with all the hard conversations. Seb had like one without her, she’s had like six without him.

tijhor said:
Out of curiosity, now that we're on Sunday mornings, I took a look about at Monday mornings to see when it was posted..

9 years ago...

It's been a heck of a journey..

..... It's been a long fuckin week. XD

He's not just taking about their relationship..

Se esta disculpando por no haber sido un buen padre. Ya sabemos la opiñon de el. Ya la cara de el cuando ella dice que de todas formas nos ivamos a ir de casa. La mirada de el con cara de culo dice: ojala hubiera sido de otra forma. Solos (cada uno en su casa) o cada uno con su pareja

Duolingo finally has proven useful. I actually understood this!! Seeing the side by side with english really helped for confirmations tho lol.

He has had a great deal of time to think - looks like he is making a lot of sense.

dragonwolf941 said:
..... It's been a long fuckin week. XD

Two weeks actually. The first week was Monday through Saturday in their own house. On Saturday Seb & Serah moved out to go live at Jayden's. They spent a whole week at Jayden's (time skip ahead) and now it's the following Sunday.

nuh uh

kasmira3 said:
How do you understand another person's opinion if not seeing from their perspective? What he asks actually makes sense, instead of him treating her as a child that doesn't know better and just telling her to stop, he is asking her to try to understand WHY he thinks this way.

It's goofy how much people want to make the dad in this some complete monster to the point that him asking his daughter to consider his perspective is considered narcissistic in their eyes. But yeah like you said that not only is sensible but is completely normal.

On the topic of the page I am glad that he is being allowed to speak and apologize. The look on her face shows that she isn't happy with it but it's an improvement. The fact that this is cut the way it is to perfectly go into a "but" though makes me feel like she will like the next part even less.

I think he's apologizing for the "wrong" thing here.

dragonwolf941 said:
..... It's been a long fuckin week. XD

Just a week in the Warp really

micropop11 said:
"Look at this from my perspective"

Yeah.. that's something a narcissist would say.

I thought his kids are more important than him.. You know, as their father?

I would say that it's more narcissistic to not take a step back and try and see things from others perspective. It's like saying: "No, I will not reason with you. It's my way or the highway." Now that's narcissistic.
His kids are important to him, that's why he is there. Being a good parent isn't about saying yes. Keith says it the best himself: "My job is to guide you through life. Parents are supposed to protect from bad saturations and intervene if things goes too far." Kids are stupid and are bound to mess-up sooner or later, and that's when a parent should step in.

"Parents are supposed to protect you from bad situations, and even intervene if things go too far..."

Oh my.... maybe I'm misinterpreting where he is trying to go with that and what he is trying to say, but this feels like he stepped right into it (at least that's kinda what Serah looks like in the last panel). What he said seems to imply that he still regards what Seb and Serah have as something objectively, ubiquitously bad and/or wrong. He doesn't seem to consider that they might be happy, well aware of the social ramifications of their relationship, and willing to do what they have to in order to protect this relationship...
Maybe, Keith old-buddy-old-pal, you should give Serah a chance to talk first and see how she feels and thinks about all this... maybe even wait for Seb to come home first and hear his opinion as well.
Right now, it feels like he came here with the best intentions, but had an unfortunate choice of words to bring that across...

EDIT: just for clarification, I don't necessarily think Keith believes what his kids have is completely wrong/bad/unacceptable, but that he is definitely worried they might get hurt. By others, by each other, or simply because he believes this will backfire in some way and hurt them. And that's what he wants to protect them from. But the way he said it could easily be misinterpreted as something else.

nobunagafirst said:
"Parents are supposed to protect you from bad situations, and even intervene if things go too far..."

Oh my.... maybe I'm misinterpreting where he is trying to go with that and what he is trying to say, but this feels like he stepped right into it (at least that's kinda what Serah looks like in the last panel). What he said seems to imply that he still regards what Seb and Serah have as something objectively, ubiquitously bad and/or wrong. He doesn't seem to consider that they might be happy, well aware of the social ramifications of their relationship, and willing to do what they have to in order to protect this relationship...
Maybe, Keith old-buddy-old-pal, you should give Serah a chance to talk first and see how she feels and thinks about all this... maybe even wait for Seb to come home first and hear his opinion as well.
Right now, it feels like he came here with the best intentions, but had an unfortunate choice of words to bring that across...

EDIT: just for clarification, I don't necessarily think Keith believes what his kids have is completely wrong/bad/unacceptable, but that he is definitely worried they might get hurt. By others, by each other, or simply because he believes this will backfire in some way and hurt them. And that's what he wants to protect them from. But the way he said it could easily be misinterpreted as something else.

I mean....would he even BE wrong in considering what they are doing wrong? Incest is generally taboo for a reason. Not even going into the possible genetic issues going forward they are going to be required to spend the rest of their lives having to hide quite a lot and if they slip up with others they won't have the same good fortune to have someone like Keith and Jayden who already care for them and converse with them to fall back on. Hell could end up getting more ire pushed onto Keith for not stopping it.

Them being happy to do it isn't really relevant in it being good or bad. I know in the comic we want to root for the kids but we have to remember they ARE kids rushing into a relationship that started almost entirely on lust in like two weeks. With both of them being pretty bad in hiding it. The story itself doesn't even seem to be pushing that what they are doing is good or right to begin with, just that it's what they are choosing to do.

Honestly the best and most logical outcome is probably "I still cannot condone what you are doing or say it is good but I love you so I will not stop you if this is truly what you wish to do"

pinkgiraffe_01 said:
Hearing from father is never easy. This situation especially

"When Daddy Speaks, My Heart Shrieks."
- Confucius I think

furryryuho said:
I mean....would he even BE wrong in considering what they are doing wrong? Incest is generally taboo for a reason. Not even going into the possible genetic issues going forward they are going to be required to spend the rest of their lives having to hide quite a lot and if they slip up with others they won't have the same good fortune to have someone like Keith and Jayden who already care for them and converse with them to fall back on. Hell could end up getting more ire pushed onto Keith for not stopping it.

Them being happy to do it isn't really relevant in it being good or bad. I know in the comic we want to root for the kids but we have to remember they ARE kids rushing into a relationship that started almost entirely on lust in like two weeks. With both of them being pretty bad in hiding it. The story itself doesn't even seem to be pushing that what they are doing is good or right to begin with, just that it's what they are choosing to do.

Honestly the best and most logical outcome is probably "I still cannot condone what you are doing or say it is good but I love you so I will not stop you if this is truly what you wish to do"

The thing is that it's not so easy to say "right" or "wrong".
The incest - meaning sexual intercourse - is bad because there's a chance of Serah getting pregnant (I know it's not gonna happen in the comic, but speaking from a more realistic point of view), and offspring from people who are swimming awfully close to each other in the gene pool comes with a heightened risk of expressing genetic disorders.
But their relationship in and of itself - the emotional part; the love - is objectively speaking neither bad nor wrong.
What's bad about this is the social stigma. Most people either don't know/realize why incest is bad and/or don't distinguish between incest and a non-sexual relationship.
So the bad part in that case would be that other people would condemn them anyway, no matter what they do. But saying that this means their relationship is bad is like saying the nerdy kid at school is at fault for being bullied because they look like a nerd and deserve it. Nope, it's still the bullies' fault.

But yeah, in this specific instance, with the both of them having sex, I'd consider this bad (from a real-life pov).
Maybe I'm just too much of a "love is love and love is good" kind of person, but I'd sit down with them, talk about those genetic risks, hope that they'd reconsider the sex part of their relationship, and if they do and still want to be with each other, I'd support them.

So, yeah, for this comic, for Keith, Seb, and Serah, the outcome you suggest as the best one... I agree, that would be the most positive option and still be in character.

furryryuho said:
It's goofy how much people want to make the dad in this some complete monster to the point that him asking his daughter to consider his perspective is considered narcissistic in their eyes. But yeah like you said that not only is sensible but is completely normal.

On the topic of the page I am glad that he is being allowed to speak and apologize. The look on her face shows that she isn't happy with it but it's an improvement. The fact that this is cut the way it is to perfectly go into a "but" though makes me feel like she will like the next part even less.

I agree, what makes this a good story is that they are flawed people with flawed lives. I also don't think many people know what a Narcissist is. I've never once seen their dad exhibit the "Pay attention to me because it's All about me cause I'm such a good person, come on praise me" that is the quintessential trait of a Narcissist. What has happened over the course of this comic is pretty damn heavy and allot to take in. Keith isn't pretending to be a good person, just a concerned parent as any good parent will try to be. I'd honestly be more upset if he didn't care.

On that note, I figured that Jayden was more than happy to stay with their dad and have a no baggage honeymoon period and I honestly think that with the way things are thing Seb and Serah will keep the apartment where they can be them without interruption, judgement, and need to hold back and Keith and Jayden will take the house and have their own happy ever after.

nobunagafirst said:
The thing is that it's not so easy to say "right" or "wrong".
The incest - meaning sexual intercourse - is bad because there's a chance of Serah getting pregnant (I know it's not gonna happen in the comic, but speaking from a more realistic point of view), and offspring from people who are swimming awfully close to each other in the gene pool comes with a heightened risk of expressing genetic disorders.
But their relationship in and of itself - the emotional part; the love - is objectively speaking neither bad nor wrong.
What's bad about this is the social stigma. Most people either don't know/realize why incest is bad and/or don't distinguish between incest and a non-sexual relationship.
So the bad part in that case would be that other people would condemn them anyway, no matter what they do. But saying that this means their relationship is bad is like saying the nerdy kid at school is at fault for being bullied because they look like a nerd and deserve it. Nope, it's still the bullies' fault.

But yeah, in this specific instance, with the both of them having sex, I'd consider this bad (from a real-life pov).
Maybe I'm just too much of a "love is love and love is good" kind of person, but I'd sit down with them, talk about those genetic risks, hope that they'd reconsider the sex part of their relationship, and if they do and still want to be with each other, I'd support them.

So, yeah, for this comic, for Keith, Seb, and Serah, the outcome you suggest as the best one... I agree, that would be the most positive option and still be in character.

This pretty much. Incest is considered wrong because of the implications of children having genetic issues. If that wasn't a problem I doubt the whole practice would be considered so taboo.

In this circumstance as long as they were completely aware of the potential problems and agreed to not have biological children then it would be one thing, but if they were aware and STILL decided to have biological children or weren't taking enough precautions to prevent children, then it would be a big issue.

At this point it kind of feels like Keith is trying to sit down with them and make sure that, as a dad, he makes them aware of how much of a problem this is and what kinds of things could happen and likely try to talk them out of it to protect them.

But, that being said, even if he tries to approach it in the "this is what society says is wrong and here are the actual scientific and genetic issues with it" way, it can still backfire if he isn't careful about considering their own feelings and awareness.

I hope that he asks some leading questions about what they do and don't know about it and what they are willing to go through to stay together and things they should and shouldn't do before he starts the "i'm your dad and I'm trying to protect you from yourselves even if I have to force you" route.

micropop11 said:
"Look at this from my perspective"

Yeah.. that's something a narcissist would say.

I thought his kids are more important than him.. You know, as their father?

Yeah, no. "look at this from my perspective" in and of itself is not narcissism, especially out of context. It is entirely possible to be reasonable with someone while asking them to consider the point of view of the person talking to them. In this case, he is right to ask this. He's been troubled by loss before, and he doesn't want to lose the last bit of family he has left. Especially over something that can be talked through. You can't talk to someone who is dead, he had to accept that he lost his wife and he's struggled with that. With this, he has a chance to do right and it's not unreasonable to ask her to consider his perspective. He wants to be a good father, that's why he's there to talk with her. To say he's being narcissistic here is a very ignorant take on the situation as a whole. It's an argument to not listen to him just because he is asking her to meet him part way in understanding the situation beyond herself and her brother. Because the situation isn't just about the twins, it's the family as a whole. So yes, she would need to consider how this would affect her father and the future of her family. It's not fair to just expect that just because she and her brother wants to try and make it work that it can without considering the effects of those nearby. In this case, she isn't considering how this would affect her father in how he sees himself as their father figure. He already felt like a failure to his wife, it'd be cruel to not listen to him when he says he feels like he failed as a father as well. All he has left are his kids, if he loses that, how would you expect him to cope with that when he already drowns his failures to his wife in booze and women? So, with that in mind, do you really think it's ok to shut down someone like that just because you assume he's being narcissistic for asking someone to view his perspective on it?

If we assume such a relationship at least extremely frowned upon where they live, if not criminalized, then it's possible Keith would be held responsible if he allowed it to happen under his roof, at which point he might himself lose his job. Taking that in consideration helps me sympathize with Keith, even if I think he'd be wrong to blame himself for "this". Heck, I probably would have partially agreed with him 9 years ago. But I've heard enough arguments and read enough wholesome comics to realize "this" is fine.

"This" being the fact that two young people, both the same age and old enough to consent, and without authority over each other, are engaged in a relationship.

wolfpak said:
He's not just taking about their relationship..

He’s trying to make sense of his own failure as a father…, he definitely lays blame at his own foot paws for this situation.

Nobunagafirst said:
"Parents are supposed to protect you from bad situations, and even intervene if things go too far..."

Oh my.... maybe I'm misinterpreting where he is trying to go with that and what he is trying to say, but this feels like he stepped right into it (at least that's kinda what Serah looks like in the last panel). What he said seems to imply that he still regards what Seb and Serah have as something objectively, ubiquitously bad and/or wrong. He doesn't seem to consider that they might be happy, well aware of the social ramifications of their relationship, and willing to do what they have to in order to protect this relationship...
Maybe, Keith old-buddy-old-pal, you should give Serah a chance to talk first and see how she feels and thinks about all this... maybe even wait for Seb to come home first and hear his opinion as well.
Right now, it feels like he came here with the best intentions, but had an unfortunate choice of words to bring that across...

EDIT: just for clarification, I don't necessarily think Keith believes what his kids have is completely wrong/bad/unacceptable, but that he is definitely worried they might get hurt. By others, by each other, or simply because he believes this will backfire in some way and hurt them. And that's what he wants to protect them from. But the way he said it could easily be misinterpreted as SOMETHING else.

but it IS objectively bad and wrong...the dad isn't a bad guy here for not wanting his kids to smash.