Topic: [BUR] Flip [color]_iris <-> [color]_eyes aliases

The bulk update request #12452 is pending approval.

remove alias blue_iris (0) -> blue_eyes (595619)
remove alias black_iris (0) -> black_eyes (94388)
remove alias green_iris (0) -> green_eyes (378011)
remove alias pink_iris (0) -> pink_eyes (70650)
remove alias red_iris (0) -> red_eyes (302082)
remove alias orange_iris (0) -> orange_eyes (72973)
remove alias yellow_iris (0) -> yellow_eyes (239952)
remove alias purple_iris (0) -> purple_eyes (174308)
remove alias white_iris (0) -> white_eyes (40200)

Reason: Having [color]_iris as the main tag makes it much more obvious what the tag actually stands for.

For example the tag red_eyes might make someone falsely assume that means that any part of the eye can be red and not just the iris, resulting in that being often tagged on posts, that should actually be tagged red_sclera.
If BUR #12437 is approved, this would make this even more confusing, since in that case it actually means any part of the eye.
​

The followup BUR would look something like this:

alias amber_eyes -> amber_iris
alias black_eyes -> black_iris
alias blue_eyes -> blue_iris
alias brown_eyes -> brown_iris
alias green_eyes -> green_iris
alias grey_eyes -> grey_iris
alias orange_eyes -> orange_iris
alias pink_eyes -> pink_iris
alias purple_eyes -> purple_iris
alias red_eyes -> red_iris
alias tan_eyes -> tan_iris
alias teal_eyes -> teal_iris
alias white_eyes -> white_iris
alias yellow_eyes -> yellow_iris
alias multicolored_eyes -> multicolored_iris
alias rainbow_eyes -> rainbow_iris
alias two_tone_eyes -> two_tone_iris

^{Note that there are many existing aliases for these tags, so this BUR alone will not work.}

what if the sclera AND the iris is of another color?
red_iris black_sclera would become red_eyes black_sclera. Not the end of the world, but we already have a tag system that is precise.

Also black_sclera could be mistagged as black_eyes too.

You need to remove any existing aliases and implications from all of the tags you plan on realiasing before the followup can happen (multicolored_eyes, two_tone_eyes, rainbow_eyes, etc)

bleakdragoon said:
what if the sclera AND the iris is of another color?
red_iris black_sclera would become red_eyes black_sclera. Not the end of the world, but we already have a tag system that is precise.

Also black_sclera could be mistagged as black_eyes too.

I think you misunderstand. What you describe is already currently the case.
I want to switch that around, to make it more clear that the color is meant for the iris and avoid mistags like these.

So currently red_iris is aliased to red_eyes.
I instead want to alias red_eyes to red_iris.

donovan_dmc said:
You need to remove any existing aliases and implications from all of the tags you plan on realiasing before the followup can happen (multicolored_eyes, two_tone_eyes, rainbow_eyes, etc)

I am aware of that, but I first wanted to see the general consensus before I create BURs for that.

Oh. That's embarrassing.. Sorry for that.

The bulk update request #12471 is pending approval.

Reason: Seems everyone agrees to this, so I'll post all the preparation BURs.

1. Remove existing aliases and implications from [color]_eyes. (Part 1)

The bulk update request #12472 is pending approval.

remove alias pink_eye (0) -> pink_eyes (70650)
remove alias pink_irises (0) -> pink_eyes (70650)
remove alias rose_eyes (2) -> pink_eyes (70650)
remove alias lavender_eyes (3) -> purple_eyes (174308)
remove alias lilac_eyes (1) -> purple_eyes (174308)
remove alias pruple_eyes (0) -> purple_eyes (174308)
remove alias purple_eye (0) -> purple_eyes (174308)
remove alias purple_irises (0) -> purple_eyes (174308)
remove alias violet_eyes (0) -> purple_eyes (174308)
remove alias dark_red_eyes (1) -> red_eyes (302082)
remove alias red_eye (0) -> red_eyes (302082)
remove alias red_irises (0) -> red_eyes (302082)
remove alias scarlet_eyes (0) -> red_eyes (302082)
remove alias beige_eyes (0) -> tan_eyes (776)
remove alias white_eye (0) -> white_eyes (40200)
remove alias white_irises (0) -> white_eyes (40200)
remove alias gold_eyes (0) -> yellow_eyes (239952)
remove alias golden_eyes (0) -> yellow_eyes (239952)
remove alias yellow_eye (0) -> yellow_eyes (239952)
remove alias yellow_irises (0) -> yellow_eyes (239952)

Reason: 1. Remove existing aliases and implications from [color]_eyes. (Part 2)

The bulk update request #12473 is pending approval.

remove alias blue_and_gold_eyes (0) -> multicolored_eyes (7032)
remove alias central_heterochromia (0) -> multicolored_eyes (7032)
remove alias multi_colored_eyes (0) -> multicolored_eyes (7032)
remove alias multi_tone_eyes (1) -> multicolored_eyes (7032)
remove alias multicolor_eyes (0) -> multicolored_eyes (7032)
remove alias multicoloured_eyes (0) -> multicolored_eyes (7032)
remove implication rainbow_eyes (401) -> multicolored_eyes (7032)
remove implication two_tone_eyes (2307) -> multicolored_eyes (7032)
remove alias two-tone_eyes (0) -> two_tone_eyes (2307)

Reason: 1. Remove existing aliases and implications from [color]_eyes. (Part 3)

This site doesn't seem to allow me to create BURs for the following steps because of the currently active [color]_iris -> [color]_eyes aliases, so I'll put the rest in as text:

2. Attach existing aliases and implications to [color]_iris with additional ones for consistency between the colors.

Edit:

• Changes to better match tag_group:colors
• Changed targets for aqua_*, cyan_* and light_blue_* to teal_iris
• Changed targets for indigo_* to purple_iris
• Added maroon_* to red_iris alias
• Changed targets for turquoise_* to teal_iris

alias amber_eye -> amber_iris
alias amber_irises -> amber_iris
alias ambereyes -> amber_iris
alias amber-eyes -> amber_iris
alias eyes_amber -> amber_iris
alias blue_eye -> blue_iris
alias blue_irises -> blue_iris
alias blueeyes -> blue_iris
alias blue-eyes -> blue_iris
alias dark_blue_eyes -> blue_iris
alias dark_blue_iris -> blue_iris
alias eyes_blue -> blue_iris
alias eyes_blues -> blue_iris
alias emerald_eyes -> green_iris
alias emerald_iris -> green_iris
alias eyes_green -> green_iris
alias green_eye -> green_iris
alias green_eys -> green_iris
alias green_irises -> green_iris
alias greeneyes -> green_iris
alias green-eyes -> green_iris
alias light_green_eyes -> green_iris
alias light_green_iris -> green_iris

alias black_irises -> black_iris
alias blackeyes -> black_iris
alias black-eyes -> black_iris
alias brown_eye -> brown_iris
alias brown_irises -> brown_iris
alias browneyes -> brown_iris
alias brown-eyes -> brown_iris
alias caramel_eyes -> brown_iris
alias caramel_iris -> brown_iris
alias eyes_brown -> brown_iris
alias hazel_eyes -> brown_iris
alias hazel_iris -> brown_iris
alias aqua_eyes -> teal_iris
alias aqua_iris -> teal_iris
alias light_blue_eyes -> teal_iris
alias light_blue_iris -> teal_iris
alias cyan_eyes -> teal_iris
alias cyan_iris -> teal_iris
alias eyes_teal -> teal_iris
alias teal_eye -> teal_iris
alias teal_irises -> teal_iris
alias tealeyes -> teal_iris
alias teal-eyes -> teal_iris
alias turquoise_eyes -> teal_iris
alias turquoise_iris -> teal_iris

alias eyes_gray -> grey_iris
alias eyes_grey -> grey_iris
alias eyes_silver -> grey_iris
alias gray_eye -> grey_iris
alias gray_eyes -> grey_iris
alias gray_iris -> grey_iris
alias gray_irises -> grey_iris
alias grey_eye -> grey_iris
alias grey_irises -> grey_iris
alias silver_eye -> grey_iris
alias silver_eyes -> grey_iris
alias silver_iris -> grey_iris
alias silver_irises -> grey_iris
alias eyes_pink -> pink_iris
alias magenta_eyes -> pink_iris
alias magenta_iris -> pink_iris
alias pink_eye -> pink_iris
alias pink_irises -> pink_iris
alias pinkeyes -> pink_iris
alias pink-eyes -> pink_iris
alias rose_eyes -> pink_iris
alias rose_iris -> pink_iris

alias eyes_purple -> purple_iris
alias lavender_eyes -> purple_iris
alias lavender_iris -> purple_iris
alias lilac_eyes -> purple_iris
alias lilac_iris -> purple_iris
alias pruple_eyes -> purple_iris
alias purple_eye -> purple_iris
alias purple_irises -> purple_iris
alias purpleeyes -> purple_iris
alias purple-eyes -> purple_iris
alias violet_eyes -> purple_iris
alias violet_iris -> purple_iris
alias indigo_eyes -> purple_iris
alias indigo_iris -> purple_iris

alias dark_red_eyes -> red_iris
alias dark_red_iris -> red_iris
alias eyes_red -> red_iris
alias red_eye -> red_iris
alias red_irises -> red_iris
alias redeyes -> red_iris
alias red-eyes -> red_iris
alias scarlet_eyes -> red_iris
alias scarlet_iris -> red_iris
alias maroon_eyes -> red_iris
alias maroon_iris -> red_iris
alias beige_eyes -> tan_iris
alias beige_iris -> tan_iris
alias eyes_tan -> tan_iris
alias tan_eye -> tan_iris
alias tan_irises -> tan_iris
alias taneyes -> tan_iris
alias tan-eyes -> tan_iris
alias eyes_white -> white_iris
alias white_eye -> white_iris
alias white_irises -> white_iris
alias whiteeyes -> white_iris
alias white-eyes -> white_iris

alias eyes_orange -> orange_iris
alias orange_eye -> orange_iris
alias orange_irises -> orange_iris
alias orangeeyes -> orange_iris
alias orange-eyes -> orange_iris
alias eyes_yellow -> yellow_iris
alias gold_eyes -> yellow_iris
alias gold_iris -> yellow_iris
alias golden_eyes -> yellow_iris
alias golden_iris -> yellow_iris
alias yellow_eye -> yellow_iris
alias yellow_irises -> yellow_iris
alias yelloweyes -> yellow_iris
alias yellow-eyes -> yellow_iris

alias blue_and_gold_eyes -> multicolored_iris
alias central_heterochromia -> multicolored_iris
alias multi_colored_eyes -> multicolored_iris
alias multi_colored_iris -> multicolored_iris
alias multi_tone_eyes -> multicolored_iris
alias multi_tone_iris -> multicolored_iris
alias multicolor_eyes -> multicolored_iris
alias multicolor_iris -> multicolored_iris
alias multicolored_irises -> multicolored_iris
alias multicoloured_eyes -> multicolored_iris
alias multicoloured_iris -> multicolored_iris
imply rainbow_iris -> multicolored_iris
imply two_tone_iris -> multicolored_iris
alias rainbow_eye -> rainbow_iris
alias rainbow_irises -> rainbow_iris
alias two-tone_eye -> two_tone_iris
alias two-tone_eyes -> two_tone_iris
alias two-tone_iris -> two_tone_iris
alias two-tone_irises -> two_tone_iris

3. Alias [color]_eyes -> [color]_iris

alias amber_eyes -> amber_iris
alias black_eyes -> black_iris
alias blue_eyes -> blue_iris
alias brown_eyes -> brown_iris
alias green_eyes -> green_iris
alias grey_eyes -> grey_iris
alias orange_eyes -> orange_iris
alias pink_eyes -> pink_iris
alias purple_eyes -> purple_iris
alias red_eyes -> red_iris
alias tan_eyes -> tan_iris
alias teal_eyes -> teal_iris
alias white_eyes -> white_iris
alias yellow_eyes -> yellow_iris
alias multicolored_eyes -> multicolored_iris
alias rainbow_eyes -> rainbow_iris
alias two_tone_eyes -> two_tone_iris

I see some aliases doesn't follow tag_group:colors

aqua_* are light blue. The closest to that color is cyan which is aliased to teal.

cyan_* should be teal_*

light_blue_ should be the same as aqua

gold is valid by itself

I don't see marron and silver, and I see only one grey line, but "gray" should also be aliased to "grey".

indigo should be aliased to purple_*

there might be more, I just can't concentrate long enough at the moment to help further

bleakdragoon said:[...]

I didn't really think to change any aliases to how they are now, but I guess it makes sense in cleaning these up in the process as well.
I've changed the alias targets for most of your proposals.
^{(It's a bit baffling to me that indigo_eyes is currently aliased to blue_eyes. It doesn't look blue at all to me.)}

gray_* is already aliased to grey_*

The gold_* -> yellow_* & silver_* -> grey_ I've kept for now.
silver_eyes was aliased to grey_eyes 3 years ago without much forum discussion. See topic #34834 / alias #58203
gold_eyes was aliased to yellow_eyes 15 years ago also without much forum discussion. See topic #7438 / alias #2045
Whether or not we should have these as their own tags should probably be discussed first.
Personally, I don't really see the need for these.
It makes sense for stuff like clothing where its more tagged as a material than a color, but for tagging the color of the iris it's not really useful.

If this were to go through, what tag would we use for the colors of empty eyes? *_iris feels kinda wrong for these.

post #5175352 post #4961475 post #5836293 post #2389700

This seems unnecessarily specific to me. Who exactly needs to sift out sclera or iris colors specifically when searching for art here?

pleaseletmein said:[...]

I would just use the *_sclera tags with these.
For me these look like eyes where the the irises and pupils were "removed" and the sclera is the only part that remains.

beholding said:
This seems unnecessarily specific to me. Who exactly needs to sift out sclera or iris colors specifically when searching for art here?

How does it get more specific? The meaning of these tags remain unchanged.
The [color]_eyes tags already only apply to the iris and the [color]_sclera & [color]_pupils tags are widely used. This is just to get the meaning of these tags better across and avoid mistags.
You will still be able to search for red_eyes get the same exact results you would get now.

beholding said:
This seems unnecessarily specific to me. Who exactly needs to sift out sclera or iris colors specifically when searching for art here?

This argument is a non-starter because it applies to any particular specific tag without exception: fox_spirit vs. foxes in general, english_text vs. text, etc. specific articles vs. broad "clothing", etc.

Furthermore, every *_sclera tag combined takes up more than 750 pages. We already know who needs this, these tags are well-supported, and it's not like the idea of a "sclera" is vague made-up bullshit.

People can already sift out sclera colors, and besides, there is a possibility that we make various kinds of tags imply red_eyes so that casual searchers can find what they want using natural language, and advanced queries can filter for specific parts of the eye.

• red_irises
• red_sclera
• red_pupils

snedmano said:
I would just use the *_sclera tags with these.

I don't know. It's not unusual to have enlarged irises/pupils that push out the sclera. Especially with glowing eyes, there's no way to quantify which part is the one that's glowing and causing the solid color look. Most people would look at these and just say "they have <color> eyes", not think "well they have no visible pupil, it might be too big to be the iris, so it's technically <color> sclera probably". There's also instances like
post #5926231
for the quilava in the middle, where they have white sclera and red eyes, but is that a red iris with no pupil, or a red pupil with no iris, or both a red iris and red pupil? As it is, it can be tagged red_eyes and be done with it, but if it instead gets tagged red_iris, well, is that the iris or the pupil? Is it both the iris and pupil?

snedmano said:
How does it get more specific? The meaning of these tags remain unchanged.
The [color]_eyes tags already only apply to the iris [...]

In general the <color>_eyes tags applies to the iris, but there are cases like was mentioned earlier where it takes a more general meaning in the face of ambiguity. It's easy for someone to look at those and say they have "<color> eyes", and people searching would likely think to use the <color>_eyes tag for that, but with the tag specifically being "<color> iris", it creates more ambiguity in whether that's technically correct and confusion in what the correct search is. What someone may have rightly tagged or thought of <color>_eyes would get changed to <color>_iris, which may not be correct anymore.

I think its best to just leave the tags as <color>_eyes, which best matches normal parlance and avoids ambiguity problems.

watsit said:

I think its best to just leave the tags as <color>_eyes, which best matches normal parlance and avoids ambiguity problems.

Right now you are advocating for ambiguity. The argument boils down to make the tag ambiguious in such a way that shoddy taggers won't have to think.

I don't think it's such a big issue:

• most post are not edge cases you describe.
• If its that hard to tag, e621 shoukd have a clear directive on how to tag
• worst case: people will try to tag red_eye, the tag will change to red_iris. If the tagger meant sclera, they can change it.

[edit+]

• the current color_sclera + color_eyes tag combo is ambiguous in a different yet similar way.

With that combo you can tag pupils-less eyes correctly. but can not tag "huge_pupil" eyes

bleakdragoon said:
Right now you are advocating for ambiguity. The argument boils down to make the tag ambiguious in such a way that shoddy taggers won't have to think.

Or that it helps cover cases where there is not an objectively correct answer for how to tag, and which also fits better with how people generally think of eye color.

bleakdragoon said:
I don't think it's such a big issue:

• most post are not edge cases you describe.
• If its that hard to tag, e621 shoukd have a clear directive on how to tag
• worst case: people will try to tag red_eye, the tag will change to red_iris. If the tagger meant sclera, they can change it.

Most posts not being these edge cases doesn't mean there still aren't a decent number of these edge cases that should be considered. If someone meant <color>_sclera and they know of the sclera tags, they would've tagged that from the start. If they didn't mean <color>_sclera or didn't know of the sclera tags, they'd have no reason to tag it after seeing <color>_eyes change to <color>_iris, and would likely leave it alone because they used what they reasonably assumed was the correct tag and don't know what else to replace <color>_iris with, thinking it's "good enough".

And a similar issue for searches, if someone is thinking of
post #2389700
they are likely to search yellow_eyes (which would become yellow_iris), not yellow_sclera. Then they'd be confused why they aren't getting the expected results. Additionally, if posts like that were to be considered yellow_sclera because yellow_iris isn't right, how would posts like
post #5175352
work? white_sclera is invalid because it's the most common and "default" sclera color, while white_iris would be incorrect just like yellow_iris would be for the previous example. Being able to tag yellow_eyes and white_eyes solves these issues with consistency.

bleakdragoon said:
With that combo you can tag pupils-less eyes correctly. but can not tag "huge_pupil" eyes

How can't you tag huge_pupils? If you can make out the sclera and iris, and the pupils are huge in comparison, the <color>_eyes tag doesn't affect anything.

watsit said:
And a similar issue for searches, if someone is thinking of
post #2389700
they are likely to search yellow_eyes (which would become yellow_iris), not yellow_sclera. Then they'd be confused why they aren't getting the expected results. Additionally, if posts like that were to be considered yellow_sclera because yellow_iris isn't right, how would posts like
post #5175352
work? white_sclera is invalid because it's the most common and "default" sclera color, while white_iris would be incorrect just like yellow_iris would be for the previous example. Being able to tag yellow_eyes and white_eyes solves these issues with consistency.

How can't you tag huge_pupils? If you can make out the sclera and iris, and the pupils are huge in comparison, the <color>_eyes tag doesn't affect anything.

empty_eyes? I feel like these should be empty_eyes + sclera colour.

What if we unaliased the iris tags and then had [color]_pupils, [color]_iris, and [color]_sclera all imply [color]_eyes?

dba_afish said:
empty_eyes? I feel like these should be empty_eyes + sclera colour.

I think of "empty eyes" in the vein of soulless eyes, empty thoughts, or blank expression. Where there's nothing "behind" the eyes, in a metaphysical sense. I feel "empty eyes" doesn't really fit that second example in particular since there's lightning/energy coming from the eyes, so they're not really empty. And aside from the issue of the second example having white eyes, making it white_sclera which is invalid, it still doesn't come across as sclera to me. If anything it's more the pupils being extremely dilated and filling the visible eye, giving a sense of heightened sight and other abilities, rather than extremely constricted and invisible next to the sclera, as if going blind.

Ideally they would be tagged <color>_eyes + monotone_eyes, if monotone_eyes hadn't been so heavily misused to mean monotone irises, which was a completely pointless thing to tag (and would've been an issue with *_eyes -> *_iris aliases as much as the current *_iris -> *_eyes aliases, as they both give the general impression that "eye tags" = "iris tags").

pleaseletmein said:
What if we unaliased the iris tags and then had [color]_pupils, [color]_iris, and [color]_sclera all imply [color]_eyes?

That would likely leave <color>_iris woefully undertagged as people are more likely to just tag <color>_eyes and not think deeper about it, and cause searches for <color>_eyes to return many undesirable results.

dba_afish said:
empty_eyes? I feel like these should be empty_eyes + sclera colour.

There's is the tag no_pupils and no_irises that I think would fit better

-------

pleaseletmein said:
What if we unaliased the iris tags and then had [color]_pupils, [color]_iris, and [color]_sclera all imply [color]_eyes?

I share Watsit's worries: that's a lot of tags and they will overlap when combined with themselves and adding into the mix the no_pupils, no_irises and no_sclera tags.

post #2389700

can be decribe:

• yellow_eyes // Taking the parent tags without much more thought about it
• yellow_eyes + no_pupils
• yellow_iris + no_sclera + no_pupils
• yellow_sclera + no_irises + no_pupils

-------

watsit said:
If anything it's more the pupils being extremely dilated and filling the visible eye, giving a sense of heightened sight and other abilities, rather than extremely constricted and invisible next to the sclera, as if going blind.

Well, that's another thing to add to the list of things to consider: pupils aren't irises. Can pupils be anything but black? After all, the pupil is a hole in the eyes(?) I guess, after all Art it's a limitless world.

-------

watsit said:
How can't you tag huge_pupils? If you can make out the sclera and iris, and the pupils are huge in comparison, the <color>_eyes tag doesn't affect anything.

Sorry, I confused pupil and iris in your argument; let me clarify.

post #5926231

In your example, disregarding the hint we get from the right quilava. The center quilava's eyes can just as well be discribed with red_iris instead of red_eyes. That's what we see what counts: If there's no pupils, if the pupil is the same color as the iris — that's not relevent.

What if we had separate color tags for empty_eyes? (Something like <color>_empty_eyes or empty_<color>_eyes)

I'm not a big fan of having another set of eye color tags, but this way it would be very clear what to tag in these cases (since these don't cleanly fit into any of the current eye color tags as demonstrated).

I think this would be a much better solution than keeping the status quo simply because the current <color>_eyes tag names are more ambiguous.