The tag implication #69334 seaweed -> plant is pending approval.
Reason: Seaweed is a plant.
Topic: Tag implication: seaweed -> plant
Posted under Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions
thegreatwolfgang said:
Seaweed seems to also be tagged for the dried food variant, commonly used in sushi or onigiri.
Hm. I feel like it might be worth carving out an exception there, since it looks pretty different from natural seaweed.
beholding said:
Hm. I feel like it might be worth carving out an exception there, since it looks pretty different from natural seaweed.
That is true, we could have a dried_seaweed or seaweed_(food) tag but I don't know if people would even use them.
I'm also leaning towards disambiguation since there are a few other seaweed* tags.
Seaweed is algae, and many seaweeds such as brown algae seaweeds [kelp] are more closely related to malaria than it is to plants. The only thing all seaweeds have in common with plants is the eukaryota domain. Seaweeds are mostly put in the protist category [a group of things that aren't necessarily plant, animal, nor fungi]. Only green algae seaweed [Chlorophyta] is a plant in the kingdom Plantae. This site is pretty dedicated to proper taxonomy, so implying seaweed to plant would be incorrect on basis of 2/3 of the main groups of seaweeds not being plants.
If we're implying things, kelp (brown algae) should imply or be aliased to seaweed (a group of plant-shaped aquatic algaes that are not necessarily plants) which should imply algae (an informal term for photosynthetic organisms that are not land plants). Neither of them should imply plant. If we're disambiguating seaweed I'd vote for seaweed_(organism) or seaweed_(algae) for the living kind, perhaps.
Updated
moonlit-comet said:
Seaweed is algae, and many seaweeds such as brown algae seaweeds [kelp] are more closely related to malaria than it is to plants. The only thing all seaweeds have in common with plants is the eukaryota domain. Seaweeds are mostly put in the protist category [a group of things that aren't necessarily plant, animal, nor fungi]. Only green algae seaweed [Chlorophyta] is a plant in the kingdom Plantae. This site is pretty dedicated to proper taxonomy, so implying seaweed to plant would be incorrect on basis of 2/3 of the main groups of seaweeds not being plants.
If we're implying things, kelp (brown algae) should imply or be aliased to seaweed (a group of plant-shaped aquatic algaes that are not necessarily plants) which should imply algae (an informal term for photosynthetic organisms that are not land plants). Neither of them should imply plant. If we're disambiguating seaweed I'd vote for seaweed_(organism) or seaweed_(algae) for the living kind, perhaps.
I think this is overly pedantic. This is an art site, not a biology site. Think of it this way: Is someone searching for plant going to be annoyed to find seaweed in the results, or not?
I can add a trivia note on the wiki about it technically not being a plant, though.
The bulk update request #12313 is pending approval.
create implication kelp (279) -> seaweed (1058)
create implication seaweed_on_head (24) -> seaweed (1058)
Reason: Kelp is a type of seaweed (though in regards to the taxonomy debate, it is a protist, not a plant, so people may not want it to transitively imply plant when combined with the OP request). The other request is self-explanatory.
I've omitted the other seaweed* tags since they have vanishingly few uses at the moment.
beholding said:
I think this is overly pedantic. This is an art site, not a biology site. Think of it this way: Is someone searching for plant going to be annoyed to find seaweed in the results, or not?I can add a trivia note on the wiki about it technically not being a plant, though.
Considering the multitudes of taxonomical BURs and taxonomical correction BURs that have been approved over the years I see no issue in being accurate for the sake of non-animal organisms too. Saying that seaweed [multicellular aquatic algae consisting largely of protists] is always plants would be as inaccurate as saying a fungus is a plant. Implications mean, in the context of this site, that something is always true in an image. If there is a wolf there is always a canine. Seaweed is not always a plant, so it should not imply plant.
There are already multiple images on this site correctly labeling kelp as a protist_(organism). I don't see an issue in keeping that up.
moonlit-comet said:
There are already multiple images on this site correctly labeling kelp as a protist_(organism). I don't see an issue in keeping that up.
I was not aware we had a tag for protists. It could implicate that, then, sure.
Even in biology seaweed (and algae) get treated and referred to as 'plants' or 'flora' when it's convenient- fish that eat seaweed and algae are called herbivores, terms like 'garden' and 'forest' are used to describe them, etc. They're sessile photosynthetic organisms that fill similar (underwater-equivalent) niches to plants, so that's the language that gets used. Take it up with biologists.
In art, seaweed is absolutely treated as an underwater equivalent to plants. On top of that, if someone is drawing generic 'seaweed' they may very well be drawing from references of actual plants like seagrass. It can be hard or impossible to tell because you're just seeing green leafy/grassy things.
Algae are such a convoluted group regarding taxonomy, and the fact that protista/chromista/protozoa relations are still in flux and not all sources agree what is the deal between them, I am of the opinion that abstracting algae into plants is perfectly valid here. I like my taxonomy, but a line has to be drawn somewhere, and the quirks of algae taxonomy are simply unhelpful when searching for tags and the TWYS system.
I also am not really sure if the tag being used for food-prepared algae is an issue, either? We have a handful of food tags that imply plant already, fruit being the most obvious one. If it being prepared plant material rather than raw plant is the problem, dried_seaweed sounds like a good tag for that I'd say.
Meanwhile I WOULD oppose implicating anything to protist, because protists are very seldom accepted in taxonomy in the first place, they're just a way to group the oddballs together.
Updated
bugabond said:
I also am not really sure if the tag being used for food-prepared algae is an issue, either? We have a handful of food tags that imply plant already, fruit being the most obvious one. If it being prepared plant material rather than raw plant is the problem, dried_seaweed sounds like a good tag for that I'd say.
Yeah I don't think sushi seaweed implying 'plant' is worse than tomatoes, olives, or pinapple on pizza implying 'plant.'
post #5516889 post #2108566
I think seaweed should imply plant, for searchability reasons, I also don't think a prepared food item implying plant is an issue either, but I do think a dried_seaweed tag would be useful to have as well, since it is a distinct form of seaweed that appears often.
regsmutt said:
Yeah I don't think sushi seaweed implying 'plant' is worse than tomatoes, olives, or pinapple on pizza implying 'plant.'
post #5516889 post #2108566
the living_pumpkin -> food_creature problem.
dba_afish said:
the living_pumpkin -> food_creature problem.
The related fruit -> food implication is just plain bad. I mean, just from the images on the berry wiki we have straight up poison:
post #3152794
regsmutt said:
The related fruit -> food implication is just plain bad. I mean, just from the images on the berry wiki we have straight up poison:
post #3152794
regsmutt said:
Yeah I don't think sushi seaweed implying 'plant' is worse than tomatoes, olives, or pinapple on pizza implying 'plant.'
post #5516889 post #2108566
If a problem exists, we should fix it. It is very obvious plant should never be tagged on those posts.
Don't need to exacerbate the issue because we seemingly turn a blind eye to similar tags.
thegreatwolfgang said:
If a problem exists, we should fix it. It is very obvious plant should never be tagged on those posts.
Don't need to exacerbate the issue because we seemingly turn a blind eye to similar tags.
IS it a problem? And is it a problem that can be solved reliably? What's more annoying- having pineapple pizza tagged 'plant' or having posts with whole pineapples missing the 'plant' tag? When does a fruit or vegetable stop being a plant? Should there be separate tags for processed, but still recognizable, fruits/vegetables that don't imply fruit/vegetable? Should fruit/vegetable no longer imply 'plant' at all? It seems like more trouble than it's worth figuring out how to avoid pineapple chunks and (if this implication goes through) sushi seaweed being tagged as 'plant' while still getting tagged.
regsmutt said:
IS it a problem? And is it a problem that can be solved reliably? What's more annoying- having pineapple pizza tagged 'plant' or having posts with whole pineapples missing the 'plant' tag? When does a fruit or vegetable stop being a plant? Should there be separate tags for processed, but still recognizable, fruits/vegetables that don't imply fruit/vegetable? Should fruit/vegetable no longer imply 'plant' at all? It seems like more trouble than it's worth figuring out how to avoid pineapple chunks and (if this implication goes through) sushi seaweed being tagged as 'plant' while still getting tagged.
Someone already made the suggestion to unimply fruit -> plant, so it is most definitely a problem that I'm not the only one seeing.
IMO, plant should only be tagged when the whole actual plant itself can be seen, not just its fruit.
The problem gets much more worse the further something gets processed down to food, so I'm just waiting for the day someone suggests implying apple_pie with apple, only for it to be tagged with plant.
If there should be a compromise, a separate tag either on the plant end or the fruit/food end should be created whichever appropriate, such as pineapple_plant (for the whole unharvested plant) or seaweed_(food) (for the original discussion).
thegreatwolfgang said:
Someone already made the suggestion to unimply fruit -> plant, so it is most definitely a problem that I'm not the only one seeing.IMO, plant should only be tagged when the whole actual plant itself can be seen, not just its fruit.
The problem gets much more worse the further something gets processed down to food, so I'm just waiting for the day someone suggests implying apple_pie with apple, only for it to be tagged with plant.If there should be a compromise, a separate tag either on the plant end or the fruit/food end should be created whichever appropriate, such as pineapple_plant (for the whole unharvested plant) or seaweed_(food) (for the original discussion).
should flower not imply plant as well since stuff like flower_in_hair exists? when is a part of a plant no longer the plant?
should a carrot, or onion, or any other similar vegetables a plant? the edible part of it is like at least 3/4ths of the entire organism by weight.
dba_afish said:
should flower not imply plant as well since stuff like flower_in_hair exists? when is a part of a plant no longer the plant?
Probably, since neither fruit nor flower went through extensive discussion before being implicated to plant.
However, that is not part of the main discussion regarding seaweed at the moment.
should a carrot, or onion, or any other similar vegetables a plant? the edible part of it is like at least 3/4ths of the entire organism by weight.
If we can see the carrot greens or the leafy part of the onion plus maybe their roots attached, then yes.
Otherwise, I wouldn't go as far as calling a carrot_cake or onion_rings a type of "plant".
As a matter of fact, why aren't these food items implying their base ingredient? Surely, there won't be a problem if we implied them.
thegreatwolfgang said:
If a problem exists, we should fix it. It is very obvious plant should never be tagged on those posts.
Don't need to exacerbate the issue because we seemingly turn a blind eye to similar tags.
I think the best solution is to create food_plant.
Even though it's on a pizza, the pineapple is still a plant.
Then people looking for plants that are not also food can just search 'plant -food_plant'
And if people are searching for food plants (cut pineapple, etc)... well then just search 'food_plant'
kyiiel said:
I think the best solution is to create food_plant.Even though it's on a pizza, the pineapple is still a plant.
Then people looking for plants that are not also food can just search 'plant -food_plant'
And if people are searching for food plants (cut pineapple, etc)... well then just search 'food_plant'
I feel I have to ask what benefit such a tag would have. Does anyone actually care about searching for or filtering out plants that are processed into food form? I think it's simpler to just restrict plant to depictions of the full plant.