Posted under Art Talk
anyone can pose stuff in vrchat and in SFM, and you can download tools to do exactly that in many other games, so why does vrchat get a pass but if I upload a professionally composed skyrim screenshot it gets removed?
seems a bit biased/unfair.
I get that a lot of people will start uploading more screenshots and that adds to moderator/approval queue but that also still means that vrchat is getting special treatment.
VRchat screenshots aren't allowed either. But the deletions seem to be inconsistent.
moonlit-comet said:
VRchat screenshots aren't allowed either. But the deletions seem to be inconsistent.
There's a difference between screenshots and renders
donovan_dmc said:
There's a difference between screenshots and renders
Fair enough! Wasn't aware you could actually render images in VRchat.
do you have any actual examples you want to share with the class
I've thought for a long time (at least since topic #37319) that the anti-screencap guidelines date back to a time when people would just upload garbage quality 1024*768 screenshots of their Garry's Mod character having sex with a ragdoll. The quality difference between "render" and "screencap" has become increasingly close over time, and the "more effort goes into a render" argument doesn't really hold up when you can just throw together pre-made assets in SFM. Like SFM, many modern Second Life viewers allow for custom posing the models, advanced camera controls like focal length and DoF, putting together a scene, adding light sources, etc. I know there's plenty of mods for games like Skyrim that add this sort of functionality too.
Posts like post #4554364 get an exemption because the creator made the model. If anybody else did this, it would get rejected, despite the effort that went into it and the resulting quality.
Just posing a prefab model to stand upright with a prefab background and default lighting in SFM is fine however, purely because it's a render, and not a screencap. I used post #3862655 as an example in a previous topic, and no offense to the creator, it summarises my point quite perfectly. Rather than basing decisions on composition, original creativity or quality of the end result, the difference between a screencap and render effectively comes down to one thing - how intensive it was on your GPU.
faucet said:
I've thought for a long time (at least since topic #37319) that the anti-screencap guidelines date back to a time when people would just upload garbage quality 1024*768 screenshots of their Garry's Mod character having sex with a ragdoll. The quality difference between "render" and "screencap" has become increasingly close over time, and the "more effort goes into a render" argument doesn't really hold up when you can just throw together pre-made assets in SFM. Like SFM, many modern Second Life viewers allow for custom posing the models, advanced camera controls like focal length and DoF, putting together a scene, adding light sources, etc. I know there's plenty of mods for games like Skyrim that add this sort of functionality too.Posts like post #4554364 get an exemption because the creator made the model. If anybody else did this, it would get rejected, despite the effort that went into it and the resulting quality.
Just posing a prefab model to stand upright with a prefab background and default lighting in SFM is fine however, purely because it's a render, and not a screencap. I used post #3862655 as an example in a previous topic, and no offense to the creator, it summarises my point quite perfectly. Rather than basing decisions on composition, original creativity or quality of the end result, the difference between a screencap and render effectively comes down to one thing - how intensive it was on your GPU.
that second example really does sell your point for me
donovan_dmc said:
There's a difference between screenshots and renders
You're correct and VRChat is not capable of rendering the way Blender is. SFM is not capable of that either.
lafcadio said:
do you have any actual examples you want to share with the class
Sure! Anything here that isn't traditional artwork :)
Most of these are just F12 from photomode.
https://e621.net/posts?tags=vrchat
https://e621.net/posts/5721355
https://e621.net/posts/5619087
faucet said:
how intensive it was on your GPU.
Blender can render using CPU as can a lot of other 3D CAD programs.
Also, games present their graphics in a method called rendering. Most specifically use rasterization, and path tracing is still a new technique within games.
zoeykl said:
Sure! Anything here that isn't traditional artwork :)Most of these are just F12 from photomode.
Come on now. Be serious.
This post has never been approved, so you can't use it as a "gotcha" if you want to try and prove that posts are being approved incorrectly.
Rendered in Blender. You are wrong.
This also is not in VRChat, the artist has a bunch of high-quality renders and animations that would be nigh impossible to create in VRChat, short of scripting all the camera stuff and animations yourself, at which point you could just use Blender anyway.
Yet another artist working in Blender.
lafcadio said:
This also is not in VRChat, the artist has a bunch of high-quality renders and animations that would be nigh impossible to create in VRChat, short of scripting all the camera stuff and animations yourself, at which point you could just use Blender anyway.
That's kind of the point though, isn't it? As faucet said:
The quality difference between "render" and "screencap" has become increasingly close over time, and the "more effort goes into a render" argument doesn't really hold up when you can just throw together pre-made assets in SFM. Like SFM, many modern Second Life viewers allow for custom posing the models, advanced camera controls like focal length and DoF, putting together a scene, adding light sources, etc. I know there's plenty of mods for games like Skyrim that add this sort of functionality too.
Posts like post #4554364 get an exemption because the creator made the model. If anybody else did this, it would get rejected, despite the effort that went into it and the resulting quality.
Sure, that person could just use Blender anyway, but what if they don't want to? It's not our place to be saying what creators should or shouldn't use, we should only care that the result is decent enough for posting here. For plenty of people, it is exactly that challenge of getting something good out of something that's less capable that they find fun or appealing, and if they manage to make something good, why prevent posting it here just because of what it was made with?
Hell, people use Unreal Engine 5, a game engine, to make cinema-quality CGI. If you take a video or snapshot of something you made with UE5, is that a screencap or a render?
watsit said:
For plenty of people, it is exactly that challenge of getting something good out of something that's less capable that they find fun or appealing, and if they manage to make something good, why prevent posting it here just because of what it was made with?
I'd agree with the principle, and think a re-evaluation of the rule would be wise, but if we're talking about currently approved posts as Lafcadio was, the proposed existence of a person who's a VRChat analogue to keke-flipnote doesn't mean these posts were made with VRChat.
watsit said:
That's kind of the point though, isn't it? As faucet said:
Sure, that person could just use Blender anyway, but what if they don't want to? It's not our place to be saying what creators should or shouldn't use, we should only care that the result is decent enough for posting here. For plenty of people, it is exactly that challenge of getting something good out of something that's less capable that they find fun or appealing, and if they manage to make something good, why prevent posting it here just because of what it was made with?
I wouldn't complain if the policy was relaxed; people do a lot of very interesting things with systems like Final Fantasy XIV's photo mode. In the case of FF14, various mods exist to allow custom assets and custom poses without, say, requiring every single clothing piece and environment to be converted, imported, and fixed, and character models are also a bit of a pain in the ass to convert because different armor pieces make up different parts of the body, colors/materials can be altered by players and aren't just baked 1:1 into the texture. If you're a first-time user and don't have the workflow immediately ready to go, it's arguably easier to compose your shots and animations ingame instead of converting everything for Blender use.
My complaint is that it is silly to look at the 3D art in the vrchat tag and immediately assume that most of it is going to be ingame captures. Characters like Haishima are associated with VRChat because they're VRChat avatars, but you get all the source files so you can absolutely, 100%, just animate and pose in traditional modeling software (post #5560120).
If anything, maybe we're using the VRChat tag too liberally, or maybe things like rexouium should just imply VRC outright.
lafcadio said:
My complaint is that it is silly to look at the 3D art in the vrchat tag and immediately assume that most of it is going to be ingame captures. Characters like Haishima are associated with VRChat because they're VRChat avatars, but you get all the source files so you can absolutely, 100%, just animate and pose in traditional modeling software (post #5560120).If anything, maybe we're using the VRChat tag too liberally, or maybe things like rexouium should just imply VRC outright.
That sounds like an issue, yes. Like most other copyright tags, a post should only be tagged with vrchat if something VRChat-owned appears, e.g. a VRCchat mascot character or the VRChat UI. A character/species simply being a model some third-parties made and use for VRChat, and the model subsequently ported/converted to and rendered in some non-VRChat app, shouldn't be tagged vrchat. We wouldn't tag unity_(engine) or unity_(software) because someone got models made by a third-party in its asset store and made something with them in Blender.
lafcadio said:
https://e621.net/posts/5619087
Rendered in Blender. You are wrong.
how do you know that ones blender? the artist even tags it as just vrchat https://x.com/FaronFloofAD/status/1930028297376678068
edit; nvm i meant that they said its vrchat on their twitter, didnt see they tagged blender on this sites upload
aacafah said:
I'd agree with the principle, and think a re-evaluation of the rule would be wise, but if we're talking about currently approved posts as Lafcadio was, the proposed existence of a person who's a VRChat analogue to keke-flipnote doesn't mean these posts were made with VRChat.
this is just me asking a potentially stupid question but since you mentioned keke-flipnote, we all know that one artist who makes all of those bouncy animations on 3ds, right? what do those count as? i feel really stupid because hes just drawing with a stylus on 3ds but im curious
jhudson said:
how do you know that ones blender? the artist even tags it as just vrchat https://x.com/FaronFloofAD/status/1930028297376678068
edit; nvm i meant that they said its vrchat on their twitter, didnt see they tagged blender on this sites upload
In a nutshell:
If I recall correctly, cell phone photos used to be explicitly considered 'bad things to upload' because even the highest quality cell phone photo was still grainy, blurry, and weird compared to a cheap scanner. As quality increased and the difference between a mediocre scan and a well-taken phone photo became smaller (and arguably non-existent), the rules were relaxed. I don't know enough about renders vs screenshots, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to relax the rules if screenshots/captures are nearing the quality of renders.
lafcadio said:
In a nutshell:
- WIP Blender shots on artist's Twitter.
- This level of cloth simulation is highly unusual for VRChat.
- VRChat's realtime lighting is much more simplistic than this. There have been some recent community advancements on that front, Light Volumes are really good, but not this good, and you'd likely run into issues trying to get a simulated cloth to have ambient occlusion.
i see i see
thank you, i only ever really notice those things after theyre pointed out but i can notice them when i look for what you said
jhudson said:
this is just me asking a potentially stupid question but since you mentioned keke-flipnote, we all know that one artist who makes all of those bouncy animations on 3ds, right? what do those count as? i feel really stupid because hes just drawing with a stylus on 3ds but im curious
Digital 2D animation? I'm not sure exactly what you mean.
lafcadio said:
Come on now. Be serious.This post has never been approved, so you can't use it as a "gotcha" if you want to try and prove that posts are being approved incorrectly.
Rendered in Blender. You are wrong.
This also is not in VRChat, the artist has a bunch of high-quality renders and animations that would be nigh impossible to create in VRChat, short of scripting all the camera stuff and animations yourself, at which point you could just use Blender anyway.
Yet another artist working in Blender.
So why do they have the VRChat tag then? If it's not a stock vrchat model, and nothing else is noticeably vrchat, then why is the tag even there?
aacafah said:
Digital 2D animation? I'm not sure exactly what you mean.
yeah i knew my question was stupid
thats just where my brain went when i read keke flipnote
jhudson said:
yeah i knew my question was stupid
thats just where my brain went when i read keke flipnote
I would say ill-presented over stupid.
Why is it so hard to distinguish between edit and reply
