Posted under Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions
The tag alias #74754 clitoral_fingering -> clitoral_rubbing has been approved.
Reason: A suggestion by Watsit in forum #435863 to change the name of the tag clitoral_fingering.
EDIT: The tag alias clitoral_fingering -> clitoral_rubbing (forum #435915) has been approved by @spe.
Updated by auto moderator
Seems incredibly pointless, especially considering that even the wikipedia article on fingering opens with:
"Fingering is sexual stimulation of the vulva (including the clitoris) or vagina by using the fingers."
So I'm not sure why clitoral_rubbing, which is currently only used on 53 posts, should take priority over clitoral_fingering, which is used on 2498 posts. Especially without any substantive reason given as to why clitoral_fingering is an inaccurate, or otherwise problematic tag.
Mm... I liked this because we could finally imply fingering to penetration, if we separate external rubbing out. But I also don't like when we alter real-world definitions. Tough decision
wandering_spaniel said:
Mm... I liked this because we could finally imply fingering to penetration, if we separate external rubbing out. But I also don't like when we alter real-world definitions. Tough decision
The "real world definition" that SmallGreyBird is quoting also specifically states fingering is stimulation of the vulva, so our other tags like anal_fingering or nipple_fingering are already wrong 🤷♀️
Working with slang terms is difficult because people are always doing to interpret it differently. The legal term "digital penetration" would cover all orifices and not be ambiguous as to whether it includes rubbing or not... but anal_digital_penetration or ditital_penetration_of_the_anus are very clunky tags.
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I've always wanted fingering to imply penetration, but clitoral fingering has always been the problem. But perhaps fingering doesn't need to imply it at all?
In the first place we'd want to imply the act to the more specific penetration tag as well as fingering. This would be the case even if fingering did imply penetration:
Nobody should be tagging the fingering umbrella tag without specifying the orifice (I'm sure it happens all the time though) so I think it would be fine for fingering to not imply penetration at all, meaning we don't need to do anything about clitoral fingering and the other tags can still be penetration.
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Back onto topic of the actual alias request, I feel like "clitoral rubbing" is too vague. It no longer specifies fingers, and could mistakenly be used for rubbing against a penis, sex toy, corner of a table, etc.
faucet said:
I've always wanted fingering to imply penetration, but clitoral fingering has always been the problem. But perhaps fingering doesn't need to imply it at all?In the first place we'd want to imply the act to the more specific penetration tag as well as fingering. This would be the case even if fingering did imply penetration:
Same problem. If "fingering" isn't exclusively penetration, then anal_fingering can be referring to rubbing the entrance of the anus with fingers without penetrating it, and nipple_fingering would just be nipple_play with fingers, so they can't imply penetration either. If we accept fingering as applying to non-penetrative acts with fingers, that would apply to all x_fingering and x_fingered (and x_fingering_y) tags being potentially non-penetrative. But nobody really thinks of it that way. clitoral_fingering is the only one that stands out here, and as the other thread shows, the naming confuses people into thinking it should imply fingering, which is otherwise considered a penetrative act. That makes this alias (or something like it) good; people used to using clitoral_fingering can continue to do so, while the tag being clitoral_rubbing or something clarifies it's not fingering for e6's purposes.
faucet said:
The "real world definition" that SmallGreyBird is quoting also specifically states fingering is stimulation of the vulva, so our other tags like anal_fingering or nipple_fingering are already wrong
I didn't think it was relevant to mention here but Wikipedia also explicitly includes anal_fingering. And it seems reasonable to assume that it would also apply to non-human orifices.
watsit said:
Same problem. If "fingering" isn't exclusively penetration, then anal_fingering can be referring to rubbing the entrance of the anus with fingers without penetrating it, and nipple_fingering would just be nipple_play with fingers, so they can't imply penetration either. If we accept fingering as applying to non-penetrative acts with fingers, that would apply to all x_fingering and x_fingered (and x_fingering_y) tags being potentially non-penetrative. But nobody really thinks of it that way. clitoral_fingering is the only one that stands out here, and as the other thread shows, the naming confuses people into thinking it should imply fingering, which is otherwise considered a penetrative act. That makes this alias (or something like it) good; people used to using clitoral_fingering can continue to do so, while the tag being clitoral_rubbing or something clarifies it's not fingering for e6's purposes.
One issue with using "rubbing" is that it is more ambiguous than fingering. Afaik rubbing doesn't really specify the use of fingers, or even hands, at least not the real life definition. Though fingering is already sometimes tagged on things involving feet.
faucet said:
Working with slang terms is difficult because people are always doing to interpret it differently. The legal term "digital penetration" would cover all orifices and not be ambiguous as to whether it includes rubbing or not... but anal_digital_penetration or ditital_penetration_of_the_anus are very clunky tags.
Other types of penetration also don't work like that though, you would tag penis_in_ass not anal_penile_penetration, so I would suggest just using finger_in_ass or perhaps finger_in_anus.or use the plural fingers.
watsit said:
Same problem. If "fingering" isn't exclusively penetration, then anal_fingering can be referring to rubbing the entrance of the anus with fingers without penetrating it, and nipple_fingering would just be nipple_play with fingers, so they can't imply penetration either. If we accept fingering as applying to non-penetrative acts with fingers, that would apply to all x_fingering and x_fingered (and x_fingering_y) tags being potentially non-penetrative. But nobody really thinks of it that way. clitoral_fingering is the only one that stands out here, and as the other thread shows, the naming confuses people into thinking it should imply fingering, which is otherwise considered a penetrative act. That makes this alias (or something like it) good; people used to using clitoral_fingering can continue to do so, while the tag being clitoral_rubbing or something clarifies it's not fingering for e6's purposes.
Rubbing and poking around on the outside isn't a terribly rare use of the tags. Leaving it so it doesn't imply/require penetration also allows for it to be tagged on stuff that's not super clear if it's rubbing or just super shallow penetration, or stuff where the fingers go past the outer labia but it's unclear if they penetrate the vaginal opening or not.
Rubbing also seems to be used in situations that don't involve fingers already, like vaginal_rubbing seems to have a few posts with tentacles. And there is also tail_rubbing which seems to be the tail equivalent of non-penetrative fingering. Clitoral_rubbing isn't a terrible tag, but it doesn't seem equivalent to clitoral_fingering.
alias anal_fingering -> anal_plunking
j/k
It gets more annoying when trying to search for something like these: post #2768852 post #1339407 post #5088487
Updated
I looked into the tags a bit more and I realised a bigger issue with this alias.
Though the rubbing tags don't seem super well defined at the moment, it does seem to be the case that rubbing_pussy and rubbing_penis are far more popular than pussy_rubbing and penis_rubbing.
I think we should probably reconsider if we should be using clitoral_rubbing at all, because it doesn't really seem to fit in with the other rubbing tags. most of them use rubbing_* for the body part being rubbed, and *_rubbing seems to be sporadically used to refer to the body part that does the rubbing (mostly tail_rubbing).
I'm still not a fan of aliasing away clitoral_fingering, but if we do it probably shouldn't be aliased to clitoral_rubbing, and also probably not before we actually try to come up with some kind of plan for the rubbing tags, which seem like they could use some cleaning up.
I would like to note that there is an existing clitoris_rubbing tag that will need to be dealt with first.
Though the rubbing tags don't seem super well defined at the moment, it does seem to be the case that rubbing_pussy and rubbing_penis are far more popular than pussy_rubbing and penis_rubbing.
I think we should probably reconsider if we should be using clitoral_rubbing at all, because it doesn't really seem to fit in with the other rubbing tags. most of them use rubbing_* for the body part being rubbed, and *_rubbing seems to be sporadically used to refer to the body part that does the rubbing (mostly tail_rubbing).
I'll link to the full lists sorted by count so we have more concrete data.
As you say, rubbing_* has more uses, but I would argue *_rubbing is better for consistency with the *_fingering tags.
Looking through the tagged posts, I see a problem: There's a ton of overlap between rubbing and frottage; similarly, clitoris_rubbing depicts a lot of tribadism and butt_rubbing includes ass_to_ass. penis_rubbing is even worse, as it's also tagged for a lot of pussyjob images. Do we want one to imply the other, or make a hard distinction between the two?
Additionally, ball_rubbing has already been aliased to ball_fondling, which I agree is a more accurate description of what's usually depicted, but I don't know if we should apply the same reasoning to rubbing other external anatomy such as bulge_rubbing, penis_rubbing, and butt_rubbing.
Updated
The bulk update request #11312 is pending approval.
create alias bulge_rubbing (454) -> bulge_fondling (710)
Reason: Let's put my previous suggestion to a vote. Note that this will require significant cleanup, as many posts currently tagged depict bulge_frottage.
Updated
The tag alias clitoral_fingering -> clitoral_rubbing (forum #435915) has been approved by @spe.
