The term "intersex" is misused on this site to a confusing degree. Intersex describes someone who is born in a body that can neither be described as entirely male nor female (such as having ambiguous genetalia, gynecomastia, androgen insensitivity syndrom, or one of a myriad of other conditions). In fact, we have a Lore tag (intersex_(lore)) that takes this into account.

It's kinda odd that we use that term when it literally does not mean what we use it to mean. I understand that it was probably chosen due to a lack of suitable alternatives, but it just seems incredibly confusing on the surface.

Also, Tagging on E6 tends to effect how other websites tend to tag furry porn (inkbunny, reddit, etc.), and it's starting to bleed into how the word intersex is perceived in some circles. As an intersex person myself, it kinda bothers me how trans people and characters in the online furry sphere are sometimes referred to as intersex, when they are often not.

I've seen the word 'Altersex' thrown around in trans amd intersex circles to describe a body that has male and female traits, but is not necessarily intersex. I think that this would be a much better descriptor of these characters, as well as more sensitive to the intersex users of this site and the surrounding furry community.

First of all I'd like to say that I'm cis, not intersex, so I understand that I'm coming at this from an outside perspective.

Per the first result on google for "intersex", which comes from plannedparenthood.org:

What does intersex mean? Intersex is a general term used for a variety of situations in which a person is born with reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn't fit the boxes of “female” or “male.”

Per the first paragraph of Wikipedia's article on "Intersex":

Intersex people are individuals born with any of several sex characteristics including chromosome patterns, gonads, or genitals that, according to the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, "do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies".

The crucial operative word here is "born." That can't realistically be determined by TWYS for 99.999999% of posts, so very very few posts on this site would actually warrant being tagged as "intersex" going by these definitions, the same way very few posts can be tagged visibly_trans according to guidelines, and there are even fewer ways to visually indicate someone was born intersex than there is to visually indicate a character is transitioning.

All that to say, I see your point. However, we do still have to consider what the popular conception of the word "intersex" is when laying out rules for tags, and it's very common in furry circles to use terms like "intersex male/female" to refer to masculine characters with vulvas and feminine characters with penises, respectively. That's the term everyone seems to know, whether or not it's definitionally correct. We don't go by the dictionary definition of "anthropomorphic" when tagging anthros, because it would apply to a lot of humanoids and animate_inanimates that the furry community wouldn't typically think of as "anthro." Thus the tag is technically short for "anthropomorphic animals" instead of just "anthropomorphic." It could be argued that intersex is really short for "intersex by appearance." Which would fit gynomorphs, andromorphs, herms and maleherms as if you leave out the "born" part of the definition of "intersex" they all pretty much fit.

I do empathize with your point, though. If we don't tag "trans" because it relates more to the character's past than their appearance and doesn't fit TWYS, we probably shouldn't be calling characters "intersex" by their appearance only. I would support aliasing "intersex" to something more appropriate for an umbrella tag of gynomorph/andromorph/herm/maleherm although I'm not sure if "altersex" is the best choice.

pankino2002 said:

I would support aliasing "intersex" to something more appropriate for an umbrella tag of gynomorph/andromorph/herm/maleherm although I'm not sure if "altersex" is the best choice.

From the alias shortcut perspective, altersex would be a pretty bad name. We already have andromorph and ambiguous_gender for the genders, which are represented by am and a respectively (and with the inclusion of form, there's anthro). Adding another "a" tag is something i would not recommend.

snpthecat said:
From the alias shortcut perspective, altersex would be a pretty bad name. We already have andromorph and ambiguous_gender for the genders, which are represented by am and a respectively (and with the inclusion of form, there's anthro). Adding another "a" tag is something i would not recommend.

more notably, the abbreviations used in the actual tagnames of the crossgender/gender_transformation tags.

Honestly as much as the change away from the old tag was needed (irc the tag before was hermaphrodite), (I was wrong lol) intersex didn't really feel like the best fit. It's a medical and identity term that doesn't match the definition here. Characters with realistic intersex characteristics (which also overlap with visibly_trans features) largely don't get tagged (and can't get tagged under twys) intersex.

snpthecat said:
From the alias shortcut perspective, altersex would be a pretty bad name. We already have andromorph and ambiguous_gender for the genders, which are represented by am and a respectively (and with the inclusion of form, there's anthro). Adding another "a" tag is something i would not recommend.

To be fair, does anybody search for or tag *intersex* tags? I'd expect more specific tags to be tagged or searched like *andromorph*, and the corresponding *intersex* tag is implied for blacklist purposes.

regsmutt said:
Honestly as much as the change away from the old tag was needed (irc the tag before was hermaphrodite)

AFAIK, it's always been intersex. If there ever was a time it wasn't, it must've been in the first few years of this site's history. Herm is a separate tag that we still use.

crocogator said:
To be fair, does anybody search for or tag *intersex* tags? I'd expect more specific tags to be tagged or searched like *andromorph*, and the corresponding *intersex* tag is implied for blacklist purposes.

I can tell you pretty emphatically that there are people who tag just intersex all the time. if i had to guess why, it's at least partially because, _{_unfortunately_}, i/f, i/m, and i/i are the only pairings with click boxes available in the upload form, none of the more specific four categories. and also ambiguous_gender is entirely absent, which also may be why ambiguous characters tend to also be tagged intersex.

dba_afish said:
I can tell you pretty emphatically that there are people who tag just intersex all the time. if i had to guess why, it's at least partially because, _{_unfortunately_}, i/f, i/m, and i/i are the only pairings with click boxes available in the upload form, none of the more specific four categories. and also ambiguous_gender is entirely absent, which also may be why ambiguous characters tend to also be tagged intersex.

Don't forget about the many, many people used to rule34 and other booru terminology who tag "futa" instead of gynomorph which then gets aliased to intersex.

Since we have maleherm from hermaphrodites with a male body, it makes sense to have a "femherm" tag for hermaphrodites with a female body. It’s not an official gender tag and would mirror nicely with the male tag if it existed.

We could move all current herm posts to femherm, and once all posts are tagged correctly, start using herm as the new umbrella tag and alias intersex to it?

Edit: slightly irrelevant to the convo, I own a rescued bearded dragon who is intersex. Their species can change gender while inside the egg if the incubation temperature gets too hot. Mine was only too hot on one side, so only half of their body transitionned. They like blackberries.

. intersex -gynomorph -andromorph -herm -maleherm = 57 pages

post #2217873

pleaseletmein said:
. intersex -gynomorph -andromorph -herm -maleherm = 57 pages

post #2217873

yeah, that's probably my next tag project after the current set.
_{it'll probably be light work after 166 pages of peni.}

Also there's probably a lot of people who don't know the correct uses of the specific tags or who don't want to start a controversy on an image where it's not super obvious.

dimoretpinel said:
Since we have maleherm from hermaphrodites with a male body, it makes sense to have a "femherm" tag for hermaphrodites with a female body. It’s not an official gender tag and would mirror nicely with the male tag if it existed.

Maleherm exists because herm is already "female herm", I don't see what we would gain by changing a well known term to an unused term

I think I may have derailed things a bit with my poorly phrased comment. I just meant if we did change intersex -> altersex, then (as an example) what to rename mti_transformation is not all that pressing of a matter, since it's unlikely anyone would manually type the tag in in the first place.

donovan_dmc said:
Maleherm exists because herm is already "female herm", I don't see what we would gain by changing a well known term to an unused term

We’re thinking of possible alternatives for the tag name "Intersex". Herm could replace Intersex as the new umbrella term. However, if we decided to alias intersex to herm, the site would need a new tag for female-bodied hermaphrodites.

It’s just brainstorming a bit.

dimoretpinel said:
Herm could replace Intersex as the new umbrella term

That.. seems like just about the worst change that could be made
Not even taking into account that it's been used with its current definition for over a decade, andromorph and gynomorph characters quite literally are not hermaphrodites

donovan_dmc said:
That.. seems like just about the worst change that could be made

Do you have a different term to suggest? So far we got "altersex" and "hermaphrodite"(herm).

You can also just say you want to keep the original "intersex" the way it is.

dimoretpinel said:
Do you have a different term to suggest? So far we got "altersex" and "hermaphrodite"(herm).

You can also just say you want to keep the original "intersex" the way it is.

I would prefer sticking to the original name because I do not envy the hassle. It might also get stuck halfway, so only the base tag is changed and its derivatives are not, leading to a bit of confusion

snpthecat said:
I would prefer sticking to the original name because I do not envy the hassle. It might also get stuck halfway, so only the base tag is changed and its derivatives are not, leading to a bit of confusion

I appreciate the clear, concise answer! This makes a lot of sense. Adding a mention to ReinaYeen

While I’m starting to be on SNP’s side here, because I remember the cubpocalypse, I also just remembered the term "duosex", which I saw on r/Salmacian.

Duosex refers to any mix of primary or secondary sex characteristics from both male and female. Maybe this word would be preffered to "Altersex" because the abbreviation would be "d" instead of "a" and might have a more accurate definition than "herm".

dimoretpinel said:
Do you have a different term to suggest? So far we got "altersex" and "hermaphrodite"(herm).

You can also just say you want to keep the original "intersex" the way it is.

I still don't get how herm is even in the running considering andromorph and gynomorph literally are not hermaphrodites
The definition of hermaphrodite is:

an organism having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics, either abnormally or (in the case of some organisms) as the natural condition.

Each andromorph and gynomorph only has a single primary sexual characteristic from either gender. Breasts are a secondary sexual characteristic (just the same as pubes, hair, and deep voices are), and a lack thereof isn't anything special either.
Exchanging a medical term we use incorrectly with another medical term we'd be using incorrectly isn't going to help anyone. It'll just make things worse considering how widespread the "dual sex organs" part of hermaphrodites is known.

I personally don't think we need any umbrella tag for them, but I know that won't go over well. What we have now is fine as is.

"Herm" as the new umbrella term is probably the worst of all worlds, honestly. It isn't accurate to the definition of "hermaphrodite", it leaves characters who identify as "herm" with a new term nobody has heard of before, and the word "hermaphrodite" is already laden with cultural baggage that make it unlikely to get many thumbs up on an alias request. It was hard enough to get people to agree on gynomorph and andromorph, going back to herm feels like a step backwards. If we have to invent a new term due to currently existing ones not fitting or having baggage, I'd prefer one that's both snappy and etymologically accurate. "Altersex" isn't that bad in that regard--although I'd like to see more options. "Nonbinary" came to mind when I was thinking initially, but that term is more related to gender identity than sex or physical traits.

"Androgyne" could be another option, as it basically means "having both male and female traits." It's more commonly used than altersex, but it shares the problem of overlapping with "andromorph" for tagging and autocompletion purposes.

donovan_dmc said:
I still don't get how herm is even in the running

I aknowledge your correction, but the tone of the rest of your message seems to be annoyed; it’s still in the running because we’re simply pitching ideas. Thinking about ways to fix ReinaYeen’s problem, or just leaving things as-is.

What we have now is fine as is.

Thank you for your imput. So far it seems most of the thread agrees to leave things as-is.

pankino2002 said:
"Androgyne" could be another option, as it basically means "having both male and female traits." It's more commonly used than altersex, but it shares the problem of overlapping with "andromorph" for tagging and autocompletion purposes.

It also has the abbreviation issue. Like SNPthecat said earlier, there’s already "a" for andromorph and "am" for ambiguous.

dimoretpinel said:
It also has the abbreviation issue. Like SNPthecat said earlier, there’s already "a" for andromorph and "am" for ambiguous.

Could be shortened to "ag". Or "andromorph" could be renamed. Doing both would cause even more headache, though.

I'm still firmly on the side of upending the status quo for the sake of accuracy and respect to intersexed people. We had to invent entirely new terms to capture the ideas of andromorph and gynomorph, I'm sure we can wrack our brains again and make this right.

pankino2002 said:
"Androgyne" could be another option, as it basically means "having both male and female traits." It's more commonly used than altersex, but it shares the problem of overlapping with "andromorph" for tagging and autocompletion purposes.

the problem with "andrgyne" is also used as a synonym for "androgynous" which is closer to ambiguous_gender than intersex.

dimoretpinel said:
It also has the abbreviation issue. Like SNPthecat said earlier, there’s already "a" for andromorph and "am" for ambiguous.

am is andromorph too... ambiguous is ? or ag (and sometimes it's also a...)

I don’t think "duosex" would overlap with anything? I don’t know the abbreviations but no official gender tag that currently exists starts with a D.

I like altersex, and the alternatives I can think of are wordy- alternative_genital_arrangement or unconventional_genital_arrangement. Shortened to aga/uga respectively.
The only benefit of these is that it doesn't look like a tag that's complete on its own, encouraging more specific tagging.

regsmutt said:
I like altersex, and the alternatives I can think of are wordy- alternative_genital_arrangement or unconventional_genital_arrangement.

alternative_genital_arrangement sounds like an umbrella term for things like penis_arm
post #3821088

regsmutt said:
I like altersex, and the alternatives I can think of are wordy- alternative_genital_arrangement or unconventional_genital_arrangement. Shortened to aga/uga respectively.
The only benefit of these is that it doesn't look like a tag that's complete on its own, encouraging more specific tagging.

I kinda like unconventional_genital_arrangement. It's very clearly a tag that isn't meant to be used on its own--just like intersex, but obvious. u doesn't overlap with anything, and 'uga' sounds funny to say out loud. It might be hard to convince people on it, though.

Couple alternatives off the top of my head:
nonbinary_sexual_characteristics
overlapping_sexual_characteristics

Pair these with an update to the upload form that includes more gender/gender combinations.
_{I think referring to nonstandard sexes as "overlappers" would be cute.}

donovan_dmc said:
I personally don't think we need any umbrella tag for them

agree tbh

pleaseletmein said:
agree tbh

I think the 57 pages of lonesome intersex tags from earlier speak for themselves on the importance of having the umbrella term.

I also wouldn't mind getting rid of intersex altogether, but I know some people are lazy and want to be able to just type "-intersex" instead of all of the non-conventional genders. But other than that I don't really see a utility in having an umbrella tag. Maybe we could just get rid of all the pointless tags like ith_transformation and intersex_penetrating_human.

dimoretpinel said:
I think the 57 pages of lonesome intersex tags from earlier speak for themselves on the importance of having the umbrella term.

As mentioned before, that's almost entirely the fault of people typing "futa" or clicking "intersex/female" on the upload form. Futa can easily be invalidated and more options can be added to the upload form, I'd recommend some dropdowns for combinations involving a nonbinary sex.

dimoretpinel said:
I think the 57 pages of lonesome intersex tags from earlier speak for themselves on the importance of having the umbrella term.

that's a product of the current tag system and the way the default uploader is set up.

dimoretpinel said:
I think the 57 pages of lonesome intersex tags from earlier speak for themselves on the importance of having the umbrella term.

-male -female -herm -maleherm -gynomorph -andromorph -ambiguous_gender -zero_pictured limit:320 is 220 pages (70,234 posts)
intersex -herm -maleherm -gynomorph -andromorph limit:320 is 14 pages (4,204 posts)

pankino2002 said:
I kinda like unconventional_genital_arrangement. It's very clearly a tag that isn't meant to be used on its own--just like intersex, but obvious.

It isn't to me. It sounds like something relating to penis_tongue or tail_pussy, where the genitals are arranged in unconventional locations.

I honestly don't see what's wrong with keeping it as intersex. Where a character's sexual characteristics are a mix of male and female, they're inter-sex, between the primary sexes. "Altersex" sounds like alternative-sex, having a sex outside of the bimodal distribution common to mammals and separate from male/intersex/female line (which I could maybe see as applying to certain animals, insects, or the like that don't fit a male-female spectrum, though I don't know biology and physiology well enough to know how practical such tagging would be).

dimoretpinel said:
I think the 57 pages of lonesome intersex tags from earlier speak for themselves on the importance of having the umbrella term.

I'd argue that is a good reason to not have such an umbrella. The presence of the intersex tag allows people to lazily tag characters as intersex only, which they're not supposed to do, instead of being more accurate. Without the blanket intersex tag, people would have to properly tag the sex, and get saddled with warnings/records if they leave it untagged or keep using the wrong thing (e.g. tagging gynomorphs as herms when no pussy is visible).

pleaseletmein said:
that's a product of the current tag system and the way the default uploader is set up.

The uploader having intersex/intersex, intersex/male, and intersex/female annoys the fuck out of me since there is not a situation in which any of those should be directly used

I'd like to note that intersex -herm -maleherm -gynomorph -andromorph -intersex/intersex -intersex/male -intersex/female limit:320 has only 6 pages (1,827 posts), less than half of the total untagged intersex posts, meaning the majority is very likely coming from the uploader (reinforcing your point)

pankino2002 said:

"Nonbinary" came to mind when I was thinking initially, but that term is more related to gender identity than sex or physical traits.

pankino2002 said:

Couple alternatives off the top of my head:
nonbinary_sexual_characteristics

I would advise against using non-binary. It basically has the same problem as using intersex

Mixed_sexual_characteristics? It shortens to msc which looks kinda like miscellaneous, which is kinda fitting.
I kinda leans towards losing the umbrella term though. At best it allows for things that don't readily fit into the existing categories, at worst it enables laziness.

regsmutt said:
At best it allows for things that don't readily fit into the existing categories, at worst it enables laziness.

Speaking of, where does virile_pussy fit?

dimoretpinel said:
Speaking of, where does virile_pussy fit?

we treat it the same as an ovipositor_penis. just base it off of what genitals the character visibly has, not necessarily what those genitals are able to do.

if it looks like a pussy, and is being used roughly how you'd expect one to be used that's all it is. and if it looks like a penis, and is being used roughly how you'd expect one to be used that's all it is... unless it's not.

dimoretpinel said:
Speaking of, where does virile_pussy fit?

Not so sure I like the name for that tag, but I don't have any viable alternatives

dimoretpinel said:
Speaking of, where does virile_pussy fit?

snpthecat said:
Not so sure I like the name for that tag, but I don't have any viable alternatives

If you want to be technical about it, men are virile and women are muliebrile. But it seems that virile_pussy is for situations where the female genitals are acting like a male's.

donovan_dmc said:
The uploader having intersex/intersex, intersex/male, and intersex/female annoys the fuck out of me since there is not a situation in which any of those should be directly used

Another issue that the uploader being like this causes:

intersex/male ~herm ~maleherm ~gynomorph ~andromorph -herm/male -maleherm/male -gynomorph/male -andromorph/male limit:320
= 22 pages (6,742 posts)

intersex/female ~herm ~maleherm ~gynomorph ~andromorph -herm/female -maleherm/female -gynomorph/female -andromorph/female limit:320
= 16 pages (4,949 posts)

intersex/intersex ~herm ~maleherm ~gynomorph ~andromorph -herm/herm -herm/maleherm -herm/gynomorph -herm/andromorph -maleherm/maleherm -maleherm/gynomorph -maleherm/andromorph -gynomorph/gynomorph -gynomorph/andromorph -andromorph/andromorph limit:320
= 10 pages (3,135 posts)

Total = 47 pages (14,826 posts)

reinayeen said:
As for other alternatives to intersex, well, the obvious one is 'transsexual' but i know gringos are afraid of that word so it probably wouldn't fly here.

Altermale and Alterfemale could be alternatives. Ive also seen Transfeminine and Transmasculine as options, but i know the argument is that some people might not want to have their characters implied to be trans (lame), even if that's not what those terms mean necessarily.

Anything with "trans" in it is definitely a no-go since some characters aren't transitioning, they're just born/created that way, it's fantasy. I know that isn't satisfying to a lot of people but it's just kind of the way it is.

reinayeen said:
Also way off topic but what are the chances of reevaluating the andromorph and gynomorph tags? I know a lot of artists are understandably put off by those tags and choose to stay off the site.

Probably very low because that crowd of people aren't going to be satisfied with any alternative to those terms unless it has "trans" in it which doesn't work for the reason I just mentioned. We'd also probably need to get rid of TWYS cause those people also don't like it when their trans character is tagged "male" on the basis that their breasts aren't visible, either. There's no way to please everyone without throwing out the whole system and losing e621's purpose and identity.

reinayeen said:
could the uploader just display something like alt/f and alt/m?

That.. doesn't solve the problem at all? The options being on the uploader in the first place is the problem

reinayeen said:
Also way off topic but what are the chances of reevaluating the andromorph and gynomorph tags? I know a lot of artists are understandably put off by those tags and choose to stay off the site. Altermale and Alterfemale could be alternatives.

I also don't see how that would solve anything, those terms are too broad, we already have well defined terms we've used for years. Broadly, altermale/female could apply to both andromorph/maleherm and gynomorph/herm

Considering these terms are so widespread that other sites actively use them, I don't think there's any reason to change them. People will complain regardless of what terms we use due to how our gender tagging works, any change in terms isn't going to fix that

reinayeen said:
the obvious one is 'transsexual' but i know gringos are afraid of that word so it probably wouldn't fly here.

How is it obvious? Yet again replacing a misused term with another misused term helps no one, this is just as bad if not worse than trying to use herm as an umbrella tag

reinayeen said:
Ive also seen Transfeminine and Transmasculine as options, but i know the argument is that some people might not want to have their characters implied to be trans (lame), even if that's not what those terms mean necessarily.

This is also definitely the worst of both worlds, imagine how a trans person feels when someone invalidates them. What are they doing? They're pushing an identity onto that person that they don't want. That's exactly what calling characters that are not trans as trans characters is doing. It works both ways, it isn't only trans people/non-cis people that can feel invalidated or have an incorrect identity pushed onto them

reinayeen said:
Also way off topic but what are the chances of reevaluating the andromorph and gynomorph tags? I know a lot of artists are understandably put off by those tags and choose to stay off the site. Altermale and Alterfemale could be alternatives. Ive also seen Transfeminine and Transmasculine as options, but i know the argument is that some people might not want to have their characters implied to be trans (lame), even if that's not what those terms mean necessarily.

honestly, I will defend these two tags to the grave. having a word to refer to a character that does not require the creator to commit to saying "this character is trans" while also never needing to use either "cuntboy" or "dickgirl" is kind of invaluable. also, having them, like, obfuscated a bit from commonly used genderd words, using the more clinical-sounding latin "andro" and "gyno" over the more common "man"/"woman", "boy"/"girl", "male"/"female", etc. is also a plus, in my eyes.

another problem with including "trans" in the tagnames for these is that vaginoplasty and phallioplasty exist. saying that a character would only fit under the tag with the word "trans" in it if they've only had top surgery is kind of odd to me.

_{honestly, I'd be more in favour of changing the names of male and female before ever even considering andromorph or gynomorph, and even that would be a crazy hard sell.}

Necroing this because I still think it's a good idea.

I still prefer the term 'altersex' because it's fairly intuitive, but I just learned of another term that's similar in definition- salmacian. Pros are that it's distinctive and able to be shortened. Major con is that it's not common/obvious/intuitive so there would definitely be a "wtf is that tag???" learning curve.

I like the idea of the intersex -> altersex rename. No changes to tag structure or definition at all, just the rename - it solves the issue of intersex having a different real-world meaning than the way we use it here.

Salmacian wouldn't work as a rename for intersex though, sorry. Salmacian is an identity where a person desires or has* a mixed genital set (so what we would tag as herm or maleherm). Would not work for gynomorph/andromorph characters.
*and yes, it is possible to have a mixed genital set in real life! Penis-preserving vaginoplasty or phalloplasty without vaginectomy

+1 for salmacian

There’s also "duosex", which is a salmacian term for when someone has any arrangement of primary or secondary sex characteristics of both sexes. (examples range from women with beards to having both a penis and vagina)

It’s the opposite of "nullsex", someone who lacks any sex characteristics (see: ambiguous_gender null)

I'm for any change from intersex, being one myself. Intersex is a medical term, hermaphrodite and futanari/cuntboy are porn tropes, and I quite dislike my deformity being equated to a porn trope.

I am in the camp of keeping intersex as is but if we are going go forward with a change, the only plausible choice so far is 'altersex' all other suggestions made so far are ether too wordy(ex: nonbinary_sexual_characteristics), have a excessive learning curve(ex:salmacian) or do not resolve the underlying issue of using a term in opposition to its original definition(herm , non-binary, trans*).

I would note specifically in regard to 'duosex' that it does not fit as a replacement for intersex as its definition does not really cover gynomorphs and andromorphs but it could be a possible replacement for herm..

I will say that the only real objection I have to "altersex" is that we already have two genders/sexes that begin in 'a', those being andromorph and ambiguous. That being said, is that really much of a drawback when "altersex" wouldn't and shouldn't even be tagged on its own? Unless I'm forgetting something, it should always be added by implication rather than being manually added according to TWYS since intersex is (as I mentioned earlier) not really a TWYS tag. Just an umbrella.

If you HAD to abbreviate them, just use al or alt for altersex, am for ambiguous, and a for andromorph. Otherwise, I'm all for altersex, if people don't wanna do away with the umbrella tag altogether.

_{If we're gonna start the conversation about replacing 'herm', I still think 'androgyne' would be an acceptable replacement. But I understand it's close to androgynous. Also just invalidate 'futa' already, even if we're keeping the umbrella tag it's too ambiguous. Disambiguation would be better.}

pankino2002 said:
If you HAD to abbreviate them, just use al or alt for altersex, am for ambiguous, and a for andromorph. Otherwise, I'm all for altersex, if people don't wanna do away with the umbrella tag altogether.

honestly, I feel like just ? for is fine for ambiguous, it's the least, well, ambiguous of the traditional letter shortenings (maybe used alongside ag for Ambiguous_Gender, although that still feels weird to me).

am has the problem of being the first letter of both the prefix and suffix half of AndroMorph and is also already used as such in stuff like am/p/am.

Unsure for "?" as shortening because we should probably stick to alphanumerical for tags when we can. Basing myself on the Pokémon -> Pokemon alias.

Maybe we could find a new letter or even name for ambiguous. I’d go with "u", for ambigUous, Unknown, Unclear.

dba_afish said:
honestly, I feel like just ? for is fine for ambiguous, it's the least, well, ambiguous of the traditional letter shortenings (maybe used alongside ag for Ambiguous_Gender, although that still feels weird to me).

am has the problem of being the first letter of both the prefix and suffix half of AndroMorph and is also already used as such in stuff like am/p/am.

That's a good point, I'd probably support replacing am with ?. We could also take a page out of other boorus' playbook and use o for "other" when it comes to shortenings, or maybe "othersex"...? Nah, I don't really like the sound of that.

dimoretpinel said:
Unsure for "?" as shortening because we should probably stick to alphanumerical for tags when we can. Basing myself on the Pokémon -> Pokemon alias.

Maybe we could find a new letter or even name for ambiguous. I’d go with "u", for ambigUous, Unknown, Unclear.

we've already been using been using ? as a shortening for ambiguous for just over 9 years already, though. and when used in the contexts it's used in, which is always alongside other genders, it's pretty clear what it means. it's more representational than the rest but I feel like it's pretty easy to understand why it's used.

using u seems odd since, in the context of ambiguous itself it's kind of just a random letter from the middle of the word.

pankino2002 said:
That's a good point, I'd probably support replacing am with ?. We could also take a page out of other boorus' playbook and use o for "other" when it comes to shortenings, or maybe "othersex"...? Nah, I don't really like the sound of that.

"other" is a bit ambiguous in its meaning. it, like androgyne, could include both characters with mixed primary and secondary sexual characteristics (intersex) as well as characters who lack any clear/distinct gender pointers (ambiguous). it also has the problem of placing characters into a gender category literally labled "other" which seems, like-- for lack of a better word, kind of othering.

Thing is, if you want this to gain traction, you need a single-paragraph "Explain it to me like I'm 5." definition of the differences. Otherwise, many people won't get it, or when they do, they will be obsolete terms.

dimoretpinel said:
There’s also "duosex", which is a salmacian term for when someone has any arrangement of primary or secondary sex characteristics of both sexes. (examples range from women with beards to having both a penis and vagina)

Duosex sounds too close to newhalf?

lenkagetsu said:
I'm for any change from intersex, being one myself. Intersex is a medical term, hermaphrodite and futanari/cuntboy are porn tropes, and I quite dislike my deformity being equated to a porn trope.

Greeks probably want to have a word about that name... Nothing like the other two slang terms invented purely for porn.
It feels like by definition, if a word becomes commonly used, the porn industry will start using it, but there's a reason that cuntboy and dickgirl tags got aliased away.

alphamule said:
Thing is, if you want this to gain traction, you need a single-paragraph "Explain it to me like I'm 5." definition of the differences. Otherwise, many people won't get it, or when they do, they will be obsolete terms.

'Intersex' is a real-world medical term. The real-world definition does not match the way it is used here. This creates opportunities for misunderstanding both the real-world medical term and the tag. The real-world definition can not be tagged 'intersex' under tag-what-you-see. People who are affected by real-world intersex conditions have also expressed dissatisfaction with use of the term 'intersex' as a porn term.

regsmutt said:
'Intersex' is a real-world medical term. The real-world definition does not match the way it is used here. This creates opportunities for misunderstanding both the real-world medical term and the tag. The real-world definition can not be tagged 'intersex' under tag-what-you-see. People who are affected by real-world intersex conditions have also expressed dissatisfaction with use of the term 'intersex' as a porn term.

That's better. :)

Hmm, I wonder how to word description accurately without plagiarizing Wikipedia or some medical site of the medical definition.

The arguments here to me seem to be from people who are either very misinformed, or are intentionally making false statements. This is not confusing, and I don't understand why anyone here thinks it is confusing. This is the second thread I've seen making a similar claim about this, and both times the OPs claims appear to have been taken at face value without any scrutiny, which is concerning to me, as the changes suggested would be massive, and affect hundreds of thousands of posts.

I will once again re-iterate why the word 'Intersex' is not only the most appropriate, but is also the most correct word to use.

Inter- came into English from Latin (from inter, meaning "among, between”)

1. Just by reading the word, anyone proficient in English will instantly know what it means. It literally means "between sex" which is exactly what the tag describes: characters who are depicted as somewhere in between the sexes. Nobody sees the intersex tag and thinks "I know the social definition, we can't prove the character was born as depicted!". What actually happens is people see a character who has a combination of male and female traits and think "Oh, their physical traits are between male and female. That's intersex."

2. The biological definition is the one we're using, not the social definition: [https://www.britannica.com/science/intersex] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex_(biology)]. (Note that britannica explicitly states that gynandromorph is intersex.) So even if #1 was false, we are still well within TWYS.

3. Intersex is also an extremely important tag, both from a searchability and a blacklisting perspective. Saying it isn't useful is just flat out wrong. I use the intersex tag all of the time when searching, and I use it in my blacklist (intersex -gynomorph). Sometimes people know a character is intersex, but don't know how else to tag it (I've been guilty of this). So they tag intersex. This makes it easy for any posts missing a corresponding tag to be added, as the posts in question can be found by searching "intersex -andromorph -gynomorph -herm -maleherm".

Yeahhhh I don't understand why a new name for the tag can't be thought of when actual intersex people have a lot of disdain for it's usage. I know way too many people who think intersex is "haha lady with penis" just because the tag gave them that impression. I truthfully don't understand why it would be a big deal to listen to actually intersex people in regards to how the term intersex is used and depicted... LOL.... like they are happy to think of an alternative term for you. Quiet strange to me how people are happy to listen to trans individuals when it comes to things like this but never intersex folks.
If anything I'd say, as even people gain more awareness on intersex issues, the insistence on a change is only going to increase. So it's kind of just resisting the inevitable. I definitely prefer terms like "altersex" or "bigenital" or literally anything else really.

alphamule said:
That's better. :)

Hmm, I wonder how to word description accurately without plagiarizing Wikipedia or some medical site of the medical definition.

Just going off the top of my head, something like
'Intersex' is a term that refers to real-world conditions that present as an atypical mixture of sexual characteristics. The presentation can be as dramatic as a bilateral gynandromorph or as subtle as a chromosomal abnormality invisible without genetic testing.

kyiiel said:
2. The biological definition is the one we're using, not the social definition: [https://www.britannica.com/science/intersex] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex_(biology)]. (Note that britannica explicitly states that gynandromorph is intersex.) So even if #1 was false, we are still well within TWYS.

We very much are NOT using the biological definition. There is no way to apply 'tag what you see' to the majority of intersex conditions. You can't test a drawing's chromosomes or hormones. You probably aren’t going to get to see if a character secretly has undescended testis alongside their ovaries.
A fairly common intersex presentation is a female body with facial hair and an enlarged clitoris. This is not tagged intersex on here, and shouldn't be because a character can have these traits without being intersex.
Male characters shown getting pregnant would imply they have functional ovaries. These situations are also not tagged intersex because the tag is based only on genitals and not on internal organs because it is not based on a biological definition, it's based on aesthetics.

I feel like it's my duty to respond to this as the first person in this topic to bring up definitions. I don't like what's been said here.

kyiiel said:
The arguments here to me seem to be from people who are either very misinformed, or are intentionally making false statements.

I don't know why you need to begin your post arguing against a potential change by accusing everyone ITT of being misinformed or lying. Why start out so hostile? You can make a counterargument without being disrespectful towards everyone else and assuming we're operating in bad faith.

kyiiel said:
This is not confusing, and I don't understand why anyone here thinks it is confusing. This is the second thread I've seen making a similar claim about this, and both times the OPs claims appear to have been taken at face value without any scrutiny, which is concerning to me, as the changes suggested would be massive, and affect hundreds of thousands of posts.

Inter- came into English from Latin (from inter, meaning "among, between”)

1. Just by reading the word, anyone proficient in English will instantly know what it means. It literally means "between sex" which is exactly what the tag describes: characters who are depicted as somewhere in between the sexes. Nobody sees the intersex tag and thinks "I know the social definition, we can't prove the character was born as depicted!". What actually happens is people see a character who has a combination of male and female traits and think "Oh, their physical traits are between male and female. That's intersex."

I don't think it's been said here by anyone but OP that the current usage of the term 'intersex' on this site is confusing for anyone. It very clearly refers to characters that exhibit a combination of male and female sexual characteristics, and we even have a flowchart to make it easier to determine how each individual combination is tagged: howto:tag genders You'll notice that "intersex" isn't a part of this flowchart because it isn't meant to be tagged on its own! If you're following this and tagging correctly, it will always be added by implication. Ignorance isn't an excuse, you can just look up intersex, click the question mark next to the tag to go to the tag wiki, and find the flowchart from there.

The core issue with using 'intersex' in this manner isn't that it's confusing, it's that it's incorrect. A conclusion can be totally and utterly logically sound but if it's based on false premises then it doesn't matter that the logic follows internally, there's something outside that we haven't considered, and that is the definition of the word 'intersex', both its medical definition and how the term is applied in real life, outside of porn communities.

kyiiel said:
2. The biological definition is the one we're using, not the social definition: [https://www.britannica.com/science/intersex] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex_(biology)]. (Note that britannica explicitly states that gynandromorph is intersex.) So even if #1 was false, we are still well within TWYS.

This seems to be your central point here and the unfortunate part is that it's completely bogus. You either didn't read the first paragraph of the links you posted, or you don't know the definitions of some words. Let me spell it out for you.

Encyclopedia Brittanica:
Intersex, in biology, an organism having physical characteristics intermediate between a true male and a true female of its species. The condition usually results from extra chromosomes or a hormonal abnormality during embryological development.

Embryological development, or put more succinctly, in the womb. In utero. Before birth. Born that way.

kyiiel said:
(Note that britannica explicitly states that gynandromorph is intersex.)

Hmm, what is a "gynandromorph"? I've never heard that term before. Let's ask Brittanica:

Encyclopedia Brittanica:
In sex: Abnormal chromosome effects
…are known as gynandromorphs, or sexual mosaics, and result from aberration in the distribution of the X chromosomes among the first cells to be formed during the early development of the embryo.

Once again, as a result of something that took place during embryological development. In utero. Before birth. Born that way.

Wikipedia's article on Intersex_(biology):)
Intersex is a general term for an organism that has sex characteristics that are between male and female.

This would seem to support your claim that the "biological definition" of Intersex is the one that is used here, but this sentence on its own is missing something important, that being an explanation for WHY intersex traits occur in species. The reason this first sentence is so vague and general seems to be because among the many species on earth that aren't hermaphroditic or asexual, we can't be quite certain what causes intersex traits to manifest in all of them. The next paragraph states "Intersexuality can occur due to both genetic and environmental factors" but it simply leaves it at that. This article is much briefer than the Wikipedia article on just ''Intersex'' and I would assume it's because biology is a very broad field--"Intersex" isn't a very precise term used in a biological sense because how it manifests and how it expresses in an environment can vary from species to species. In most, however, "the cause of this phenomenon is typically (but not always) an event in mitosis during early (embryonic) development." That's from the Wikipedia article on Gynandromorphism which is linked in the Intersex_(biology) article.

That aside, I would argue we're much more interested in the social definition of "intersex" which aligns with the "biological definition" of intersex as it's found in humans. You can find the social and human definition on a simple google search of "Intersex", or you can read the first paragraph of the other Wikipedia article on "Intersex":

Wikipedia's article on Intersex
Intersex people are individuals born with any of several sex characteristics including chromosome patterns, gonads, or genitals that, according to the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, "do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies".

Again there's that word "born," that seems to show up a lot when we narrow our scope to Intersexuality in humans, which is what the vast majority of the posts on this site are based on, human traits, anthropomorphic characters.

This isn't an animal biology site, it's a furry art (mostly furry porn) site. We're interested in tagging things accurately, but more importantly, tagging things according to how our users want them to be tagged. We could have continued using terms like "cuntboy" and "dickgirl" because those are neatly defined and unambiguous, but we chose to replace them with brand new terms that seemed ambiguous at first because the previous terms seemed to upset a lot of people, and the administration considered it more upsetting to keep them than to replace them. Of course there was a lot of disagreement after the change was announced, but more than 5 years later, no one is clamoring for us to return to that system. Why would we? Just because those terms are "more well known?" Are you going to use the word "ebonics" instead of "AAVE" in front of a black person just because it's more well known?

Social definitions can change over time, as can the appropriateness of certain words. I'm not saying the word "intersex" is inappropriate, but when the word is used to mean "andromorph, gynomorph, herm or maleherm" it feels a little inappropriate. Why do we need THIS specific word to cover the meaning "andromorph, gynomorph, herm or maleherm" when a made-up term that doesn't misappropriate the word used for an entire category of millions of humans would suffice just as well? Is there any reason except "it's more convenient and I know this term better?"

kyiiel said:
3. Intersex is also an extremely important tag, both from a searchability and a blacklisting perspective. Saying it isn't useful is just flat out wrong. I use the intersex tag all of the time when searching, and I use it in my blacklist (intersex -gynomorph).

This one's easy. You can continue using "intersex" in your searches and your blacklist after it's aliased. That's how aliases work. You can even search cuntboy instead of andromorph and add it to your blacklist if you really want, still. Changing intersex is all about how it appears on the site and what exact terminology we use when defining other tags, we (probably) aren't going to invalidate intersex because it would be too much headache to maintain and it would probably cause a lot of backlash from people who prefer convenience. We just want to alias it away to something more appropriate for an umbrella term of "andromorph, gynomorph, herm or maleherm."

kyiiel said:
Sometimes people know a character is intersex, but don't know how else to tag it (I've been guilty of this). So they tag intersex. This makes it easy for any posts missing a corresponding tag to be added, as the posts in question can be found by searching "intersex -andromorph -gynomorph -herm -maleherm".

This is just mistagging. The wiki for intersex even says it:

• This tag is applied automatically by implication. Please avoid manual tagging, and instead use one of the 4 intersex sub-types listed below.

It then tells you to tag either andromorph, gynomorph, herm or maleherm, don't tag this on its own. We understand that not everyone is going to get this memo, which is a good reason not to invalidate it entirely, but it's also a non-sequitur when it comes to people who don't know what to tag. They'll still be able to type "futa" or "intersex" if they really want, and it's still going to be a headache for us who watch intersex -andromorph -gynomorph -herm -maleherm grow and grow every year, _{(although it seems to be smaller than when I last checked, perhaps due to being mentioned in this topic, way to go taggers, especially you, dba afish!)} but it'll alias to "altersex" (or whatever we decide on) instead of "intersex". That's it.

The definitions I found are usually either in context of development, or call it "DSD" (differences of sex development). It makes sense that medical sites would be thinking of reality of only caring about natural cases. Obviously, not many people in the real world are going to magically wake up on their 40th birthday with huge changes to their anatomy. DSD actually is far more accurate in regards to the real world since you're pretty much born that way.

Tried to find an actual dictionary and found this definition that has some interesting etymology.
Found this short article with citations if someone wants to read further.

I have no damn idea why someone would manually add intersex to a post, but like with after orgasm, there's many examples. Technically, someone needs to tag those better when uploading. I think I did a few tags of after orgasm before reading the Wiki, which is part of the problem. Almost no one read that "not to be used by itself" part. AFAICR, the entire point of this tag was because without it, search exclusions are a royal PITA. Bigenitals is a horrible alternative because it doesn't apply to a good amount of cases the existing tag does.

BTW: I checked, damn my curiosity, and of course porn (video) sites are doing keyword stuffing on newer words. :shrug:

Alter, third, inter, other, extra, mixed, and so on seem to have that same issue of becoming well-known, then used in other ways as the words percolate through culture. Non-binary is an identity term and doesn't really make sense to apply here.

alphamule said:
Alter, third, inter, other, extra, mixed, and so on seem to have that same issue of becoming well-known, then used in other ways as the words percolate through culture.

I'd say, from a tag readability standpoint, if we changed it, "mix-" or "mixed-" would almost certainly be the best option. unfortunately it also starts with M which is slightly unfortunate... but it'd be liveable.

there is a problem which I have noticed with intersex I have noticed the tag being applied relatively often to just male/female posts, so I think there are a few people who read it and think it has a similar definition to something like interspecies.

"alter-" has problem of sounding like it's supposed to be applied to transexual characters exclusively. since "alter" usually means "to change".

"extra-" feels a little weird since it usually means "above" or "outside of" so something like extragender would mean "outside of gender" which... I guess kinda makes sense, but it still feels off to me.

"third-", using numbering like this feels odd, maybe it's just because in my mind I've always put this gender category in the fourth slot after ambiguous.

I've already voiced my problem with "other-".

dba_afish said:
"alter-" has problem of sounding like it's supposed to be applied to transexual characters exclusively. since "alter" usually means "to change".

Huh, I thought it was supposed to be short for "alternative sex". Maybe "altsex" would be better? Doesn't roll off the tongue as well, but "alt-" is usually used as shorthand for "alternative".

... I mean, we could use Parasexual, I guess.

Possibly just me but the "para" of "parasexual" reminds me too much of "paralympics"

votp said:
... I mean, we could use Parasexual, I guess.

"para-" has like-- a _lot_ of definitions and I'm not sure any of them fully jive with the tag's definition.

--
thinking about it, something in the vein of "extra-" or "exter-" might be our best path. its definition being essentially "outside of normal bounds" is kind of closest to how we define our gender categories (or at least how I conceptualize our gender categories). it dosn't seem like it'd have the problem of kinda being applicable to ambiguous characters like some of the other suggestions have.

also, it has the added bonus of having an intial letter that's currently unclaimed.

pankino2002 said:
Embryological development, or put more succinctly, in the womb. In utero. Before birth. Born that way.

This honestly sounds like it's splitting hairs. You can say the same for male, being a person who was born with X chromosomes, yet it's still applied to characters despite not being able to see their chromosomal makeup. We look at a character's physical appearance and tag based on that, even if we know it's a result of a transformation or through physical alterations, we don't worry about chromosomes, embryological development, or birth sex, we tag sex as we see it now. Intersex falls plainly in line here, if someone has a mix of male and female characteristics they are intersex, just as a character that has primarily male characteristics is male.

pankino2002 said:
Once again, as a result of something that took place during embryological development. In utero. Before birth. Born that way.

That goes for every sex, because that's how real-world biology works. But we're dealing with fictional drawings here, the standard rules don't apply so we tag as closely as we can based on visual appearance.

I'm not against changing intersex if it's problematic and there's a more appropriate term, but I've yet to see one. altersex comes across as "alternate sex", something different to or outside of the common male/female dichotomy, which is not what the current use of intersex refers to (that being a mix of male and female traits). altsex having the same problem. duosex comes across as meaning herm, having both a penis and a pussy, and not applicable to andromorph (which is just a pussy and no penis or breasts, on a masculine-looking character, which flat-chested females teeter on the line of) or gynomorph (which is a penis with breasts and no pussy, which overweight or muscular males teeter on the line of).

dba_afish said:
"para-" has like-- a _lot_ of definitions and I'm not sure any of them fully jive with the tag's definition.

--
thinking about it, something in the vein of "extra-" or "exter-" might be our best path. its definition being essentially "outside of normal bounds" is kind of closest to how we define our gender categories (or at least how I conceptualize our gender categories). it dosn't seem like it'd have the problem of kinda being applicable to ambiguous characters like some of the other suggestions have.

also, it has the added bonus of having an intial letter that's currently unclaimed.

Oh, I forgot meta and para and super and cross! Actually, there's a small army of modifiers in English.

@watsit
I was just assuming that the "birth" part was irrelevant much like someone who transitioned MTF is female, not male anymore. Same with tagging where TWYS implies we can only consider that one post. Interestingly, there are species that can change sex after gestation, and it's not just invertebrates.

Yeah, andromorph and gynomorph are descriptive of the visual definition of the tag so make some sense.
I was actually thinking about how you'd represent masculine and feminine features with vaginas and penises, respectively, recently. I figured some sites might do something like that where they have feminine hips/breasts/etc. instead of female/gynomorph/herm. It feels arbitrary which choice is made for tagging standard, other than searchability (tag explosions).
Null versus nullo is another related issue.
Herm and maleherm tags are shorthand for "developed breasts with penis and vagina" and "non-developed breasts with penis and vagina" so not sure how you'd make those simpler to state. XD