donovan_dmc said:
It was 6 before March 2020, and 4 some decade before that

2020 was the major overhaul with the blacklist bug (JS on/off depending on revision would force blacklisted posts visible/invisible)?

m3g4p0n1 said:
I think simply adding "young_* -rating:s" should suffice though

The young tag literally still exists and catches all underage characters of all body types. I'm not sure what that person was whining about.

alphamule said:
2020 was the major overhaul with the blacklist bug (JS on/off depending on revision would force blacklisted posts visible/invisible)?

March 2020 was when the major overhaul of the site happened

When you go through a page of posts, making sure to carefully edit the slow way the exceptions, finish clicking the obvious ones from thumbnails, then realized you just tagged a bunch of young_male posts young_female. *cries* Well, OK, I went through my history and manually fixed every one of them. Sigh, now I'm going to take a break then start over.

I wish I had noticed that _before_ refreshing the page. At least I didn't have to revert them all. Sorry if this caused problems. One stupid typo caused an hour's work. I was going to double-check solo posts for stuff like this, anyways, meh.

I will miss just typing three letters but it's for the better...

notknow said:
I will miss just typing three letters but it's for the better...

Well, with the way aliases work, you can still effectively use cub the same way as young. Typing cub in the search results will return young posts, and adding it to a post will apply young instead.

scaliespe said:
Well, with the way aliases work, you can still effectively use cub the same way as young. Typing cub in the search results will return young posts, and adding it to a post will apply young instead.

I think it's more that, it was the short hand for young_anthro/young_feral. Those 2 tags are pretty lengthy, and i always hated typing underscores... But hey, it's for the better

benjiboyo said:
I think it's more that, it was the short hand for young_anthro/young_feral. Those 2 tags are pretty lengthy, and i always hated typing underscores... But hey, it's for the better

I kinda think we should have more shortcut aliases for common, important tags. although we'd probably need to create a common standard, because the shortcuts we currently have are inconsistent.

sipothac said:
I kinda think we should have more shortcut aliases for common, important tags. although we'd probably need to create a common standard, because the shortcuts we currently have are inconsistent.

Ideally if there were a standard it would be made known to the userbase. There are inconsistencies in how tags are named. There are some trends, but it's unclear why exceptions are exceptions.

arkham_horror said:
Ideally if there were a standard it would be made known to the userbase. There are inconsistencies in how tags are named. There are some trends, but it's unclear why exceptions are exceptions.

for the shortcut aliases, at least the inconsistencies are from different staff members and them being created with little or no community consultation. like, the original pairing shorthand tags (x/y) used f=female, while the "penetrating" shorthand tags made by Millcore (x/p/y) use fm=female because f=feral for some reason (also forgot to include ?=ambiguous).

the thing is-- I don't even know where we should even start with this. because I don't even know how many people already used to them the way they are, and it's also just a massive amount of tags to deal with.

sipothac said:
I kinda think we should have more shortcut aliases for common, important tags. although we'd probably need to create a common standard, because the shortcuts we currently have are inconsistent.

I recall you can set up custom aliases on re621, that should serve this purpose quite well.

m3g4p0n1 said:
I recall you can set up custom aliases on re621, that should serve this purpose quite well.

tinyalias on the old eSEx used to be really fast and responsive it essentially autocorrected what you typed into a proper tag or a whole set of tags as soon as you hit the space bar I never really got used to its implementation in re621.

also, just like, it's be better if we had a solution that works for all users rather than just the ones with re62.

m3g4p0n1 said:
I recall you can set up custom aliases on re621, that should serve this purpose quite well.

Makes more sense, anyways. Those shortcuts are really for people that have been typing them that way for years. They don't do noobs much good.
Like: y_f and y_a for young_feral and young_anthro for example might be useful to me, but I use tag scripts and quick tags, anyways.

sipothac said:
tinyalias on the old eSEx used to be really fast and responsive it essentially autocorrected what you typed into a proper tag or a whole set of tags as soon as you hit the space bar I never really got used to its implementation in re621.

also, just like, it's be better if we had a solution that works for all users rather than just the ones with re62.

I guess. Seems a lot of the short-tags are hard to track usage of. Do we keep any statistics on alias usage on edits? For the 2-letter aliases, it's maybe more sensible not to use them for everyone, though?

Does it allow overloading an alias? Like, if I want to replace an alias entirely, like say, cub -> young_feral and it not even try to send cub to the server?

alphamule said:
Makes more sense, anyways. Those shortcuts are really for people that have been typing them that way for years. They don't do noobs much good.

Plus short tag aliases can make it easier to cause mistags (e.g. lav for looking_at_viewer, when it could mean lavatory or be a typo for lab), or be ambiguous (the various other three-letter initials that can mean multiple things), so they're not always a good to have as actual tag aliases.

watsit said:
Plus short tag aliases can make it easier to cause mistags (e.g. lav for looking_at_viewer, when it could mean lavatory or be a typo for lab), or be ambiguous (the various other three-letter initials that can mean multiple things), so they're not always a good to have as actual tag aliases.

Mentioning: GDI Mozilla, why is right-clicking moving the text cursor? This makes editing a text box a PITA, now.

And why does Google think cursor and pointer are the same thing? LOL OK, not entirely Google's code doing that - people actually make that mistake.

watsit said:
Plus short tag aliases can make it easier to cause mistags (e.g. lav for looking_at_viewer, when it could mean lavatory or be a typo for lab), or be ambiguous (the various other three-letter initials that can mean multiple things), so they're not always a good to have as actual tag aliases.

either way, it'd be better to have the ones we do have be consistent rather than have f = female in most contexts but for some reason have f = feral in a few others. like, currently f/a and f/p/a are two entirely unrelated things.

BUR #5342 This is relevant? All the young_<gender> aliases. I guess these go together, now?

donovan_dmc said:
Changing that is really out of the scope of this, and trying to patch that in here would make this take literally years, assuming it won't already

I agree with the reasoning and ideas behind this change, but frankly, this should have been a multi-year project. We should have slowly transitioned things. We should've taken the time to go through the cub tags and add the appropriate baby/toddler/child tags to them, and added teenager where needed for the young tags.

The 'young' tag has always been a sort of ambiguous, border-line tag for images where a character is obviously not a child, but could still pass as underage (i.e. twinks/teenager). Meanwhile, the cub tag was typically reserved for very young–looking characters (i.e. babies/toddlers/preteens).

Now that we've abruptly crammed all the cub tags into this one, it's become nearly impossible to untangle them, transforming a two-year project into an eternal and monumental undertaking. A lot of people's blacklists and searches are going to be broken because of this.

no1care said:
The 'young' tag has always been a sort of ambiguous, border-line tag for images where a character is obviously not a child, but could still pass as underage (i.e. twinks/teenager).

I'm not sure what you really mean by this. Young covers all age ranges, and that isn't really ambiguous. If a character is underage can be ambiguous, but the definition of the young tag is not.

no1care said:
Meanwhile, the cub tag was typically reserved for very young–looking characters (i.e. babies/toddlers/preteens).

This is the exact reason the tag was done away with. That was not its definition. It applied to all ages. It's had this definition for over a decade. People blacklisting or searching the tag for that were using it wrong.
Plus, any blacklist entries concerning cub are just going to move to young, covering more content, not really breaking any blacklists.

The primary tagging project that spawned from cub was the young_<bodtype> tags, since cub only applied to anthro & feral characters. That was an agreed upon distinction, and a project was made out of it. The alias was postphoned until that was completed.

Plus, if you're hellbent on making a project out of tagging the ages of cub characters, https://e621.net/post_sets/54530 exists.

donovan_dmc said:
I'm not sure what you really mean by this. Young covers all age ranges, and that isn't really ambiguous. If a character is underage can be ambiguous, but the definition of the young tag is not.

By 'young' I mean young -cub.

donovan_dmc said:
This is the exact reason the tag was done away with. That was not its definition. It applied to all ages. It's had this definition for over a decade. People blacklisting or searching the tag for that were using it wrong.
Plus, any blacklist entries concerning cub are just going to move to young, covering more content, not really breaking any blacklists.

Yet even those wiki pages acknowledge that "most cubs are quite young (4-10, in human years)", and that's what the majority of users seemed to go by. People blacklisting 'cub' instead of 'young' do so because many posts tagged as just 'young' are merely borderline characters, like twinks. This change most definitely does break their blacklist. Now they're forced to choose between seeing very young characters or not seeing half of the twink or similar content out there.

I know that the previous tags were a mess and that there definitely was some bleedthrough in both directions, but it was still the most reliable way to filter out just the very obvious child content. Now there's no practical way of doing that, at least not until the proper age-group tags are applied to every single cub image.

donovan_dmc said:
Plus, if you're hellbent on making a project out of tagging the ages of cub characters, https://e621.net/post_sets/54530 exists.

This could probably do with some info so people can tell what it's supposed to be. Is it just a collection of every post that was tagged as 'cub'? Is there any way to use this to find posts that used to match young -cub before the merge? Either way, it better than nothing. Thanks for making it.

no1care said:
By 'young' I mean young -cub.

Posts without young were just people fighting to not apply a tag that absolutely applied. There were multiple differing definitions between people, and no one could agree upon its usage. young -cub should have had barely any posts, but artists and users alike fought to not apply the tag when it absolutely applied. Artists have some kind of stigma over it, users don't bother reading the wiki page and assume its usage.

no1care said:
Yet even those wiki pages acknowledge that "most cubs are quite young (4-10, in human years)", and that's what the majority of users seemed to go by.

And yet, if you read further:

the phrase cub can refer to all physically immature and legally underage characters, ranging from infants to underaged teenagers.

To reiterate, people not fully reading wikis isn't really our fault. We aren't keeping around a tag no one can agree on just because some people can't read a wiki page, and use it incorrectly.

no1care said:
This could probably do with some info so people can tell what it's supposed to be. Is it just a collection of every post that was tagged as 'cub'? Is there any way to use this to find posts that used to match young -cub before the merge? Either way, it better than nothing. Thanks for making it.

Yes, it's the contents of the cub tag before it was aliased. set:cub_apocalypse can be used as a direct replacement for cub in tagging projects, so young -set:cub_apocalypse should approximate that.

donovan_dmc said:

To reiterate, people not fully reading wikis isn't really our problem.

you mean, fault? i feel like people mistagging due to illiteracy of the wikis IS a problem, and for us right?

no1care said:
Yet even those wiki pages acknowledge that "most cubs are quite young (4-10, in human years)"

yeah, let's just ignore the rest of that sentence, there's no way the full thing explicitly contradicts what you're saying.
what'd it say again? oh yeah, it was:

cub wiki (2010-12-18; former staff SnowWolf) said:
While most cubs are quite young (4-10, in human years), the phrase cub can refer to all physically immature and legally underage characters, ranging from infants to underaged teenagers.

hmm...

donovan_dmc said:
Yes, it's the contents of the cub tag before it was aliased. set:cub_apocalypse can be used as a direct replacement for cub in tagging projects, so young -set:cub_apocalypse should approximate that.

That's good to know, thanks.

sipothac said:
yeah, let's just ignore the rest of that sentence, there's no way the full thing explicitly contradicts what you're saying.
what'd it say again? oh yeah, it was:

hmm...

Yes, we can all click the link and read the full excerpt.

That does nothing to change the fact that it explicitly acknowledges that most (i.e. the majority) of 'cub' characters are considered to be very young, rather than just under 18. Saying that it can refer to the latter is very weak language that doesn't at all imply that it should, which gives the impression that it's up to interpretation on a case-to-case basis, somewhat similar to how the semi-anthro tag works (i.e. slapping that onto ambiguous body types and then using best judgement to pick the companion tag of anthro or feral depending on which side it leans closest to).

no1care said:
That does nothing to change the fact that it explicitly acknowledges that most (i.e. the majority) of 'cub' characters are considered to be very young, rather than just under 18. Saying that it can refer to the latter is very weak language that doesn't at all imply that it should, which gives the impression that it's up to interpretation on a case-to-case basis, somewhat similar to how the semi-anthro tag works (i.e. slapping that onto ambiguous body types and then using best judgement to pick the companion tag of anthro or feral depending on which side it leans closest to).

that's, like, a really weird way to read that sentence. tags don't ever work like that, a tag is either applicable or it isn't. the lines when one tag starts and another ends can be difficult to determine in some cases, but that does not mean that they're up to interpretation.

the wiki was saying "hey, I know that most of the cub art you see is going to be children (4-10), but the tag also applies to characters of any young age group, which ranges from characters as young as babies to as old as teenagers."

sipothac said:
that's, like, a really weird way to read that sentence. tags don't ever work like that, a tag is either applicable or it isn't. the lines when one tag starts and another ends can be difficult to determine in some cases, but that does not mean that they're up to interpretation.

the wiki was saying "hey, I know that most of the cub art you see is going to be children (4-10), but the tag also applies to characters of any young age group, which ranges from characters as young as babies to as old as teenagers."

Well, case in point, I ain't volunteering for the teenageadolescent_feral project. I mean... god, no.

Hmm, I wonder how many pages are left to tag young_<gender> on. *goes to previous page for list of search terms to start with*

:edit: Put here for convenience, ones I'm going through.
set:cub_apocalypse -young_anthro -young_feral -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur solo male -young_male anthro -female -intersex Yeah, not every one of these was actually young male. Done
set:cub_apocalypse -young_anthro -young_feral -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur solo female -young_female anthro -male -intersex
set:cub_apocalypse -young_anthro -young_feral -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur solo herm -young_herm anthro -male -andromorph -gynomorph -female -maleherm
set:cub_apocalypse -young_anthro -young_feral -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur solo maleherm -young_maleherm anthro -male -andromorph -gynomorph -herm -female
set:cub_apocalypse -young_anthro -young_feral -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur solo andromorph -young_andromorph anthro -male -female -gynomorph -herm -maleherm -young_maleherm anthro -male -andromorph -gynomorph -herm -female
set:cub_apocalypse -young_anthro -young_feral -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur solo gynomorph -young_gynomorph anthro -male -female -andromorph -herm -maleherm

set:cub_apocalypse -young_anthro -young_feral -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur solo male -young_male feral -female -intersex
set:cub_apocalypse -young_anthro -young_feral -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur solo female -young_female feral -male -intersex
set:cub_apocalypse -young_anthro -young_feral -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur solo herm -young_herm feral -male -andromorph -gynomorph -female -maleherm
set:cub_apocalypse -young_anthro -young_feral -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur solo maleherm -young_maleherm feral -male -andromorph -gynomorph -herm -female
set:cub_apocalypse -young_anthro -young_feral -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur solo andromorph -young_andromorph feral -male -female -gynomorph -herm -maleherm -young_maleherm feral -male -andromorph -gynomorph -herm -female
set:cub_apocalypse -young_anthro -young_feral -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur solo gynomorph -young_gynomorph feral -male -female -andromorph -herm -maleherm

All of the above seem to be mostly done. Need to do young_ambiguous, next.

post #4319317 Not sure what to do, here.
post #2947316 is feral or anthro? I think feral. Tags on it are all over the place. Masturbation but questionable? :facepalm:
post #3545166 I'm not sure of the name for that style of censorship. Putting shapes or objects not from the scene in the way? Masking?
post #365175 Both feral and anthro features?
post #3816443 Confused on the tags, here.

set:cub_apocalypse solo ambiguous_gender -young_ambiguous -young_feral -anthro -male -female -intersex

donovan_dmc said:
Posts without young were just people fighting to not apply a tag that absolutely applied. There were multiple differing definitions between people, and no one could agree upon its usage. young -cub should have had barely any posts, but artists and users alike fought to not apply the tag when it absolutely applied. Artists have some kind of stigma over it, users don't bother reading the wiki page and assume its usage.

And yet, if you read further:
To reiterate, people not fully reading wikis isn't really our fault. We aren't keeping around a tag no one can agree on just because some people can't read a wiki page, and use it incorrectly.

Yes, it's the contents of the cub tag before it was aliased. set:cub_apocalypse can be used as a direct replacement for cub in tagging projects, so young -set:cub_apocalypse should approximate that.

Hey donovan, I'm curious on this -- I know you've mentioned no one seems to be able to agree but aliasing young and cub together but this does seem to cause an issue.
There are images on here with explicit mention that the characters are 18-24 that still get a "young" tag.
It seems like a weird approach to just go "screw it if they don't look 30 then they're children."
Not saying that was necessarily the intent but it does seem to be the result.

lei_raion said:
Hey donovan, I'm curious on this -- I know you've mentioned no one seems to be able to agree but aliasing young and cub together but this does seem to cause an issue.
There are images on here with explicit mention that the characters are 18-24 that still get a "young" tag.
It seems like a weird approach to just go "screw it if they don't look 30 then they're children."
Not saying that was necessarily the intent but it does seem to be the result.

It does not terribly matter if it's a 9000 year old dragon goddess that just happens to look like a 12 year old.
If the character looks young, then they get tagged as such. Text in the image is not used for tagging either.
Same as with pretty much any other general category tag: https://e621.net/help/twys

You can use adult_(lore) to indicate that character is stated to be an adult if you wish.

cinder said:
It does not terribly matter if it's a 9000 year old dragon goddess that just happens to look like a 12 year old.
If the character looks young, then they get tagged as such. Text in the image is not used for tagging either.
Same as with pretty much any other general category tag: https://e621.net/help/twys

You can use adult_(lore) to indicate that character is stated to be an adult if you wish.

https://e621.net/posts/1062782
vs
https://e621.net/posts/2282505

These are blatantly not the same. However, as far as the tagging goes NOW, they are. This is more what I mean

https://e621.net/posts/3857072
This character is literally in college, but is still a cub I guess?
you get my meaning right?

--
I think the main thing that causes confusion in the furry world on this topic is not necessarily the "character is actually 9000 years old even though they clearly appear as a 5 year old"
It's more the different species being displayed as different sizes.
A mouse is never going to be portrayed as the same size as a horse. If both characters are 24 the mouse will probably look like a teenager.

Arguably, nearly every single eevee, vulpera, fennec, etc could be viewed as "young" but that tag literally means they are children now.

lei_raion said:
https://e621.net/posts/1062782
vs
https://e621.net/posts/2282505

These are blatantly not the same. However, as far as the tagging goes NOW, they are.

let's just ignore the fact that post #1062782 is tagged teenager and the other is not.

sipothac said:
let's just ignore the fact that post #1062782 is tagged teenager and the other is not.

It's also tagged "young" and always has been.
That's the whole point I'm making. Banging a 4 year old, 10 year old, 18 year old, 19 year old, or a character that is in their 20s and appears to be a teenager
probably shouldn't all be under the same tag.

lei_raion said:
It's also tagged "young" and always has been.
That's the whole point I'm making. Banging a 4 year old, 10 year old, 18 year old, 19 year old, or a character that is in their 20s and appears to be a teenager
probably shouldn't all be under the same tag.

t-they aren't. one is child one is teenager (or soon adolescent). young is so users can filter for _any_ characters who are visibly underaged (<18).

sipothac said:
t-they aren't. one is child one is teenager (or soon adolescent).

They are though. Search these two and see what happens:

ring glowing accessory solo male young

ring glowing accessory solo male cub

you'll get the same result.

sipothac said:
young is so users can filter for _any_ characters who are visibly underaged (<18).

How do I differentiate characters that are 20, 22, or even 24 and appear to be a teenager? "Young" seemed like a reasonable approach.
Young is the same thing as a literal 4 year old now.

lei_raion said:
They are though. Search this and watch what happens:

ring glowing accessory solo male young

That image will come up.

now search this:

ring glowing accessory solo male cub

you'll get the same result.

For starters, cub has now been aliased to young, and searching the same thing will get the same results.

The whole point of the alias is that cub, as intended, is just young + (~anthro ~feral), but people use it as if it were furry child (or younger)

How do I differentiate characters that are 20, 22, or even 24 and appear to be a teenager? "Young" seemed like a reasonable approach.
Young is the same thing as a literal 4 year old now.

Well you'd use teenager presumably. Young has always meant teenager or younger.

lei_raion said:
They are though. Search this and watch what happens:
ring glowing accessory solo male young
That image will come up.

now search this:
ring glowing accessory solo male cub

you'll get the same result.

okay???
cub already applied to all the same age groups as young. the tag's wiki has said as much since 2010. it had always been a tag to denote young characters who are anthro or feral.

just because a post didn't have the tag applied did not mean that tag would not have been applicable.

snpthecat said:
For starters, cub has now been aliased to young, and searching the same thing will get the same results.

The whole point of the alias is that cub, as intended, is just young + (~anthro ~feral), but people use it as if it were furry child (or younger)

I understand that, that's kinda the point. There isn't really a way to differentiate between young looking characters unless they are blatantly adults.
The last year or two on here I've seen young used more on images were the character appears to be somewhere between 16-24. Even if they are stated to be in college or in their 20s.

I'm thinking about times people have thought I was trying to be a sneaky teenager with a fake ID buying alcohol when I was 25.
I mean, it's a scenario that occurs on this site as well as in real life so it feels a little odd to not be able differentiate.

https://e621.net/posts/3002218 --> nothing explicitly stated here, these characters always appeared to be "college age" to me.
https://e621.net/posts/4492205 --> yet the same character here is now child porn. (Not just "young" it's also "cub" now)

sipothac, I get it but that was also kinda the OPs point before --- people don't really read and correctly apply the wiki a lot of the time. They go off of implied meaning (as have I in the past)

lei_raion said:
sipothac, I get it but that was also kinda the OPs point before --- people don't really read and correctly apply the wiki a lot of the time. They go off of implied meaning (as have I in the past)

that sounds like a good reason to have done the tag split and alias; make the tag names more clear, get rid of the old tag that people did not know how to use properly.

cub was a bad tag with a bad tag name with a confusing use case.

sipothac said:
that sounds like a good reason to have done the tag split and alias; make the tag names more clear, get rid of the old tag that people did not know how to use properly.

cub was a bad tag with a bad tag name with a confusing use case.

I don't disagree with that, sure.
I'm sure there are ways to improve the tagging in this regard, I'm certainly not an expert just throwing in my 2 cents as
the problem now is that an image of a guy banging a 6 year old is considered in the same category as a guy with a teenage looking 22 year old.

again, since "young" and "cub" are just 1 thing all these scenarios are equal:

baby x adult
6yr old x adult
~20yr old x adult (could appear teenage so, likely to be marked "young")
~18yr old x ~18 yr old
2 adults in their 20s who appear to be teenagers

Adding other tags is fine and all, but if you hop on here and search "cub" all of those scenarios will come up and I don't see how people can think they are all equal.

lei_raion said:
I don't disagree with that, sure.
I'm sure there are ways to improve the tagging in this regard, I'm certainly not an expert just throwing in my 2 cents as
the problem now is that an image of a guy banging a 6 year old is considered in the same category as a guy with a teenage looking 22 year old.

again, since "young" and "cub" are just 1 thing all these scenarios are equal:

6yr old x adult
20yr old x adult (could appear teenage so, likely to be marked "young")
18yr old x 18 yr old
2 adults in their 20s who appear to be teenagers

Adding other tags is fine and all, but if you hop on here and search "cub" all of those scenarios will come up.

Operating on twys, if it looks like a teenager, then it gets tagged as such. If the lore (by the artist) is that they're an adult, add adult_(lore)

And as said earlier in the thread, young is an umbrella tag. More specific tags are used to narrow the scope to more specific scenarios.

lei_raion said:
I don't disagree with that, sure.
I'm sure there are ways to improve the tagging in this regard, I'm certainly not an expert just throwing in my 2 cents as
the problem now is that an image of a guy banging a 6 year old is considered in the same category as a guy with a teenage looking 22 year old.

again, since "young" and "cub" are just 1 thing all these scenarios are equal:

baby x adult
6yr old x adult
~20yr old x adult (could appear teenage so, likely to be marked "young")
~18yr old x ~18 yr old
2 adults in their 20s who appear to be teenagers

Adding other tags is fine and all, but if you hop on here and search "cub" all of those scenarios will come up and I don't see how people can think they are all equal.

It's an umbrella tag for any character that looks underage, which is helpful for a lot of people. We have teenager (soon to be adolescent instead), child, toddler, and baby for specific age groups, because as you say, they're not all the same thing. That doesn't mean it's not a helpful tag, Do you have a problem with mammal because it includes hundreds of different species?

snpthecat said:
Operating on twys, if it looks like a teenager, then it gets tagged as such. If the lore (by the artist) is that they're an adult, add adult_(lore)

How does this resolve anything I just mentioned?
If I as a 26 year old am in a porno and people THINK I look like I'm around 18, does that make my porno a child porn?
I'm not talking about the ridiculous 10 year old who claims to be 12,000.

There is no differentiation in the "cub" tag now.
If I were to hop on here and search for child porn I'd get scenarios ranging from what appears to be college kids banging to 10 yr olds banging.
They would all be in the same category.
Additional descriptive tags aren't going to help.

If I want to say "I don't want to see child porn. If it's 0-17 I'm not interested. However, I'm fine with a 30yr old banging an 18 year old."
That's not really possible to search.

pleaseletmein said:
It's an umbrella tag for any character that looks underage, which is helpful for a lot of people. We have teenager (soon to be adolescent instead), child, toddler, and baby for specific age groups, because as you say, they're not all the same thing. That doesn't mean it's not a helpful tag, Do you have a problem with mammal because it includes hundreds of different species?

I guess the saving grace is that cub isn't aliased with child but again... it's frequent that "young" is tagged with "teenager"
No I'm not upset that a human is also a mammal.
I am a little baffled by porn with 18+ yr olds being called child porn.

I doubt we want to argue morals here, but I'm pretty sure nearly everyone can agree that sexual contact with a 12 yr old is very different from sexual contact with an 18 yr old.

if I ban the word "cub" which is aliased to "young" anything that isn't 24+ is probably coming off my filter.
If I'm fine going down to college age in my searches.... why do I have to start seeing 12 yr olds too?

lei_raion said:
I don't disagree with that, sure.
I'm sure there are ways to improve the tagging in this regard, I'm certainly not an expert just throwing in my 2 cents as
the problem now is that an image of a guy banging a 6 year old is considered in the same category as a guy with a teenage looking 22 year old.

it had been in the same category before this change was made. a "legally" adult character that looks like a teenager has always been considered teenager by TWYS and teenager had implied young "since before your account was created"/tag_implications/4364 (it doesn't right this moment because we're in the process of changing the tag name over to adolescent).

lei_raion said:
If I want to say "I don't want to see child porn. If it's 0-17 I'm not interested. However, I'm fine with a 30yr old banging an 18 year old."
That's not really possible to search.

search adult_(lore) or blacklist young -adult_(lore)

sipothac said:
search adult_(lore) or blacklist young -adult_(lore)

Mhm, and with that the majority of things are not tagged with lore and would be removed from the searches.
Also, adult_(lore) is heavily used for the meme that was brought up earlier of the individual that looks like a 10 year old but is actually 12,000 years old.

So again, I'm either searching for late 20s or literal children.

pleaseletmein said:
It's an umbrella tag for any character that looks underage, which is helpful for a lot of people. We have teenager (soon to be adolescent instead), child, toddler, and baby for specific age groups, because as you say, they're not all the same thing. That doesn't mean it's not a helpful tag, Do you have a problem with mammal because it includes hundreds of different species?

Mentioning those tags, did some preliminary edit of toddler , here. I tried to make it as compliant with alias/split tag as possible. Young tag should probably have separate lists for the different form and gender tags, instead of editing the same list into half a dozen Wiki entries? It would likely be just a bit less confusing to find the information, then? Or keep the lists per tag, and then have those two tables in the main young article? They probably will end up edit-locked at some point?

lei_raion said:
Mhm, and with that the majority of things are not tagged with lore and would be removed from the searches.
Also, adult_(lore) is heavily used for the meme that was brought up earlier of the individual that looks like a 10 year old but is actually 12,000 years old.

So again, I'm either searching for late 20s or literal children.

I don't know what to tell you, my dude, this has been how it's always worked, nothing about the cub tag split has changed the fact that TWYS exists. I don't know why you're complaining about it now, in this thread.

sipothac said:
I don't know what to tell you, my dude, this has been how it's always worked, nothing about the cub tag split has changed the fact that TWYS exists. I don't know why you're complaining about it now, in this thread.

This is simply not the case. searching "cub" did not pop up "young" tagged images until somewhat recently.
This seems like an appropriate place to discuss it since this thread started with mentioning the alias and implied changes, no?

If an image has young and you blacklist "cub" you will not see that image.
It doesn't matter that it has "teenager" in the tags as well.
"adult_(lore)" is going to largely be showing age manipulation memes, not people in their 20s that some people think look 18.

Is there a good reason my blacklist needs to become a wildly complex regex that could end up still missing things or still end up showing me nonsense I don't want to see? (such as the 10 yr old looking 12,000yr old?)

Young seems like an appropriate tag for a young adult. 18-24
If I say "He slept with this young girl" that is what most reasonable people IRL would assume.
By site definition it means he slept with a girl ages 0-19

If you're saying it was ALWAYS defined that way on the wiki, that would (imo) be a problem with the wiki.
Especially since the search function never treated it that way. (again, until recently)
Especially since it's been mentioned in this thread that people use implication instead of strictly reading the wiki.

lei_raion said:
This is simply not the case. searching "cub" did not pop up "young" tagged images until somewhat recently.
This seems like an appropriate place to discuss it since this thread started with mentioning the alias and implied changes, no?

If an image has young and you blacklist "cub" you will not see that image.
It doesn't matter that it has "teenager" in the tags as well.
"adult_(lore)" is going to largely be showing age manipulation memes, not people in their 20s that some people think look 18.

Is there a good reason my blacklist needs to become a wildly complex regex that could end up still missing things or still end up showing me nonsense I don't want to see? (such as the 10 yr old looking 12,000yr old?)

Young seems like an appropriate tag for a young adult. 18-24
If I say "He slept with this young girl" that is what most reasonable people IRL would assume.
By site definition it means he slept with a girl ages 0-19

If you're saying it was ALWAYS defined that way on the wiki, that would (imo) be a problem with the wiki.
Especially since the search function never treated it that way. (again, until recently)
Especially since it's been mentioned in this thread that people use implication instead of strictly reading the wiki.

We're working on the young_<form> and young_<gender> tags. For now, adding this to blacklist should help immensely:
young feral solo
young anthro solo
*_on_young feral
*_on_young anthro

lei_raion said:
This is simply not the case. searching "cub" did not pop up "young" tagged images until somewhat recently.

Again incorrect. The cub tag, back when it existed, implied the young tag for almost the entire lifetime of the site. In fact the first post in this very thread is the one that removed that implication. That means that it has always been physically impossible for any search for "cub" to not pop up images tagged "young".

wat8548 said:
Again incorrect. The cub tag, back when it existed, implied the young tag for almost the entire lifetime of the site. In fact the first post in this very thread is the one that removed that implication. That means that it has always been physically impossible for any search for "cub" to not pop up images tagged "young".

I mean, I don't heavily search nor do I know the change history exactly... but I know for a fact that not too long ago I could search in my own favorites for "cub" and 0 things came up whereas a handful of things would come up if I instead searched "young"
That is not true today.

So either you are mistaken or the site was working improperly various times over the last year on my end.

lei_raion said:
I mean, I don't heavily search nor do I know the change history exactly... but I know for a fact that not too long ago I could search in my own favorites for "cub" and 0 things came up whereas a handful of things would come up with "young"
That is not true today.

So either you are mistaken or the site was working improperly various times over the last year on my end.

Because, as one of the reasons for getting rid of it, cub was inconsistently applied. Even the admins would get confused, sometimes saying it applied to all anthro/feral young characters, and other times saying it didn't apply to teens (and sometimes locking off cub from a post while locking on young). Any anthro/feral young characters not also tagged cub fell into this inconsistent zone, making it unreliable for that purpose.

lei_raion said:
I mean, I don't heavily search nor do I know the change history exactly... but I know for a fact that not too long ago I could search in my own favorites for "cub" and 0 things came up whereas a handful of things would come up if I instead searched "young"
That is not true today.

So either you are mistaken or the site was working improperly various times over the last year on my end.

that's because cub no longer exists as its own tag. it was decided that it had an invalid use case, and its definition was split in two and given to young_anthro and young_feral that better fit our current tagging format and syntax. cub itself was then aliased to the closest valid tag, which was young.

that's what this whole thread was about, purging cub and replacing it.

sipothac said:
that's because cub no longer exists as its own tag. it was decided that it had an invalid use case, and its definition was split in two and given to young_anthro and young_feral that better fit our current tagging format and syntax. cub itself was then aliased to the closest valid tag, which was young.

that's what this whole thread was about, purging cub and replacing it.

I understand this, I was just replying to the individual telling me I was incorrect, when I was not.

watsit said:
Because, as one of the reasons for getting rid of it, cub was inconsistently applied. Even the admins would get confused, sometimes saying it applied to all anthro/feral young characters, and other times saying it didn't apply to teens (and sometimes locking off cub from a post while locking on young). Any anthro/feral young characters not also tagged cub fell into this inconsistent zone, making it unreliable for that purpose.

Right but now young blanket applies to anything 19 or under. That's a bit odd no?
I think there is a pretty strong difference between porn with young adults and porn with children.
IDK if at this point the staff simply isn't interested in discussion or not --- but...
I don't think these things should be conflated.

There are a fair bit of posts that contain "young" because a 20-something character could be perceived by some as a teenager.
There are a fair bit of posts that a character looks to be late-teens...
There are plenty of posts that are likely underaged characters...
These 3 are in the same grouping as babies atm --- that's my issue with it.

To be clear if I'm watching porn with 18-24 (sometimes even late 20s) year olds, they appear young. They are not underaged children.
That is porn, not child porn.
It's odd to call it child porn.

lei_raion said:
[…]
Right but now young blanket applies to anything under 19. That's a bit odd no?
I think there is a pretty strong difference between porn with young adults and porn with children.
IDK if at this point the staff simply isn't interested in discussion or not --- but...
I don't think these things should be conflated.
[…]

There’s baby, toddler, child and adolescent to divide the young tag.

dimoretpinel said:
There’s baby, toddler, child and adolescent to divide the young tag.

And young lumps all of them together.
If a porn has a young looking 28 year old in it would you categorize that in the same section as people having sex with toddlers?
These are the type of things that I mean... That guy might look like a young adult... but he's definitely not a child/underaged/etc
So going "Oh this first one is cub adolescent porn and the second one is cub toddler porn" doesn't make sense to me.

Earlier someone mentioned "mammal" vs "human" you could tag both and it would make sense. Yes.
Subcategory of mammal --> human
This makes sense because human further describes the super category.

The subcategory of child porn is adolescent and adolescent is anything that could appear to be up to 19yrs old.
"19 year old" further describes the age of the character in this child porn. <--- that sentence doesn't make sense.

lei_raion said:
And young lumps all of them together.
If a porn has a young looking 28 year old in it would you categorize that in the same section as people having sex with toddlers?

Just as mammal lumps all mammals together, but the individual tags still exist. A 28 year old that looks like a toddler would be tagged toddler, a 28 year old that looks like a teenager would be tagged teenager, a 28 year old that looks like an adult would not be tagged young. We don't tag the age an artist or character owner says they are, since the law in many cases where this would be relevant wouldn't care about that, and we couldn't be sure whether the artist or character owner was making a good-faith statement, or just trying to distance themselves from being perceived as making cub porn regardless of what they make (how many artists just throw out a blanket "All characters are 18+" statement before drawing what a reasonable person could infer to be an underage character if they didn't know better?). Cub didn't work any better, as it was tagged on plenty of posts with characters that looked like teenagers (and it was a random toss-up whether it would be tagged on such posts, so you couldn't be sure what it would be tagged or not tagged on).

watsit said:
Just as mammal lumps all mammals together, but the individual tags still exist. A 28 year old that looks like a toddler would be tagged toddler, a 28 year old that looks like a teenager would be tagged teenager, a 28 year old that looks like an adult would not be tagged young. We don't tag the age an artist or character owner says they are, since the law in many cases where this would be relevant wouldn't care about that, and we couldn't be sure whether the artist or character owner was making a good-faith statement, or just trying to distance themselves from being perceived as making cub porn regardless of what they make (how many artists just throw out a blanket "All characters are 18+" statement before drawing what a reasonable person could infer to be an underage character if they didn't know better?). Cub didn't work any better, as it was tagged on plenty of posts with characters that looked like teenagers (and it was a random toss-up whether it would be tagged on such posts, so you couldn't be sure what it would be tagged or not tagged on).

So is the change purely from a legal "lets just cut the hassle and be safe from our end" type of stance? I could understand that.
A character being in college 19-22 looking like a teenager is absolutely not abnormal at all.
Hell, my partner IRL is 27 and he looks exactly like his pictures in his teenage years.
Artists drawing characters and claiming they are early/mid 20s but they are scrawny or short can easily make them appear to be teenage.
I'm sure the vast majority of the time it's pretty easy to tell if people are being bad faith...
https://e621.net/posts/4499232?q=adult_%28lore%29
for example, to me does not come off as good faith "this isn't a child"

https://e621.net/posts/4491441?q=adult_%28lore%29
But this does. These guys could easily be college age.

Is it just a legal safety thing or are we really outright saying what I originally posted "they look 30 or it's cub porn"?

For the last time, we are not changing TWYS. Ever.

lei_raion said:
So is the change purely from a legal "lets just cut the hassle and be safe from our end" type of stance?

Nothing about young, teenager, child, etc, is changing (except that teenager is being renamed to adolescent, but it's usage is identical either way). They all still apply as they always did. All that's changed here is getting rid of the cub tags since they were unnecessarily specific (only anthro or feral, there's no equivalent for only human or humanoid), was inconsistent (it would be tagged on some teenager/adolescent posts and not others, with no real rhyme or reason), and led to confusion (where even the admins didn't know what it was supposed to be for).

lei_raion said:
I'm sure the vast majority of the time it's pretty easy to tell if people are being bad faith...
https://e621.net/posts/4499232?q=adult_%28lore%29
for example, to me does not come off as good faith "this isn't a child"

By "bad faith" I mean trying to avoid the insinuation that it looks like an underage character. I wouldn't necessary call it bad faith to say a loli vampire is 1000 years old, if they're not trying to hide the fact that it looks like a loli and should otherwise be treated as such. It's when people draw characters without really thinking about how young they look, that reasonable people can then infer to be underage, and then try to claim they're 18 or older without acknowledging they could look underage to a reasonable person; that's what I'd call bad faith.

lei_raion said:
I'm sure the vast majority of the time it's pretty easy to tell if people are being bad faith...
https://e621.net/posts/4499232?q=adult_%28lore%29
for example, to me does not come off as good faith "this isn't a child"

out of the following which of these would you call "bad faith"?
post #4097384 post #3335146 post #3196541
just a random selection

lei_raion said:
https://e621.net/posts/4491441?q=adult_%28lore%29
But this does. These guys could easily be college age.

this one is animal_humanoids so it wouldn't have ever been considered for the cub tag in the first place, so...

watsit said:
Nothing about young, teenager, child, etc, is changing (except that teenager is being renamed to adolescent, but it's usage is identical either way). They all still apply as they always did. All that's changed here is getting rid of the cub tags since they were unnecessarily specific (only anthro or feral, there's no equivalent for only human or humanoid), was inconsistent (it would be tagged on some teenager/adolescent posts and not others, with no real rhyme or reason), and led to confusion (where even the admins didn't know what it was supposed to be for).

You're saying that "young" isn't changing, that may be, but "cub" is being added into it because it is being phased out, correct?
The definition might have stayed the same but the implications of it are definitely effected.

watsit said:
By "bad faith" I mean trying to avoid the insinuation that it looks like an underage character. I wouldn't necessary call it bad faith to say a loli vampire is 1000 years old, if they're not trying to hide the fact that it looks like a loli and should otherwise be treated as such. It's when people draw characters without really thinking about how young they look, that reasonable people can then infer to be underage, and then try to claim they're 18 or older without acknowledging they could look underage to a reasonable person; that's what I'd call bad faith.

If some artist drew something and claimed a character was 22 and you say they look like a teenager, right?
Let's say for the sake of argument that the character does indeed look like they could be in their teens... y'all are claiming that makes the artist bad faith?
I find it extremely hard to believe that you would considering it's very common to run into people in their 20s who look like they could still be in college or even high school.
This is not an abnormal event at all.

https://e621.net/posts/3320051
https://e621.net/posts/4322381
https://e621.net/posts/4297248
https://e621.net/posts/2759235
https://e621.net/posts/3460335
https://e621.net/posts/3838051
Knowing nothing about these artist or the posts themselves -- just quickly searched solo posts...
I think one could look at any of these and reasonably assume the character is 18.
18 is adolescent which is young which is now also cub.

I don't understand why it's reasonable to be able to look at any of the above posts and come to the conclusion that it's cub porn. They simply aren't.
Again, these are just random examples. But that's my point.... It seems to me that there is extreme difficulty in figuring out a way to tag characters that are 18-24~
These types of characters in the past seemed to often get a "young" tag and that that seemed reasonably descriptive, they'd be young adults *Shrug*.
But with cub disappearing and being rolled into "young" those characters will now just be directly implicated as child porn.
Under 19? Child porn. That seems ridiculous.

sipothac said:
this one is animal_humanoids so it wouldn't have ever been considered for the cub tag in the first place, so...

I'm using cub and child interchangeably. The point was the character was very child-like, did not appear to be even a teenager.
I was just going off of context for how "bad faith" was being used and Watsit clarified how that phrase is being used afterward.

lei_raion said:
But with cub disappearing and being rolled into "young" those characters will now just be directly implicated as child porn.
Under 19? Child porn. That seems ridiculous.

topic #41779

lei_raion said:
Right but now young blanket applies to anything 19 or under. That's a bit odd no?

Your not reading wiki pages is showing.

young:

A blanket tag for characters who are "not adult" — characters who have a clear physical appearance of being under the age of 18, "underage", "minor" etc.

teenager:

Characters who appear to be in the age range of thirteen to seventeen. While in actual English use "teenager" can describe characters as old as nineteen, on e621 it is one of several tags to communicate that a character is underaged.

It doesn't apply to characters that appear over the age of 18. If you're tagging or seeing characters that look above 18 (not are defined as 18, outside information does not matter as per TWYS), then the post is tagged incorrectly.
Cub was undertagged, because people did exactly what you're doing, coming up with their own definitions rather than reading the wiki page.

This whole argument you're trying to present here is barely relevant, you seem to be arguing some age range (18-24) isn't young, which yes, you are correct. We don't care what their "actual age" is, we care what they look like. If they look like they're underage, they're tagged as such. None of the examples you linked look remotely underage.

lei_raion said:
You're saying that "young" isn't changing, that may be, but "cub" is being added into it because it is being phased out, correct?
The definition might have stayed the same but the implications of it are definitely effected.

The usage of those that had a definition in their head that differed from the actual tag's definition will have had some changes, sure. That happens with all large aliases, there will always be some people that used it wrong, and insist the way they used it is correct. Some using the tag incorrectly does not change its actual definition, and does not make it worth keeping.

donovan_dmc said:
Your not reading wiki pages is showing.

Really no need to be this aggressive.
I was going by what I said earlier, adolescent which is currently not defined on the wiki. On google, generally, it is considered to be 10-19.
If this is one of the pieces that young is broken into, it is in the range.

donovan_dmc said:
young:
teenager:
It doesn't apply to characters that appear over the age of 18. If you're tagging or seeing characters that look above 18 (not are defined as 18, outside information does not matter as per TWYS), then the post is tagged incorrectly.
Cub was undertagged, because people did exactly what you're doing, coming up with their own definitions rather than reading the wiki page.

This whole argument you're trying to present here is barely relevant, you seem to be arguing some age range (18-24) isn't young, which yes, you are correct. We don't care what their "actual age" is, we care what they look like. If they look like they're underage, they're tagged as such. None of the examples you linked look remotely underage.

The usage of those that had a definition in their head that differed from the actual tag's definition will have had some changes, sure. That happens with all large aliases, there will always be some people that used it wrong, and insist the way they used it is correct. Some using the tag incorrectly does not change its actual definition, and does not make it worth keeping.

All of the examples I linked look like they could be teenagers. The entire point is how are you really differentiating between 17 and 18.
You are honestly telling me you've never seen people in real life that you thought were in high school but were actually in their 20s? I find that dubious.
https://e621.net/posts/4529225?q=teenager
The above link is the first one of the post examples on the "teenager" wiki and this character from this angle with no other context...
You'd tell me this character couldn't reasonably be considered to be an adult??? Again, dubious.

https://e621.net/posts/4490025?q=teenager
How about her? Clearly no one would ever see this image and think this character is of age right? o_o...

https://e621.net/posts/4436271?q=teenager
This jacked bunny couldn't be 18+? He's clearly underaged?

My argument is that people frequently conflate characters that are late teens or in their 20s (people who in real life frequently appear much younger) to 17 and mark them as teenager, young, whatever you'd like to say. (which is directly linked to cub, which means you're looking at child porn)
The character in your profile image could reasonably appear to be underaged to people, hell the character in MY profile image might even.
This is not an uncommon thing even irl.

It is weird to see characters who could reasonably appear to be somewhere in their late teens and are defined to be adults be also described as child porn.
If e621 simply wants to chop that up to "safe than sorry, legal stuffs." fine but it doesn't seem like that's the argument.
It seems like the argument is "Young looking adults are just child porn."
Apply that elsewhere and there'd be a lot of porn stars / amateurs in their late 20s and early 30s that would qualify as starring in child porn...

cloudpie said:
topic #41779

Thanks, will take a look tomorrow

Haha this is going to confuse my brain for ages. Always assumed cub was Furry, Fantasy related younger furs

And young as the tag to avoid as it felt non-fantasy and too realistic

lei_raion said:
I was going by what I said earlier, adolescent which is currently not defined on the wiki. On google, generally, it is considered to be 10-19.
If this is one of the pieces that young is broken into, it is in the range.

Consider the fact that teenager is becoming adolescent. They will have the same age range. Outside definitions don't matter here.

All of the examples I linked look like they could be teenagers. The entire point is how are you really differentiating between 17 and 18.

You're taking things too literally. We aren't. The listed age ranges are general guides, we aren't placing an exact number on every character.
Someone could maybe consider them a teenager, sure. The opinion of one random person doesn't matter. Go around asking if they look underage, you'll get told no.

You are honestly telling me you've never seen people in real life that you thought were in high school but were actually in their 20s? I find that dubious.

I never said that. Once more, their actual age does not matter. We're tagging based off of appearance. It doesn't matter if they're "30 years old" and have a big head, stubby limbs, and are 3 feet tall, they're getting tagged as young, because they look like it. All that stems from the ever recurring "1000 year old loli" problem.

https://e621.net/posts/4529225?q=teenager
The above link is the first one of the post examples on the "teenager" wiki and this character from this angle with no other context...
You'd tell me this character couldn't reasonably be considered to be an adult??? Again, dubious.

https://e621.net/posts/4490025?q=teenager
How about her? Clearly no one would ever see this image and think this character is of age right? o_o...

https://e621.net/posts/4436271?q=teenager
This jacked bunny couldn't be 18+? He's clearly underaged?

Also consider the fact that anyone can tag something. Those posts you listed were all tagged by their uploaders, which could very well be using outside information.
post #4529225 is tagged as cub on inkbunny
post #4490025 has no source, so they presumably have some information we don't have
post #3831048 is tagged shota on pixiv

Teenager is not valid on any of these posts. Uploaders deciding to use outside information does not invalidate any tag definitions. We don't curate every single post under every tag, mistags happen.

That's fair, it would be frankly ridiculous to expect every single post is perfectly moderated.

I really don't think I'd be told no. Especially the first example I used prior: https://e621.net/posts/3320051 --> this girl could absolutely be 17.
and the 3 in my last post, I think are very questionable.... an outside source telling you this guy (https://e621.net/posts/4436271) is 13? That's reasonable?
This rabbit absolutely does not appear to be 13. I would be literally shocked if I took this to 20 random people on the street and any guessed under 16.
(For the record, I am absolutely not doing that. xD)

I don't think it's unreasonable to think the average person could assume these characters could be 18+ and some might also think they are underaged.
If it's even close to a 50/50 and the artist is saying "adult" why would the answer be "nope child porn"?
https://e621.net/posts/3646904 --> confidently saying "this post is incorrectly marked and should have adolescent/young/etc (aka cub)" seems strange.
Yes, this post appears to me as a young adult, late teen, under 18? IDK possibly but intuitively feels unlikely.
How is something like this determined to not be a child but others aren't?
https://e621.net/posts/4267065 --> this is definitely an underaged character?

I get you are saying there will be things marked incorrectly, but I'm looking for things that are at least a couple months old.
Meaning, it's likely a lot of the community that will look at that post, have already viewed it and argued over tags.
So people largely consider this Jack Reacher looking cat to be an underaged child but Bam who's questionably 18 is an adult.
I get the moderation staff can't get to everything but I guess I'm saying there seems to be endless examples.

In the rare cases that I've seen a character that I've assumed was around college age with an artist telling the viewer they are 18+ get locked (or just a mod stepping in) with cub it's felt pretty silly.
https://e621.net/posts/3857072
Like this guy who is apparently volunteering for a "job" at his college is underaged O_O.....
I'm suppose to look at this with that context and go "yup definitely child porn"?
To me, it appears like the intent was for the canine to be a freshmen college student (generally 18-19) getting banged by seniors.

Checking that post's edit history version 13 pretty much nails it: "Reason: Source says character is in college, character clearly has adult genitals, no other character art has cub tag"

It's worth keeping in mind the main issue I have is kinda mentioned in the OP and in the OP of the thread the other mod mentioned a few posts back....
People in common parlance do not use "young" to strictly mean "underaged". However, here, you do.
So saying a character "appears young" when it is anything like the cases I've linked as examples means you are prescribing that they are underaged.
The implication to the viewer is that you are viewing child porn now. Not just looking at young looking characters.

Imagine this conversation around this post: https://e621.net/posts/3320051
A: "I banged this pretty young girl yesterday"
B: "You fucked a kid? Wtf?"
A: "What? She was 23."
B: "I mean in the picture you just showed me she could possibly pass for 17."
A: "Oh my you're right, I guess she was 17."

That's effectively what's playing out.
Users search through people's favorites all the time to find out if they have "cub porn" in there so they can holier than thou in comments is common, even mods have done it.
So, imo, it is problematic to be able to prescribe that young looking characters (again, I'm referring to things like what I have linked, not the loli age meme stuff)
are just child porn.
Plus, I don't want to have instances like this: https://e621.net/posts/4294868
Where the characters look fairly young and then some time months from now someone decides to tag young, get into a tag war, and then have a mod lock it.
Now the image I've liked for months and have imagined as young (but not underaged) characters is explicitly locked as child porn.

It happened with this post: https://e621.net/posts/3108020
Where a war broke out many months after the post was made, then a mod came in and made the decision "yes" and locked "cub" onto the post.
Later, a mod decided "no" and removed+locked young and cub.
This one happened to eventually work out in the positive - but that's not the case every time.

Is it not possible to have a tag like "questionable_age" not linked to young to instead cover scenarios? Would that just cause more mess/confusion?

lei_raion said:
That's effectively what's playing out.
Users search through people's favorites all the time to find out if they have "cub porn" in there so they can holier than thou in comments is common, even mods have done it.

"holier than thou"?

tha-- that's not why we (and staff) look through people's favs to try to find extreme fetish content. if anything it's the inverse. we do it because people come to the forums to complain about some fetish/tag they don't like (usually it's young) while having a bunch of bestiality or rape or, most recently, snuff in their favs. it's not an effort to raise ourselves above the other user it's an effort to knock them off their self-constructed pedestal of unearned moral superiority.

donovan_dmc said:
Your not reading wiki pages is showing.

"Reading takes too long, too busy being angry." Seriously, I already predicted that when pointing out the existence of separate child/etc. tags, Lei Raion would refuse to bother reading it.

Ugh, instead of arguing for a young_adult or 18_plus tag or anything besides complaining about young tagging groups, gonna wall-of-text us with 20 more pages of reasons no one else in this topic agrees with, including veterans who are the ones that have been dealing with cub tag for years.

BTW: There's a reason we don't have adult on 3.5M posts. XD

OK, TBF, I did see the "questionable_age" thing just now. Not sure what it fixes, though. :shrugs:

sipothac said:
"holier than thou"?

tha-- that's not why we (and staff) look through people's favs to try to find extreme fetish content. if anything it's the inverse. we do it because people come to the forums to complain about some fetish/tag they don't like (usually it's young) while having a bunch of bestiality or rape or, most recently, snuff in their favs. it's not an effort to raise ourselves above the other user it's an effort to knock them off their self-constructed pedestal of unearned moral superiority.

Slightly misspoke --- I meant that people, instead of engaging with an argument, engage in whataboutism by accusing them of being "holier than thou".
For example, do you think it's not justifiable to disagree with child rape conceptually just because you have rape in your favorites?
CNC is a thing.. If both parties can legally consent, I'd say that's quite different.
Now, that's not justifying going to comments on posts just to trash on the post.
But I noticed you found 1 thing to cling to and ignored all the other reasonable points I was making...

If a character appears to be a young adult currently on this site, there doesn't seem to be a good way of shepherding that into a tag.
It most likely will end up marked young or just remain in a questionable null zone where someone might occassionally drop by and throw a teenager or young tag on it only for it to be removed shortly thereafter.

----

alphamule said:
"Reading takes too long, too busy being angry." Seriously, I already predicted that when pointing out the existence of separate child/etc. tags, Lei Raion would refuse to bother reading it.

Ugh, instead of arguing for a young_adult or 18_plus tag or anything besides complaining about young tagging groups, gonna wall-of-text us with 20 more pages of reasons no one else in this topic agrees with, including veterans who are the ones that have been dealing with cub tag for years.

BTW: There's a reason we don't have adult on 3.5M posts. XD

OK, TBF, I did see the "questionable_age" thing just now. Not sure what it fixes, though. :shrugs:

It's pretty amazing that you and the mod accused me of not reading the wiki when nothing that I said conflicted with the wiki.
What I mean when people try to search for reason to call people "holier than thou" as sipothac was responding to is that people don't actually engage with arguments.
They, as you just did, look for ways to circumnavigate the argument and go "well your argument doesn't matter because you like X".

Why is it there seems to be no real engagement with the stuff? People are often remarkably dismissive.. And if you want to act that way on a post's comment section that seems a little more reasonable then on a thread literally discussing tagging.

A young_adult or 18_plus tag would be great. I quite literally have already asked why it isn't more reasonable to create something like questionable_age, the 2 you suggested are even better imo.

However, could they even be used? Right now characters who, by appearance, could be anywhere in the late teens to mid 20s are often just marked as young.

edit: "Not sure what it fixes, though."
It fixes that little pocket of characters that are young adults xD...
That's the entire thing I'm arguing for.
If a character looks questionably around late teens some people might interpret that character is 17. That's underaged.
But I'd say if a good chunk of people feel the character could reasonably be 18+, it probably deserves a young_adult or some other similar type of tag instead.
Whats the point of that? The point is that character wouldn't be considered in the category of "child porn". That is a very big line/distinction/whatever you'd like to call it to a great many people.
For sure it's enough of a line for me that I'm willing to take my time expressing my opinion on these tags when I generally don't talk very much on this site at all.

I actually said it wasn't the Wiki but the replies here, but sorry for getting annoyed. I was just so frustrated reading this thread. I got snarky and said some stuff that is rude. XD
The usual thing is said person complains about say, violence in a post, and then has tons of gore favorited, or hates cub, but then oh look, tons of loli and young_feral favorites. Which you have to admit, is hilariously ironic when it happens.

Well yeah, explicit ages would be nice but it's proven hard to nail down. Technically, 'young' 20's are mistagged. Younger than who? Me? The artist? Other characters? Mr (Monty) Burns? This is also why young_* and younger_* are both things. You have say, solo posts where younger_male or something would not make any sense. Younger and older is really only useful on non-safe posts, most of the time, I guess? There's fetishes that can be filtered specific to those tags. Same as how we have male_penetrating_female or the like.

Part of this is also the legacy of people being paranoid on cub tags. Like, remote possibility it could offend someone who didn't want to see young-looking (minor) characters? Slap a cub tag on it and call it a day. This has back-fired immensely on Fur Affinity, haha. I am not the only one hesitant to remove young_* tags, unless it's blatantly obvious. There were a surprising number of cub tags on characters that looked adult.

Everything in previous post looks done. I guess it's time to move on to the duo posts. No, wait, still not done. :edit: OK, finished with the following lines!

set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_female -young_male -young_intersex male -intersex -female Done
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_female -young_male -young_intersex -male intersex -female -> set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_female -young_male -young_intersex -male intersex -female -young_andromorph -young_gynomorph -young_maleherm -young_herm Done
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_female -young_male -young_intersex -male intersex -female -young_andromorph andromorph Done
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_female -young_male -young_intersex -male intersex -female -young_gynomorph gynomorph Done
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_female -young_male -young_intersex -male intersex -female -young_herm herm Done
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_female -young_male -young_intersex -male intersex -female -young_maleherm maleherm Done
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_female -young_male -young_intersex -male -intersex female Done

casmin7~ said:
Haha this is going to confuse my brain for ages. Always assumed cub was Furry, Fantasy related younger furs

And young as the tag to avoid as it felt non-fantasy and too realistic

Cub always implied young, so every image tagged cub was also tagged young. If you want to blacklist young non-furries but leave the young furries visible, add young_human and young_humanoid to your blacklist on separate lines.

This thread's still going? Here's my update, I guess.

After the alias went through, I considered what I wanted to do under our new "reality." I looked around a bit and decided to switch from "restoring" searchability to posts previously tagged cub with young_[anthro/feral] tags to instead just tagging all young posts with a young_[body_type] tag. Though I might have talked a strong game, I'm not actually devoted to what the cub tag was, and I've always been bothered by how non-furry characters get treated like second-class citizens on this site. If the art's been approved, then they're all equal. I see us as a fantasy (character) site and not a "furry site."

Case in point, the existence of the cub tag for "furry" characters but no similarly searchable tag for the other body types. It was cub, loli/shota, or bust. So this means I've populated a lot of young_human and young_humanoid that were outside the scope of Donovan's script, but I'm also tagging young_[gender] most of the time too. Tagging both together slows me down a lot and requires more careful scripting. I do not intend to actually finish this project, but I can keep plugging away at it while I still feel like it.

Basically, I've been working on bringing the score in this search down:

score:>700 young -young_feral -young_anthro -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur -type:swf

But I'm also using that search to find artist, character, copyright tags and so on that might have a lot of young art. I do a batch of the above search until I have some secondary tabs to process, do those tabs until I finish, and then switch back to the score:>_00 search. Processing batches of similar art is a lot easier, more productive, and more interesting than constantly reorienting my judgement for vastly different art styles and content. Easier to refine a thought process when you look at 50 similar things in a row, and the decreased variance in content means I'll have larger bunches I can script off together.

tag + young -young_feral -young_anthro -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur -type:swf = 0.

abadbird said:
This thread's still going? Here's my update, I guess.

After the alias went through, I considered what I wanted to do under our new "reality." I looked around a bit and decided to switch from "restoring" searchability to posts previously tagged cub with young_[anthro/feral] tags to instead just tagging all young posts with a young_[body_type] tag. Though I might have talked a strong game, I'm not actually devoted to what the cub tag was, and I've always been bothered by how non-furry characters get treated like second-class citizens on this site. If the art's been approved, then they're all equal. I see us as a fantasy (character) site and not a "furry site."

Case in point, the existence of the cub tag for "furry" characters but no similarly searchable tag for the other body types. It was cub, loli/shota, or bust. So this means I've populated a lot of young_human and young_humanoid that were outside the scope of Donovan's script, but I'm also tagging young_[gender] most of the time too. Tagging both together slows me down a lot and requires more careful scripting. I do not intend to actually finish this project, but I can keep plugging away at it while I still feel like it.

Basically, I've been working on bringing the score in this search down:

score:>700 young -young_feral -young_anthro -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur -type:swf

But I'm also using that search to find artist, character, copyright tags and so on that might have a lot of young art. I do a batch of the above search until I have some secondary tabs to process, do those tabs until I finish, and then switch back to the score:>_00 search. Processing batches of similar art is a lot easier, more productive, and more interesting than constantly reorienting my judgement for vastly different art styles and content. Easier to refine a thought process when you look at 50 similar things in a row, and the decreased variance in content means I'll have larger bunches I can script off together.

tag + young -young_feral -young_anthro -young_human -young_humanoid -young_taur -type:swf = 0.

tags with finished young_form tagging

This isn't a complete list, just the relatively larger bunches, either by % of total young art or just having lots of young art that I tagged.

iztli
norihito
mattya604
mantis-x
lesdias
abubu
a_hat_in_time
crade
4ere4nik
butterchalk
biggreen
t.f.a.n.c.s
pumpkinspicelatte
akai
diona_(genshin_impact)
crumbles
dacad
dagasi
black-kitten
hooves-art
ketzio
merunyaa
b-ern
zaush
masterploxy
sewayaki_kitsune_no_senko-san
j7w
gwenyvere_(malberrybush)
kid_icarus
rodecchi
lalafell
joaoppereiraus
fairwind
appl
lunaflame
aogami
kso
the_last_of_us
fearingfun
tush
kikurage
daigaijin
sinensian
theoryofstrings
syuro
harmarist
eldiman
kaion
bleachedleaves
esearu
autumn_snow
yupa
youjomodoki
kinkykong
the_owl_house
caluriri
khaz_(artist)
jcm2_(artist)
b-intend
lilandy
0k0j0
john_doe_(artist)
theevilfallenone
interspecies_reviewers
genshin_impact
toku909
daikung
aoizuri
zaire_(nightdancer)
nightdancer_(character)
bunnybits
azur_lane
zooshi
nekonorin

Time to get started again. Yeah, I started with solo posts for mostly same reason as you did popular ones first. There are probably a LOT of them untagged solo with only one character in that search. I'm moving on to duo soon.

What about stuff like this? set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_female -young_male -young_intersex male -intersex -female -humanoid -feral -anthro A lot look anthro but I have some doubts. They might have just not been tagged, or they might be something technically not anthro? Done
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_female -young_male -young_intersex -male -intersex female -humanoid -feral -anthro Done
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_female -young_male -young_intersex -male intersex -female -humanoid -feral -anthro Done

jackie_(jackie's_story) Humanoid or anthro?

Been trying to separate out humanoids and taurs from anthro and feral, using searches like this . Done
Those not tagged anthro/feral/humanoid/taur can probably wait until we finish the ones that ARE tagged.

set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_taur -young_humanoid taur Done
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_taur -young_humanoid anthro -humanoid
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_taur -young_humanoid humanoid -anthro -taur -human Done
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_taur -young_humanoid humanoid taur Corruptions of Champions version there, I'm not sure of. Effectively done.
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_taur -young_humanoid humanoid -anthro Done
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_taur -young_humanoid humanoid human Other than the Flash posts and one below, done.
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_taur -young_humanoid humanoid anthro Strictly speaking, humanoid and anthro should not apply to this many solo posts, most likely. :Shrugs:
set:cub_apocalypse solo -young_feral -young_anthro -young_taur -young_humanoid humanoid -human Pretty much the same results as previous line.

What about these? post #3829727 post #3490791

https://e621.net/forum_topics/39326 Feral_girl and feral_boy need a cleanup before aliasing. I'll make sure that they all have young_feral as applicable, then we can figure out which are actually young_<gender>? I highly suspect that it's not as straightforward as boy -> young_male and girl -> young_female.