Is it just me or are the individual mixed breed tags unsustainable? I know the rule for hybrids is that they can have their own tags only if they exist in real life, so theoretically mixed breeds would all get their own tags under that rule since they can all exist in real life. But there are thousands of possible dog breed/cat breed/etc. combinations.
I feel like it would make more sense to tag for example a pomsky as pomeranian husky mixed_breed, same way we do fictional hybrid tags, instead of pomsky. This would also mean aliasing all the current mixed breed tags to mixed_breed.

cloudpie said:
Is it just me or are the individual mixed breed tags unsustainable? I know the rule for hybrids is that they can have their own tags only if they exist in real life, so theoretically mixed breeds would all get their own tags under that rule since they can all exist in real life. But there are thousands of possible dog breed/cat breed/etc. combinations.
I feel like it would make more sense to tag for example a pomsky as pomeranian husky mixed_breed, same way we do fictional hybrid tags, instead of pomsky. This would also mean aliasing all the current mixed breed tags to mixed_breed.

From the Pokemon example, you probably should have something like tagging it both (say, Lugia, Mew_(pokemon), for Mewgia) and then aliased to hybrid to remind people that they need to not use the hybrid name. This avoids geometric tag expansion. Linear growth of number of tags on a gallery is far better than polynomial growth of number of possible tags! XD

Yeah, mixed_breed should alias to hybrid, but seems like a weird tag when we don't consider all anthros to be 'hybrids' even if they look like humans with dog features or dogs that have human spines, or whatever. I guess it makes sense to differentiate from real hybrids and fictional?
*looks it up*

Species: mixed breed

A character of any domesticated species that has features of more than one breed from that species.
Not to be confused with hybrid where a character is a mix of multiple species.

I can see the logic, I guess. Yeah, it only applies to domesticated breeds like Cockapoo's. https://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/cockapoo It does not count for something like a Dox (dog/fox hybrid), I guess. No catdogs! :D
post #113556

I guess to be fair, many breeds are well-known and actually would make sense to tag? I mean, Cockapoo is a well-known breed in their own right. Same with mules being a well-known hybrid.

I wrote out a whole long, detailed response and e6 fuckin sent me to the "are you a robot?" page and ate it :( this is the rewrite

alphamule said:
Yeah, mixed_breed should alias to hybrid, but seems like a weird tag when we don't consider all anthros to be 'hybrids' even if they look like humans with dog features or dogs that have human spines, or whatever. I guess it makes sense to differentiate from real hybrids and fictional?

Maybe I misspoke - what I'm proposing is to keep the mixed_breed tag, but to alias all the individual tags for particular mixes like gerberian_shepsky, cockapoo, etc. to mixed_breed. They would then be tagged similarly to how we tag fictional hybrids, but with the mixed_breed tag instead of hybrid: a cockapoo would be tagged mixed_breed cocker_spaniel poodle.

alphamule said:
I guess to be fair, many breeds are well-known and actually would make sense to tag? I mean, Cockapoo is a well-known breed in their own right. Same with mules being a well-known hybrid.

The thing with this though, is how do we decide what mixes are well known enough? As far as I know, there's no "official" list we could use for which mixes for each domestic species are well known enough. (There ARE official lists of animal breeds though! see the AKC registry for dogs, TICA for cats, etc. But not mixes.)
The hybrids that have e6 tags like mule are allowed because they exist in the real world, not because they're well known. This works because there's a very limited number of hybrid species that exist in the real world (liger, mule, wolfdog, etc. There are reasonably well known furry hybrids like cabbits, but there's just no way to draw an objective line between which ones are well known enough and which ones aren't, so they all get aliased away and tagged with their individual species + hybrid to prevent insane tag bloat.

cloudpie said:
I wrote out a whole long, detailed response and e6 fuckin sent me to the "are you a robot?" page and ate it :( this is the rewrite

Not documented but: If you had pressed back and clicked reply again, it 'should' have still had it cached in your browser. I guess drafts are in local storage?

I realized that I was wrong and posted that in edit. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yeah, mixed_breed is entirely different than hybrids. That makes sense as you explained it with the Cockapoo example.

And yeah, 'well-known-enough' would lead to some strange criteria? "Most popular tags", or "most Google results", or if enough members recognize it without using a search engine. XD Going with stuff like mule because it's real seems reasonable. Feline hybrids of domestic cats and wild species have some interesting results. Bengals for example.

alphamule said:
Not documented but: If you had pressed back and clicked reply again, it 'should' have still had it cached in your browser. I guess drafts are in local storage?

I realized that I was wrong and posted that in edit. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yeah, mixed_breed is entirely different than hybrids. That makes sense as you explained it with the Cockapoo example.

And yeah, 'well-known-enough' would lead to some strange criteria? "Most popular tags", or "most Google results", or if enough members recognize it without using a search engine. XD Going with stuff like mule because it's real seems reasonable. Feline hybrids of domestic cats and wild species have some interesting results. Bengals for example.

Oh ok! Thanks, I'll remember that for next time

Re: bengals and savannah cats: I think they would just be considered cat breeds, not mixed breeds since they are accepted as breeds by TICA. So they would keep their own tags and would not be mixed_breeds.
bengal_cat and savannah_cat would each imply both domestic_cat since they are a TICA-recognized breed of cat and hybrid since they are real-world hybrids.

Edit: While TICA recognizes the savannah cat, CFA doesn't, so I guess maybe it wouldn't imply domestic_cat?? Idk, depends on which registry e6 goes with, or if it's not based on a registry at all and instead this wikipedia list or something

cloudpie said:
Oh ok! Thanks, I'll remember that for next time

Re: bengals and savannah cats: I think they would just be considered cat breeds, not mixed breeds since they are accepted as breeds by TICA. So they would keep their own tags and would not be mixed_breeds.
bengal_cat and savannah_cat would each imply both domestic_cat since they are a TICA-recognized breed of cat and hybrid since they are real-world hybrids.

Edit: While TICA recognizes the savannah cat, CFA doesn't, so I guess maybe it wouldn't imply domestic_cat?? Idk, depends on which registry e6 goes with, or if it's not based on a registry at all and instead this wikipedia list or something

Well, a Bengal Tiger is distinct. We'll make our own list, with illegal thing #1 and other illegal thing #2 whatever actually will be likely to be searched for?

alphamule said:
Well, a Bengal Tiger is distinct. We'll make our own list, with illegal thing #1 and other illegal thing #2 whatever actually will be likely to be searched for?

Bengal tigers (bengal_tiger) and bengal cats (bengal_cat) are very much different animals lol. I think those tag names are fine how they are, people know what a tiger is and what a cat is and can infer that bengal_tiger is talking about the tiger subspecies and bengal_cat is talking about the cat breed

The bulk update request #5195 is pending approval.

remove implication siberian_retriever (5) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication siberian_retriever (5) -> domestic_dog (356531)
remove implication cockapoo (571) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication cockapoo (571) -> domestic_dog (356531)
remove implication labradoodle (5) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication labradoodle (5) -> domestic_dog (356531)
remove implication savannah_cat (201) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove alias catahoula_bull_dog (0) -> catahoula_bulldog (0)
remove implication catahoula_bulldog (0) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication catahoula_bulldog (0) -> bulldog (881)
remove alias utonagan_dog (0) -> utonagan (67)
remove implication utonagan (67) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication utonagan (67) -> domestic_dog (356531)
remove implication shepsky (77) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication pomsky (770) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication gerberian_shepsky (2) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication huskamute (8) -> mixed_breed (3519)

Reason: See above discussion. Here's a BUR if people agree
Savannah cats are a TICA-recognized cat breed so that tag will still imply cat. They're not really a mixed breed anyway, they're a hybrid between a domestic cat and a serval.

part 2:
alias siberian_retriever -> mixed_breed
alias cockapoo -> mixed_breed
alias labradoodle -> mixed_breed
alias catahoula_bulldog -> mixed_breed
alias catahoula_bull_dog -> mixed_breed
alias utonagan -> mixed_breed
alias utonagan_dog -> mixed_breed
alias shepsky -> mixed_breed
alias pomsky -> mixed_breed
alias gerberian_shepsky -> mixed_breed
alias huskamute -> mixed_breed

cloudpie said:
The bulk update request #5195 is pending approval.

remove implication siberian_retriever (5) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication siberian_retriever (5) -> domestic_dog (356531)
remove implication cockapoo (571) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication cockapoo (571) -> domestic_dog (356531)
remove implication labradoodle (5) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication labradoodle (5) -> domestic_dog (356531)
remove implication savannah_cat (201) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove alias catahoula_bull_dog (0) -> catahoula_bulldog (0)
remove implication catahoula_bulldog (0) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication catahoula_bulldog (0) -> bulldog (881)
remove alias utonagan_dog (0) -> utonagan (67)
remove implication utonagan (67) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication utonagan (67) -> domestic_dog (356531)
remove implication shepsky (77) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication pomsky (770) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication gerberian_shepsky (2) -> mixed_breed (3519)
remove implication huskamute (8) -> mixed_breed (3519)

Reason: See above discussion. Here's a BUR if people agree
Savannah cats are a TICA-recognized cat breed so that tag will still imply cat. They're not really a mixed breed anyway, they're a hybrid between a domestic cat and a serval.

part 2:
alias siberian_retriever -> mixed_breed
alias cockapoo -> mixed_breed
alias labradoodle -> mixed_breed
alias catahoula_bulldog -> mixed_breed
alias catahoula_bull_dog -> mixed_breed
alias utonagan -> mixed_breed
alias utonagan_dog -> mixed_breed
alias shepsky -> mixed_breed
alias pomsky -> mixed_breed
alias gerberian_shepsky -> mixed_breed
alias huskamute -> mixed_breed

Hmm, could have sworn I added some of those split tags a couple of months back when this first was posted. Specifically the cokcapoo?

alphamule said:
Hmm, could have sworn I added some of those split tags a couple of months back when this first was posted. Specifically the cokcapoo?

What do you mean? :0

cloudpie said:
What do you mean? :0

https://e621.net/forum_topics/26676 Hmm, this is only result for cockapoo in the forums I saw... I guess I was mistaken.

No results for tags like poodle and hybrid that seem relevant, either. I must have forgotten to do it, or imagined it. Sorry about that!

D'oh! It was in this very thread which is why I missed it in the search: https://e621.net/forum_topics/38393?page=1#forum_post_364384
It's official: My memory is rubbish. Apparently, the rule was not to do it?

alphamule said:
https://e621.net/forum_topics/26676 Hmm, this is only result for cockapoo in the forums I saw... I guess I was mistaken.

No results for tags like poodle and hybrid that seem relevant, either. I must have forgotten to do it, or imagined it. Sorry about that!

D'oh! It was in this very thread which is why I missed it in the search: https://e621.net/forum_topics/38393?page=1#forum_post_364384
It's official: My memory is rubbish. Apparently, the rule was not to do it?

I still might be confused on what you mean but - yes, hybrid and mixed breed are different concepts lol. Breed refers to different selectively bred lineages of one species of domestic animal, so a mixed breed is a mix between two breeds of the same species of domestic animal. A hybrid) is a cross between two different species of animal.

cloudpie said:
I still might be confused on what you mean but - yes, hybrid and mixed breed are different concepts lol. Breed refers to different selectively bred lineages of one species of domestic animal, so a mixed breed is a mix between two breeds of the same species of domestic animal. A hybrid) is a cross between two different species of animal.

So, technically, those taur/anthro conjoined twin things are not hybrids nor mixed breeds? :trollface:

alphamule said:
So, technically, those taur/anthro conjoined twin things are not hybrids nor mixed breeds? :trollface:

Correct, taur is a body style, and conjoined characters aren't considered hybrids for species purposes iirc

Maybe the cutoff could be based on how distinct the mix is? Like a huskamute isn't meaningfully different from a husky or a malamute as far as furry art goes, but the same isn't true for a labradoodle.

savannah_cat needs to be unimplicated from mixed_breed regardless. That one's just incorrect. :P
Also for some reason cat coats patterns are in the species category? By that logic a tabby siamese would be a mixed breed.

oopsitripped said:
Maybe the cutoff could be based on how distinct the mix is? Like a huskamute isn't meaningfully different from a husky or a malamute as far as furry art goes, but the same isn't true for a labradoodle.

There's still like, an infinite number of potential mixed breeds though. Imo still better to tag them the way we do hybrids (so a labradoodle would be tagged poodle labrador mixed_breed)

oopsitripped said:
savannah_cat needs to be unimplicated from mixed_breed regardless. That one's just incorrect. :P
Also for some reason cat coats patterns are in the species category? By that logic a tabby siamese would be a mixed breed.

Totally agree re: savannah cat

I also don't like that cat patterns are in the species category, I think they should be general tags instead and renamed to *_markings or *_pattern or something. Calico_markings, tuxedo_markings, tabby_markings (or maybe that one should be aliased to striped_body), etc. That way they can be used for non-cats too. That should prob go in a new thread though

cloudpie said:
There's still like, an infinite number of potential mixed breeds though. Imo still better to tag them the way we do hybrids (so a labradoodle would be tagged poodle labrador mixed_breed)

Totally agree re: savannah cat

I also don't like that cat patterns are in the species category, I think they should be general tags instead and renamed to *_markings or *_pattern or something. Calico_markings, tuxedo_markings, tabby_markings (or maybe that one should be aliased to striped_body), etc. That way they can be used for non-cats too. That should prob go in a new thread though

calico_cat as a tag has always kind of bugged me because a calico is just a tortoiseshell_cat with white, yet they're completely disconnected...

The bulk update request #7059 is pending approval.

remove alias golden_laborador (0) -> golden_retriever (6034)

Reason: I still think it's insanity to allow a tag for every single one of the near-infinite possible dog, cat, horse, rabbit, cattle, sheep, chicken, etc. breed combinations, but regardless of if those are kept or not, this is still an incorrect alias. "Golden labrador" refers to a mix between a labrador and a golden_retriever.Part 2 under the current system:
imply golden_labrador -> mixed_breed
or alternatively if my above BUR does end up getting approved then this would be aliased to mixed_breed

Edit: wait, just realized this alias is a typo lmao. The correct spelling golden_labrador is not aliased.
So, golden_laborador should be aliased to golden_labrador and then that should imply mixed_breed. (but I'll still hold out hope to alias to mixed_breed instead-)

It should depend on how well-known/recognized a specific mix is. "Pomsky" seems to be pretty popular (though a significant portion are one character who, as far as I know, doesn't have a canon breed/mix). "Doodle" is a pretty well recognized term for poodle mixes, though it isn't use here. There's also a lot of grey area between "popular mixed breeds" and "new breeds" which is a whole can of worms.

But yeah savannah_cat should imply hybrid instead of mixed_breed.

regsmutt said:
(though a significant portion are one character who, as far as I know, doesn't have a canon breed/mix)

She is a pomsky according to wikipedia

cloudpie said:
She is a pomsky according to wikipedia

It's uncited. I don't know if it originated from the disney fan wiki or wikipedia itself but dubious, likely non-canon guesses of character breeds have been added to both.

regsmutt said:
It's uncited. I don't know if it originated from the disney fan wiki or wikipedia itself but dubious, likely non-canon guesses of character breeds have been added to both.

Oh, fair enough! I haven't seen the movie, just assumed that info was from the movie

nimphia said:
calico_cat as a tag has always kind of bugged me because a calico is just a tortoiseshell_cat with white, yet they're completely disconnected...

Imo calico_cat isnt even really a good tag to begin with. its a species tag but calico is not a species or breed of cat. its just a cat with a calico_pattern. but Calico+cat doesnt have a tag implication to calico_pattern either. even though a calico cat necessarily is calico patterned.