Heyo it's been brought to my attention that I've been doing a garbage job at tagging genders, so I wanted to ask a couple questions to clarify.

I've already been given this helpful chart over on my record: https://e621.net/user_record?user_id=167841, but most of my questions are about more SFW scenarios where genitals aren't included. Also it's kind of difficult to really tell male/female body types in Zootopia art. I'm going to make a bunch of statements and I'd like some review on whether I'm right or wrong in my judgment so I can get better at this.

If I've read the chart correctly: No genitals, no breasts, indeterminate body type = ambiguous, so in no particular order here goes:

#1 post #1571853 post #1575824 post #1599836 post #2019830 post #2018426 post #2009279 post #2009174
Characters are clothed, and no particularly distinguishing body characteristics, so ambiguous.

#2 post #1576674
Judy appears to have a bump in her shirt that can be assumed to be breasts, so I can tag her as female. However, Nick does not really have a particularly masculine or feminine body so I should tag as ambiguous.

#3 post #1598061
Crotch area is visible, but no genitals, tag with featureless_crotch. No breasts, but no particularly masculine or feminine characteristics, so ambiguous.

#4 post #2019915
Since chest and crotch are censored and the body type isn't distinct at all, ambiguous.

#5 post #2019481
Is Gideon's hair enough to tag as male, or should it be ambiguous?

#6 post #2019486
Can it be reasonably assumed that Finnick is a penetrating male in this case? Honey on the other hand has no visible genitals, breasts, or distinguishing body characteristics, so ambiguous?

#7 post #2009641
What about image context? Judy is holding a pregnancy test and Jack is visibly sweating as if he is the reason for the positive. Should I still tag ambiguous?

#8 post #2009262
Are these wolves' bodies "male enough" to warrant tagging male?

#9 post #2009259 post #1227836 post #1348654
Bears, as an example, don't really exhibit much sexual dimorphism when drawn in the "Zootopia style." Should all of these bears be ambiguous? Is the traditionally male clothing on the first image enough to tag as male?

I think that's it for now. I'll post more questions if I have them. This feels a bit counterintuitive to me so I'd like to get a bunch of definite answers as a measuring stick of sorts. Any input would be appreciated. Thank you for your time.

Most of your statements appear to be correct, though I don't believe that hair (5) and clothing (9) is enough to tag a character's gender.

If you'd like to discuss further on tagging issues, I'd suggest that you join the official discord server. Using discord would be especially helpful if you ever have small questions, or you would like advice on specific posts.

Also, when you upload an image could you please add the URL for the page where you found the image to the source field? It can be incredibly difficult to find the original source of an image just using the image itself and its direct image URL. While booru sources aren't the most helpful, they can sometimes be the only source that exists. A second of your time to copy over the URL of the page that you already have open can prevent a lot of inconvenience in the future.

you probably still need to think about it some more
ex of following the chart

• Nick in #1&2&3. Starting the chart: genintals? ->[non] -> move to [unk] -> breasts? [no] -> body type? -> Nick is considered masculine in appearance in all 1, 2, and 3 pics(face is more masculine than feminine and he has a tube-ish t-shape to his body frame). so [mas]. -> tag male

from the wiki: howto:tag_genders

Masculine (anthro, humanoid): Broad shoulders, thicker/flatter eyebrows, squared jaw, prominent "adams apple", body fat distributed mostly to lower torso ("beer gut"/"apple shape"), facial hair (mustache, beard), thicker arm and body hair.

Feminine (anthro, humanoid): Usually smaller in proportion to masculine characters, wide hips and pelvis, more arched eyebrows, smaller hands/feet, breasts, body fat distributed to lower/mid torso and thighs ("pear shape").

and then clues(well, it's in the wiki)

Other: Clothing choices, pose, dialogue, elaborate transformations.

tips for body:

• evaluate the torso. if you can discern the character's waist, notice the waist line: the slimmest area of a character's midsection between their shoulders and hips.
• masculine cases tend to have a t-shaped body, wider shoulders and slimmer hips, while feminine cases tend to have a more hourglass/pear shaped body, shoulders are more narrow and hips stick out more.
• in masculine cases the waist line is usually closer to just above the hip, inline with the top of the hip bone. in feminine cases the waist line is often higher, as high as the lower part of the rib cage.

• body fat percentage/distribution and muscle development are also considerations but that can be rather in depth/nuanced. what's stated in the wiki quote above about fat distribution is a decent reference.

feminine example: hips are as wide or wider than shoulders and the waist line is just below the rib cage (#4 = same description)
post #1798667

masculine example: shoulders are wider than hips, waist line is just above the top of the pelvis/hip bones (#3 = same description)
post #2013661

two common forms of ambiguous_gender

• anthro/humanoid with no traits: meh hips, meh shoulders, no/ambiguous/nonstandard waistline, meh facial features

post #1981341 post #2018953 post #2013508

• feral without genitals or context: ...yeah, I'm out of my depth here. probably go with ambiguous, I guess

post #2018935 post #2018831 post #2018904

gonna defer to the wiki again

Feral: Highly dependent on species. ... coloring, size, body shape. ... Artist's style may introduce some anthro/humanoid characteristics as well (arched eyebrows).

... well, there you have it.

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bonus points: understand the tag girly as applied to males
a male with feminine traits that has strong enough masculine traits to still be tagged male

example: post #2001801

the above character has a light, flouncy-ness to his appearance, body fat distributed mostly to his hips/thighs, and his hips are almost as wide as his shoulders -But- there are masculine facial features, pecs instead of breasts(probably the most weighted point in this pic), and his waistline can be assumed to be low, at about his hip bones. male, but girly

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aside: when a character is definitively ambiguously gendered in a picture by TWYS guidelines but has a cannon/"known" gender, right or wrong?, users have a noticeable tendency to tag the cannon gender anyways

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maybe a "how to tag ambiguous_gender" or "how to tag gender from solely body type and context/social cues" section in the how to tag gender wiki might be appropriate

bonghit840 said:
Heyo it's been brought to my attention that I've been doing a garbage job at tagging genders... it's kind of difficult to really tell male/female body types in Zootopia art. I'm going to make a bunch of statements and I'd like some review on whether I'm right or wrong in my judgment so I can get better at this.

most of the posts you used have had their gender tags tagged. my advice would be to check your work against that and keep trying until your tag guesses usually match what the community is tagging, the mods can't get mad at everyone(hopefully)

sneezer22 said:
keep trying until your tag guesses usually match what the community is tagging

I would advise against doing this since a lot of posts on the site are tagged incorrectly. I've seen quite a few instances where people assume that what they're doing is correct when it actually isn't.

If you want good examples to follow, stick to staff members or people who work on tagging projects.

JAKXXX3 said:
If you want good examples to follow, stick to staff members or people who work on tagging projects.

+1

best case scenario someone who tags rating:s zootopia posts

I'm not sure what to tell you except that for almost all of the examples you gave, I would have tagged the actual genders of the characters. The body shapes and secondary characteristics are sufficient to make a reasonable tag.

Hi, thank you all for your responses. I think I get it a bit better now.

@JAKXXX3
Thanks for the input, and yeah I'll make sure I put the URL for booru posts.

@sneezer22
Very detailed, thank you for all that info. I was really unsure about the the body types of Zootopia styled characters, but the examples really helped. The tips about shoulders vs hips and location of waistline were especially useful.

@leomole
That is what I've been doing until now, and it's why I got in trouble haha!

bonghit840 said:
Hi, thank you all for your responses. I think I get it a bit better now.

@JAKXXX3
Thanks for the input, and yeah I'll try and make sure I put the URL for booru posts.

@sneezer22
Very detailed, thank you for all that info. I was really unsure about the the body types of Zootopia styled characters, but the examples really helped. The tips about shoulders vs hips and location of waistline were especially useful.

@leomole
That's what I've been doing until now, and it's why I got in trouble haha!

no prob glad it was helpful, but tbh maybe take what I said with a grain of salt. for whatever reason I was browsing and took a second look at this post and the images you got a note for. the generic no context feral stuff I agree with(again not my forte) but then there are some pics like this one

post #2017032

to me that character is by far more masculine than feminine. hips aren't noticeable, shoulder's are wider than hips, fat is distributed to stomach and not hips or thighs, no mention of breasts at all to the point where the chest area looks like just pecs, there's actually chest hair, a tuft, sticking out of the v-neck of the character's shirt, no real indication of the feminine secondary fat layer that typically smooths out the body and appendages in even athletic females -> leaving a more masculine dude-ish appearance, and the waist line is at the hip bones. to me the face is more masculine as well and the clothing choices would also lean that way as a secondary reference. thing is you tagged male to begin with and it was retagged I'm guessing "site correctly?" as ambiguous.

perhaps with super rating:s content the site slants more towards a broader take on ambiguous to the point where as long as an anthro character is highly covered with no positive indications of breasts/genitals/super obvious social cues, the default is just to tag a character ambiguous. it feels like that's the feedback that's been given at least.

I stand by my assessment of character anatomy from my earlier comment above and it may very well apply to all posts but the more family friendly rating:s stuff on the site, but if it's been decided that those are the guidelines then even if it's in the wiki it may just mean that it's a locked wiki that hasn't been updated in too long.

sneezer22 said:
perhaps with super rating:s content the site slants more towards a broader take on ambiguous to the point where as long as an anthro character is highly covered with no positive indications of breasts/genitals/super obvious social cues, the default is just to tag a character ambiguous. it feels like that's the feedback that's been given at least.

I've taken another look as well and that does seem to be the case. I've checked a handful where they match the "masculine body type" as you described, but were retagged ambiguous anyways. I'm glad I wasn't the only one that thought they looked male haha! Thanks again for the input!

starting to think the universe might have something to do with it. it feels like a bunch of the stuff from zootopia and the movie itself really could almost be tagged semi-anthro. for instance, in the movie Bogo only has slightly anthro hand/hooves with 3 fingers, a standard cloven hoof and modified thumb for ease of use in the universe. besides being the art style it probably also helped with the transitions between savage and non-savage in the movie. savage being pretty indistinguishable from feral.

the same is probably the case for a lot of pokemon. they're getting tagged anthro but maybe semi-anthro would be better since some feral pokemon are somewhat anthro in their cannon form. that puts them in this weird grey area where they could be technically said to be both anthro and "cannon-feral". the tag "feral" only applies to fictional characters though when they resemble irl animals. that rule gets a bit messy when a character like lucario's cannon-feral appearance is anthro because you probably have to switch over to the pokemon universe's logic for what makes a pokemon look male or female but the site rules for describing body type, anthro/feral/taur/etc. still apply.

because of this, pictures from those universes might be getting placed under a more strict form of regulation when it comes to tagging sex. the same ones that seem to come up for purely feral characters where: no breasts + no bits -> no gender. the application probably isn't as strict but the undertow seems to still be there.

just a theory