Implicating ar-15_style_gun -> assault_rifle
Link to implication

Edit: more recent discussion begins at #forum_post_316614.

EDIT: The tag implication ar-15_style_gun -> assault_rifle (forum #279127) has been rejected by @NotMeNotYou.

This tickles my inner gun lover

+1

Would colt_carbine -> m4_carbine be ok in that list?

Semi-automatic-only rifles like the AR-15 are not assault rifles. You can get more information from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle#Characteristics .

vex714 said:
This tickles my inner gun lover

+1

Would colt_carbine -> m4_carbine be ok in that list?

Sure, why not? The list above is just a lot of the more common variants, and wasn't meant to be exhaustive.

felix_nermix said:
Semi-automatic-only rifles like the AR-15 are not assault rifles. You can get more information from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle#Characteristics .

This was addressed in the original post. While AR pattern rifles are not necessarily assault rifles, some of them are, and the level of detail needed to make that distinction is often simply not present in artwork. In light of that, another priority of tagging is to help people find what they are looking for, without requiring detailed knowledge in a particular subject.

People who are searching for assault_rifle are probably looking for ARs, AKs, or G3s, or FALs, or AUGs, i.e. reasonably modern-looking non-hunting combat rifles. Two of those could be considered battle rifles. How widely-known is that term compared to assault rifle? Does being able to fire fully-automatic or in bursts matter when the gun in the picture isn't firing at all, and there aren't enough other details to help tell them apart?

On the other side, people who understand the distinction should be able to understand why favoring common language over technical accuracy would be preferable in certain contexts. To say nothing of the nightmare that would be trying to manage the number of tags that could be made from all the different classifications and models and variants of guns that exist in the world.

Part of the goal of making this implication is to limit the potential tag sprawl, while putting people in the ballpark of what they're looking for.

felix_nermix said:
Semi-automatic-only rifles like the AR-15 are not assault rifles. You can get more information from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle#Characteristics .

I thought only the civie models of the AR-15 were semi? Military ones, if I remember correctly, had a select fire.

29446905 said:
People who are searching for assault_rifle are probably looking for ARs, AKs, or G3s, or FALs, or AUGs, i.e. reasonably modern-looking non-hunting combat rifles. Two of those could be considered battle rifles. How widely-known is that term compared to assault rifle? Does being able to fire fully-automatic or in bursts matter when the gun in the picture isn't firing at all, and there aren't enough other details to help tell them apart?

On the other side, people who understand the distinction should be able to understand why favoring common language over technical accuracy would be preferable in certain contexts. To say nothing of the nightmare that would be trying to manage the number of tags that could be made from all the different classifications and models and variants of guns that exist in the world.

Part of the goal of making this implication is to limit the potential tag sprawl, while putting people in the ballpark of what they're looking for.

You have a good point.

The bulk update request #52 has been rejected.

remove implication m16 (176) -> assault_rifle (1633)
remove implication m4 (148) -> assault_rifle (1633)
create alias ar-15 (303) -> ar-15_style_gun (0)
create alias m16 (176) -> m16_rifle (0)
mass update m16 -> m16_rifle
mass update m4 -> m4_carbine
mass update m4a1 -> m4_carbine
create alias m4 (148) -> m4_(disambiguation) (0)
create alias m4a1 (50) -> m4a1_(disambiguation) (0)
create implication m16_rifle (0) -> ar-15_style_gun (0)
create implication m4_carbine (0) -> ar-15_style_gun (0)
create implication ar-15_style_gun (0) -> assault_rifle (1633)

Reason: Explanation here: topic #25107
Restructuring tags related to the AR-15/M16 family of weapons, to prevent tag bloat and encourage better tagging going forward. Splitting off some tags for disambiguation.
Reviving this because some related implication requests (topic #26432, topic #26433) came up recently.

The following lines are meant to round up commonly-used names, and existing low-count or empty tags. The request system rejected them for not having the minimum 20 posts.

EDIT: The bulk update request #52 (forum #290819) has been rejected by @Rainbow_Dash.

I'm gonna go ahead and bump this one so that we can get some more feedback and a more recent take on it. How do people feel about this one?
I agree with your point that ARs should just have assault rifle tagged with them for simplicity and searchability, but I'm not sure if that's what you meant because you are requesting those implications be removed in favor of making it "ar-15 style gun" which seems to not be as helpful.

rainbow_dash said:
I'm gonna go ahead and bump this one so that we can get some more feedback and a more recent take on it. How do people feel about this one?
I agree with your point that ARs should just have assault rifle tagged with them for simplicity and searchability, but I'm not sure if that's what you meant because you are requesting those implications be removed in favor of making it "ar-15 style gun" which seems to not be as helpful.

I think the point was to imply ar-15_style_gun and have that imply assault rifle instead, which would set up an implication chain from m16_rifle to assault_rifle… though, I’m not really sure it’s necessary to have an intermediate umbrella tag for AR-platform weapons like that, especially with a fairly clunky tag like “ ar-15_style_gun” that I don’t think anyone would use on its own. I think I’d rather just have all the assault rifles imply assault_rifle directly, including ar-15 (even though it’s not technically an assault rifle, I don’t think it really matters when it comes to tagging art, since it’s so visually similar to assault rifles to begin with).

Well hello there, old thread.

is unintuitive and a mouthful, and was an attempt to solve two perennial problems:

• prevent as many nitpicking slapfights in the comments as possible; and
• prevent tag bloat from people making new tags for every variation, configuration, and combination under the sun.

It wouldn't be worth the cost in clarity and searchability, and probably wouldn't solve the problem anyway--just look at some of the replies in this thread.

Rather than trying to come up with convoluted catch-all tags, a tag group would probably be a better place to lay out the most commonly-depicted types, and all the name variations and little details that most people don't care about.

If anyone cares that much about the exact model of something they see, they can go ask the artist for whatever reference they used, and then post the answer in the comments.

_{<topic change>}

rainbow_dash said:
I agree with your point that ARs should just have assault rifle tagged with them for simplicity and searchability, but I'm not sure if that's what you meant because you are requesting those implications be removed in favor of making it "ar-15 style gun" which seems to not be as helpful.

scaliespe said:
I think the point was to imply ar-15_style_gun and have that imply assault rifle instead, which would set up an implication chain from m16_rifle to assault_rifle… though, I’m not really sure it’s necessary to have an intermediate umbrella tag for AR-platform weapons like that, especially with a fairly clunky tag like “ ar-15_style_gun” that I don’t think anyone would use on its own. I think I’d rather just have all the assault rifles imply assault_rifle directly, including ar-15 (even though it’s not technically an assault rifle, I don’t think it really matters when it comes to tagging art, since it’s so visually similar to assault rifles to begin with).

There does seem to be precedent for intermediate tags that aren't meant to be used in isolation:

Wiki page for hyper:
This tag is a metatag for hyper-sized characteristics. Avoid using this tag by itself whenever possible.

What do we think about starting off with just AR_rifle and AK_rifle as umbrella tags underneath assault_rifle, as a proof-of-concept? It would make it easier to include/exclude the two (arguably) most widespread visual styles when searching, and offer a way of gathering up all the assorted tags into smaller, more easily-managed subsets (without associating them with any specific model).

This is just meant as a illustration of the previous post, not a complete listing.
Lines with multiple tags can probably be aliased to the first tag in each list.

29446905 said:
There does seem to be precedent for intermediate tags that aren't meant to be used in isolation

Hyper definitely is used on its own when it comes to searching and blacklisting, which is what I was referring to. I doubt “ar-15_style_gun” would be used even for that. It would likely just contribute to tag bloat without contributing anything.

Your proposed AR and AK tags are an improvement, though there are still quite a few common assault rifles that don’t fit under either category (G36/G36c, for example). Those still need to be handled somehow… it might be better to just have all the assault rifles imply assault_rifle directly, and alias minor variations to the base model (ie. m16a1 and m16a2 aliased to m16).

Maybe I'm an asshole, but I'd probably just set it to "<nation>-style_<gun>" at this point and call it done. The problem with guns relative to vehicles or other things is that they can be permutated to such a small scale that pinning down even something as simple as the manufacturer versus the vague family of an individual gun can be completely impossible, it's like trying to slap a brand or model number on a knife or a laptop with no logos present. All just a fiddly pain in the ass and not really beneficial to site functionality. In situations where it's unclear, the generic/typically implied class tag would be used instead, or an "unknown_firearm" tag.

Russian-Style_Assault_Rifle (AK-Series and all descendants, variants, permutations, so on)
American-Style_Machine_Gun (SAW, BAR, and other large-frame automatic weapons)
German-Style_Submachine_Gun (UMP, MP5, yadda yadda)

Of course, then we run into the issue of what categories are usefully distinct (machine pistols as their own thing, or tagged as pistols or submachine guns? Heavy, Light, Squad Machine Guns? Anti-Materiel, Designated Marksman, Sniper Rifles?) enough to have their own categories, if we should consider origin or current headquarters of manufacturers, so on.

Tl;dr: Clusterfuck, I don't see a decent solution that isn't going to create conflict, arguing, and issues, but treating them like species tags may be the best if we really want to go full /k/. Otherwise, hazy general "these can all be mistaken for the same gun" tags are probably the most logical solution. Should probably use it as a basis for any other mechanical objects moving forward, regardless of what is chosen.

scaliespe said:
Hyper definitely is used on its own when it comes to searching and blacklisting, which is what I was referring to. I doubt “ar-15_style_gun” would be used even for that. It would likely just contribute to tag bloat without contributing anything.

Your proposed AR and AK tags are an improvement, though there are still quite a few common assault rifles that don’t fit under either category (G36/G36c, for example). Those still need to be handled somehow… it might be better to just have all the assault rifles imply assault_rifle directly, and alias minor variations to the base model (ie. m16a1 and m16a2 aliased to m16).

Agreed; AR_rifle and AK_rifle were deliberately selected as the only two categories to start off with, as an experiment to see how well the categories work in production, and because they would encompass a lot of redundant tags. Any solution that would work for these would also work for any gun designs with fewer variations like the G36.

Gunthink: the AR/AK historically have been openly-produced/-licensed/-copied (see also the 1911) leading to a commercial and national manufacturing free-for-all; guns like the G36 (or even the FAL), while inarguably popular, don't have quite the same degree of variation, and could safely imply assault_rifle directly for now (if and only if it becomes necessary and this turns out to be a good system, then G36_rifle and FAL_rifle could be considered).

votp said:
Maybe I'm an asshole, but I'd probably just set it to "<nation>-style_<gun>" at this point and call it done. The problem with guns relative to vehicles or other things is that they can be permutated to such a small scale that pinning down even something as simple as the manufacturer versus the vague family of an individual gun can be completely impossible, it's like trying to slap a brand or model number on a knife or a laptop with no logos present. All just a fiddly pain in the ass and not really beneficial to site functionality. In situations where it's unclear, the generic/typically implied class tag would be used instead, or an "unknown_firearm" tag.

Russian-Style_Assault_Rifle (AK-Series and all descendants, variants, permutations, so on)
American-Style_Machine_Gun (SAW, BAR, and other large-frame automatic weapons)
German-Style_Submachine_Gun (UMP, MP5, yadda yadda)

Of course, then we run into the issue of what categories are usefully distinct (machine pistols as their own thing, or tagged as pistols or submachine guns? Heavy, Light, Squad Machine Guns? Anti-Materiel, Designated Marksman, Sniper Rifles?) enough to have their own categories, if we should consider origin or current headquarters of manufacturers, so on.

Tl;dr: Clusterfuck, I don't see a decent solution that isn't going to create conflict, arguing, and issues, but treating them like species tags may be the best if we really want to go full /k/. Otherwise, hazy general "these can all be mistaken for the same gun" tags are probably the most logical solution. Should probably use it as a basis for any other mechanical objects moving forward, regardless of what is chosen.

Not an asshole, and definitely a clusterfuck. Going full /k/ likely wouldn't help anyone search for anything, given the 'lack of visual detail' problem mentioned in the first round of discussion.

As replied to scaliespe earlier in this post, limiting this to just the AR and AK at first would demonstrate the viability of this categorization system at scale, without having to commit fully to every other class of gun in existence. These two check the 'vague family of an individual gun', while also providing some more granularity for finding two of the more popular looks.

As an aside, anti-materiel, designated marksman, and sniper rifles could all be covered with scoped_gun, but that's for a separate discussion.

Well, those, while typically scoped, don’t necessarily have to be. They would still look considerably different from an assault rifle, however, due to the considerably longer barrel among other features.

I know it’s not technically accurate, but I think I’d prefer to use the sniper_rifle tag as an umbrella for all of those. They all (generally speaking) “look” like sniper rifles, plus that’s going to be most people’s first choice when searching for that kind of thing as opposed to “scoped gun,” AND, not to mention, almost any kind of gun can have a scope on it… even revolvers sometimes have them, so the tag could include virtually anything. I mean, we’re already calling AR-15s “assault rifles,” because we’re going by visuals rather than technicalities. It’s not like most people can tell the visual difference between a DMR and a sniper rifle.

Agreed that sniper_rifle is by far the most hassle-free choice--that aside was just brainstorming an idea for the point VoTP brought up.
scoped_gun could still have use when other guns are depicted with scopes (e.g. handguns, machine guns etc.) but it's an issue that's even smaller and less urgent than this topic as a whole, so it doesn't make much sense to bog down the new proposal with that discussion.

Just wanted to bump this to point out that stoner_rifle is a tag that appears to be in use. It would probably be a better umbrella tag for the AR group than AR_rifle. By the same token, we could use kalashnikov_rifle for the AK-style rifles, though that tag doesn't exist. There is a tag for kalashnikov, which is a copyright tag for some reason. That could probably be aliased to kalashnikov_rifle.

The bulk update request #52 (forum #290819) has been rejected by @Rainbow_Dash.

The tag implication ar-15_style_gun -> assault_rifle (forum #279127) has been rejected by @NotMeNotYou.