Dashie posted in the wrong thread lol https://e621.net/forum/show/74158

So what I'm seeing is people like the term androfem and we can easily alias and set up the current terms to it so there really isn't an issue in the search. Seem to be split about changing it though, what problems do you guys see if we do change it?

Aurali said:
what problems do you guys see if we do change it?

Other than the "problem" that androfem isn't immediately obvious, not much of anything.

How about when someone isn't immediatedly searching for dickgirl but instead is browsing, sees that, and wants to see more. Now they're trying to figure out how to search for it, skip right over 'androfem' because unless you actually understand Greek entymology spoonerized into English that term makes jack-all of sense and doesn't look like anything, they don't even know what the '?' even mean next to the tags nor even that they might be clickable nor that they should even need to start clicking them on anything they've never heard of.

You can't deny that this decision won't confuse the fuck out of a not-insignificant number of people who will never even consider registering to post here or even to read what is posted by others. What you have to decide is whether you care about fucking them over.

Last I checked, other than the belly-exposing takedown/DNP adherence, this site was focused on people being able to search and find stuff, which is not compatible with the eighty-fucking-million different points of view and oversensitivities about gender classification in this world right now.

Being sensitive to peoples' identities is important in the real world when dealing with real people on a real basis, not in a freaking database.

Suineder said:
Other than the "problem" that androfem isn't immediately obvious, not much of anything.

Dickgirl sounds like obvious but is misleading. I'd rather have something that forces user to look into wiki, than something that suggests wrong usage.

For example

post #335678
Girl? Yes.

post #335668
Girl with a dick? Yes.
Dickgirl? No.

@Foobaria
Good luck for new user in figuring what is dickgirl (and what is herm) now without looking to wiki.

Foobaria said:
How about when someone isn't immediatedly searching for dickgirl but instead is browsing, sees that, and wants to see more. Now they're trying to figure out how to search for it, skip right over 'androfem' because unless you actually understand Greek entymology spoonerized into English that term makes jack-all of sense and doesn't look like anything, they don't even know what the '?' even mean next to the tags nor even that they might be clickable nor that they should even need to start clicking them on anything they've never heard of.

Most people I know will attempt to look for "shemale" or "hermaphrodite" in this situation, not dickgirl. In the "real world", dick girl is a synonym for futanari, not shemale, which can or can not have a vagina, so we already have the wrong definition. Alternatively, with the tag categorization, it would be absolutely trivial to fix this by making a gender category.

Foobaria said:
Being sensitive to peoples' identities is important in the real world when dealing with real people on a real basis, not in a freaking database.

The database really don't care either way, in fact, it would be more then happy to take the problem off our hands and define gender for us, removing the need for having gender tags.

dickbitch

Aurali said:
The database really don't care either way, in fact, it would be more then happy to take the problem off our hands and define gender for us, removing the need for having gender tags.

The best thing to get rid of problems is to alias everything to something. Though probably there would still be tag warring.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
The best thing to get rid of problems is to alias everything to something. Though probably there would still be tag warring.

"lol @ something tag, this is obviously anything you feebs"

I am still dramatically opposed to this change for my previously mentioned reasons and because I think it's an enormous waste of time and resources to worry this much about such a stupid word, especially if we're going to change it to something as ridiculously nondescript as 'androfem'. But since it seems that Aurali is going to get her way no matter what and no other admins are going to speak up about this farce, do whatever you want.

Rocket_Corgi said:
"lol @ something tag, this is obviously anything you feebs"

I am still dramatically opposed to this change for my previously mentioned reasons and because I think it's an enormous waste of time and resources to worry this much about such a stupid word, especially if we're going to change it to something as ridiculously nondescript as 'androfem'. But since it seems that Aurali is going to get her way no matter what and no other admins are going to speak up about this farce, do whatever you want.

A large amount of people also define dickgirl as meaning a hermaphrodite. 1 2

Pretty much this is an issue that nobody will ever agree on.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
Dickgirl sounds like obvious but is misleading. I'd rather have something that forces user to look into wiki, than something that suggests wrong usage.

I agree. The quotation marks were there to suggest that it really isn't a problem.

EDIT:

Foobaria said:
spoonerized into English

You should know what a word means before you use it.

Jumping into this thread again briefly, I haven't read absolutely everything above, so sorry if I've repeated anyone here.

"Androfem" is a ridiculous word to use, in my opinion. I agree with a few others here, no one is EVER going to think to look at that tag if they want to find more dickgirl pictures. One argument I saw presented against using "dickgirl" was that it's not a common term, yet you're proposing that we use a word that's even LESS common?

I promise you "Androfem" means nothing to the vast, vast majority of e621's userbase.

Suppose they are a new user and discover that they have a blacklist. "Oh man! Now I can finally get rid of all those pictures of girls with dicks!" They find a dickgirl post and start looking, but there's no tag that stands out as being associated with dickgirls. Cue the user then going to an admin, the forum, or complaining directly in the comments of a dickgirl picture "How the hell do you blacklist pictures of girls with dicks?" Repeat for every user that wants to blacklist dickgirls.

It also sends a confusing message. "Why are dickgirls called androfems but cuntboys are just called cuntboys? Why not just call them dickgirls since that goes hand-in-hand with cuntboy?" Their guess would be as good as mine. Unless we're saying that "dickgirl" is offensive but "cuntboy" is not, which is even more ridiculous. I'd go so far as to say that any argument made against "dickgirl" here can also be applied to "cuntboy" too, yet no one is talking about changing that tag for some reason.

I'm not trying to say that I think "dickgirl" is a nice term, but what I'm seeing in this thread seems more like the pushing of an agenda rather than rational thought or careful consideration of the effects of the proposed changes.

I stand by my original stance that this is an issue that does not have anywhere NEAR the detrimental effects on this site to warrant THIS much time, debate, and frustration.

Forget this crap and focus on real problems that affect/frustrate far more users.

Anyways, I'm sure Aurali understands and agrees that such a big change to a gender tag should not be pushed forward without the knowledge and approval of the administrative team, and definitely should not happen without a lead admin to mandate and answer for the change.

Char said:
I promise you "Androfem" means nothing to the vast, vast majority of e621's userbase.

And as I argued it's better than using term that suggests wrong things.

Suppose they are a new user and discover that they have a blacklist. "Oh man! Now I can finally get rid of all those pictures of girls with dicks!" They find a dickgirl post and start looking, but there's no tag that stands out as being associated with dickgirls.

Really? androfem or andromorphic-female as it was suggested originally doesn't stand out as something that may be connected to gender/sex? Even without knowing what exactly it means.

It also sends a confusing message. "Why are dickgirls called androfems but cuntboys are just called cuntboys? Why not just call them dickgirls since that goes hand-in-hand with cuntboy?"

Almost as confusing as that we're tagging: pussy and penis and not vagina and penis, or pussy and cock

Really? These are the problems?

Char, you don't want me to worry about the big things addressing the website right now~

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
And as I argued it's better than using term that suggests wrong things.

I've not seen any complaints from anyone that was confused about what a "dickgirl" is on e621. And "cuntboy" also suggests wrong things; why is no one arguing to change that tag too?

Again, this entire thread is trying to address a problem that really doesn't exist. The fix/change would end up impacting far more people than are currently impacted by just leaving it alone.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
Really? androfem or andromorphic-female as it was suggested originally doesn't stand out as something that may be connected to gender/sex? Even without knowing what exactly it means.

Not nearly as much as dickgirl or shemale would, no. I'm not against "shemale", but "andromorphic-female" is ridiculous.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
Almost as confusing as that we're tagging: pussy and penis and not vagina and penis, or pussy and cock

Really? These are the problems?

The point I was making is that people seem really REALLY interested in changing one specific tag, despite the fact that another similar tag exists that SHOULD have the exact same "problems" as the tag that's being discussed. It doesn't make sense, it's not logical. If you're for changing dickgirl, you should be for changing cuntboy too. I'm not seeing that, which makes me think this is more of an emotional issue for a few people rather than a legitimate problem that the site has.

Char said:
I've not seen any complaints from anyone that was confused about what a "dickgirl" is on e621. And "cuntboy" also suggests wrong things; why is no one arguing to change that tag too?

I can't find a single piece of documentation that states cunt boy is incorrectly defined. I can find plenty relating dickgirls to hermaphrodites.

Again, this entire thread is trying to address a problem that really doesn't exist. The fix/change would end up impacting far more people than are currently impacted by just leaving it alone.

No this entire thread was me making a quip about how it "never happens", and it spiraled out from there.

Not nearly as much as dickgirl or shemale would, no. I'm not against "shemale", but "andromorphic-female" is ridiculous.

shemale at LEAST means "girl with a dick but no vagina". dickgirl the vagina is optional. It's wrong.

[/quote]The point I was making is that people seem really REALLY interested in changing one specific tag, despite the fact that another similar tag exists that SHOULD have the exact same "problems" as the tag that's being discussed. It doesn't make sense, it's not logical. If you're for changing dickgirl, you should be for changing cuntboy too. I'm not seeing that, which makes me think this is more of an emotional issue for a few people rather than a legitimate problem that the site has.
[/quote] 2 points here: Female to males have embraced the cuntboy term, the same hasn't applied the other way around, and 2, as I said before, no agenda, just making a quip and people expanded it from there. Besides.. no one confuses herms and cunt boys like.. ever.

Aurali said:
I can't find a single piece of documentation that states cunt boy is incorrectly defined. I can find plenty relating dickgirls to hermaphrodites.
...

https://e621.net/forum/show/62581
https://e621.net/forum/show/66203

Aurali said:
...
shemale at LEAST means "girl with a dick but no vagina". dickgirl the vagina is optional. It's wrong.
...

Shemale generally means a male who has gotten breast implants.
A pre-op transsexual as it were.

This has just as much possibility to offend people with dickgirl characters that aren't transsexual ans dickgirl does to offend people who think of it as a slur.

I feel sorry for the poor average users who visit this website just to look at pictures and don't care about politically correct porn.

"Oh, look at that. Pictures are all organized by these tag things! Neat! Finally an image site where I can easily find what I like!"

And then they miss out on a bunch of stuff they'd enjoy (boobs + dick) because they looked for herm (an almost ubiquitous term in Furry for meaning "male/female mix") and not hermaphrodite or dickgirl or shemale or androfem (lolwtf) or intersex or girlboyhumanoid. (I know aliases might take care of some of these. The point stands.)

I agree with what I feel Char was saying: It's important to remember why tags exist in the first place. I thought it was a practical thing; to organize and make it easier to find pictures with features you like. But maybe for some people it's more about making strict rules that all must follow and therefore forcing everyone to implicitly agree with you.

DrNick said:
I feel sorry for the poor average users who visit this website just to look at pictures and don't care about politically correct porn.

"Oh, look at that. Pictures are all organized by these tag things! Neat! Finally an image site where I can easily find what I like!"

And then they miss out on a bunch of stuff they'd enjoy (boobs + dick) because they looked for herm (an almost ubiquitous term in Furry for meaning "male/female mix")

a long.. long.. long time ago.. those were the only three acceptable sexes in the furry fandom, anything else was considered "special snowflake syndrome." Honestly I don't know why we even need names for all these things. I wouldn't even care if we remove all these genders and have the system make assumptions for us when we try searching for tags, but that would just make the taggers freak out. How many genders do we have tagged? 6? 7? and even then, we all make random assumptions.. I don't see a single sexless thing tagged as eunuch for example. but eh.. people want to have a word for every conversation, when traditionally there is only three..

If we had per-character tags, so one could simply search for female+penis in the same character, you could go back down to those three until the end of time.

Foobaria said:
If we had per-character tags, so one could simply search for female+penis in the same character, you could go back down to those three until the end of time.

We will have per character tags (I have to limit it to 5 characters per image though)

http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=dickgirl%2C+shemale#q=dickgirl%2C%20shemale&cmpt=q

According to Google, the highest regional interest for the term "Shemale" is in Somalia where as the highest interest for "Dickgirl" is from the United States. Therefore if you disagree with dickgirl you are a pirate.

yet according to that same graph, dickgirl it the least prefered term 100% of the time in 100% of countries.

Probably because it means futanari.

Aurali said:
yet according to that same graph, dickgirl it the least prefered term 100% of the time in 100% of countries.

Probably because it means futanari.

Which study and graph are you pulling this out of your backside from?

Princess_Celestia said:
Which study and graph are you pulling this out of your backside from?

If you would have looked up a bit like a sensible person, you'd have seen the one he /just/ linked to.

Hammie said:
Hurrah, a second warning on my record about the same comments.

Eeeps, and took 6 mins to load.

Hammie said:
Hurrah, a second warning on my record about the same comments.

Well, you were pretty argumentative about it. Don't fall into the drama trap and you won't run the risk of a neutral (lol) mark on your account.

I know, fine advice coming from someone like me, but take it on my personal experience.

Guys, because of you Aurali is going to have to make a separate thread again. :P

Hammie said:
I was happy to let it drop, and go about my business helping the site, more politely this time.
And then I get another user record warning.

You have two choices. You can either let it go and move on (it's only a neutral, not really a big deal), or make a stink about it.

The former is probably best, the latter will at least make a good show.

So then talk to Titan about it, since he's the one who gave you the mark. Not really sure what you're doing complaining about it in this thread for.

Hammie said:
Sent a PM.
I'm complaining about it here because:
A. This is where my original punishment for the same was discussed.
B. If I bring it up in a public manner it's more likely to actually get fixed because most Admins that's I've dealt with are reluctant to remove their own user record additions. To be fair, I haven't had any issues to deal with Titan yet, but I figured it wouldn't hurt.

And you are complaining about this particular problem in topic about whether dickgirl tag should be changed because...?

Hammie said:
The discussion about changing the dickgirl tag was a result of the comments I am being punished for.
That's why this thread exists, and is/was part of the discussion.

No, this thread exists for dickgirl discussion. Thread for TWYS issues is forum #73960. I know that offtopic is rather common on forum, but making offtopic in thread that was split, and making change of topic back to the original topic from which it was split is a bit too much IMO.

Ignore the above.
Heard back from Titan.
I am un-complaining.