Topic: TWYS dispute on post #721984 and its child posts

Posted under Tag/Wiki Projects and Questions

post #721984 has twice had the male/ambiguous_gender tag replaced with the male/male tag.

Under the twys policy, I believe this to be incorrect due to the feminine look (wide hips, pink fur, etc.) of the character and the lack of explicit parts to determine the gender.

People who dispute this cite reasons based on the tag history of the character in question, when it is generally accepted that characters can have mixed tags (see post #721994 and post #721990).

I myself originally tagged it as male/female but then changed it when I realised I was making an assumption based on my preferences.

Could I get an opinion from someone with authority on this?

Updated by TheHuskyK9

blakashawa said:
post #721984 has twice had the male/ambiguous_gender tag replaced with the male/male tag.

Under the twys policy, I believe this to be incorrect due to the feminine look (wide hips, pink fur, etc.) of the character and the lack of explicit parts to determine the gender.

People who dispute this cite reasons based on the tag history of the character in question, when it is generally accepted that characters can have mixed tags (see post #721994 and post #721990).

I myself originally tagged it as male/female but then changed it when I realised I was making an assumption based on my preferences.

Could I get an opinion from someone with authority on this?

Tag What You See is, in my experience, rubbish compared to Tag What The Artist Said. Rarely anyone tags what they see anymore.

Going to the source, the character is a femboy. And, just see if TWYS could actually work in this scenario, I ran through the animation. For a few frames during the cum animation, the head is far back enough to reveal the chest. No breasts, therefore it is a masculine-sexed character. We can't be absolutely sure that it's not a cuntboy or maleherm, but we do know that the character is a male-aligned individual, so we should tag appropriately.

Updated by anonymous

ShylokVakarian said:
the head is far back enough to reveal the chest. No breasts, therefore it is a masculine-sexed character

you cannot see if character has breasts or not from that angle. if the character had breasts, they would hang out of view.

Updated by anonymous

Mutisija said:
you cannot see if character has breasts or not from that angle. if the character had breasts, they would hang out of view.

Boobs do not defy gravity. They swing, and they swing low. The breasts would be showing from that angle. Not very much of it would be shown, but enough to know it's a pair of breasteses (read: breh-stah-ceez)

EDIT: I'll clarify. Boobs can move in almost any direction. This is not a straight top-down perspective, this is angled just enough for me to confirm that this is indeed a male.

And again, the TWYS rule is really only an actual rule for new members, in my experience. For more experienced members, it's more lax, instead being more of an exercise in Search Psychology.

EDIT2:
post #723443

Updated by anonymous

ShylokVakarian said:
Boobs do not defy gravity. They swing, and they swing low. The breasts would be showing from that angle. Not very much of it would be shown, but enough to know it's a pair of breasteses (read: breh-stah-ceez)

EDIT: I'll clarify. Boobs can move in almost any direction. This is not a straight top-down perspective, this is angled just enough for me to confirm that this is indeed a male.

first off, breasts are not located on collar bone. they are located in middle section of chest which is not visible in that flash at all. also breasts do not swing that much unless they are big

And again, the TWYS rule is really only an actual rule for new members, in my experience. For more experienced members, it's more lax, instead being more of an exercise in Search Psychology.

i have been here almost 5 years. its not just new user thing. in fact it seems like new users are a lot worse at following this rule than old users.

EDIT2:
post #723443

if i was you, i would not use e6 as image hosting site to host a single image you want to use on argument. i cannot see that picture because it was deleted.

Updated by anonymous

ShylokVakarian said:
Tag What You See is, in my experience, rubbish compared to Tag What The Artist Said. Rarely anyone tags what they see anymore.

These people will get banned.

ShylokVakarian said:
Boobs do not defy gravity. They swing, and they swing low. The breasts would be showing from that angle. Not very much of it would be shown, but enough to know it's a pair of breasteses (read: breh-stah-ceez)

They wouldn't show from that angle for anything below a D, the pink bear isn't moving enough to cause them to swing around for any noticeable amount.

Thus, male/ambiguous.

ShylokVakarian said:
EDIT: I'll clarify. Boobs can move in almost any direction. This is not a straight top-down perspective, this is angled just enough for me to confirm that this is indeed a male.

And again, the TWYS rule is really only an actual rule for new members, in my experience. For more experienced members, it's more lax, instead being more of an exercise in Search Psychology.

You're here for a barely a year with 155 tag edits, I don't think you have a good overview what an "experienced user" is.

More importantly, we have banned people before and we will continue to ban people for going against TWYS, I highly recommend you adhere to the rules from here on out.

ShylokVakarian said:
EDIT2:
post #723443

Next time use imgur or any other image host for things like that.

Updated by anonymous

>inb4 I get banned from a single comment
Honestly, the way TWYS is written, nobody follows it. You literally wouldn't be able to tag the artist otherwise, unless the signature is on it, and can be distinguished as that artist's particular signature. The sole exception to TWYS is for character names only, not for artist or species (commonly done anyways).

I guess what I mean is the article is poorly written, so technically, no one's actually following it at all times. It's a guideline, and there are so many nuances to it that new members just don't get. Hell, I'm still learning them all.

Not trying to make a huge deal about it, but I still want to address that it's pretty restrictive as it's written at the moment for it to be a definitive law of some sort that must be followed at all times.

And alright, I get it, it's too ambiguous to call male.

Updated by anonymous

ShylokVakarian said:
>inb4 I get banned from a single comment
Honestly, the way TWYS is written, nobody follows it. You literally wouldn't be able to tag the artist otherwise, unless the signature is on it, and can be distinguished as that artist's particular signature. The sole exception to TWYS is for character names only, not for artist or species (commonly done anyways).

I guess what I mean is the article is poorly written, so technically, no one's actually following it at all times.

are we even using same site? because in the e6 im using, majority of users follow the rule and its very clear for them. only exceptions are some newbies and irregular users who do not know that the rule exists. and those exceptions get banned if they refuse to learn it.

Updated by anonymous

Mutisija said:
are we even using same site? because in the e6 im using, majority of users follow the rule and its very clear for them. only exceptions are some newbies and irregular users who do not know that the rule exists. and those exceptions get banned if they refuse to learn it and continue mistagging after getting told to not do it.

>You wouldn't be able to tag the artist otherwise, unless the signature is on it, and can be distinguished as that artist's particular signature. The sole exception to TWYS is for character names only, not for artist or species (commonly done anyways).

Not trying to argue, it's just that people keep missing the important parts of what I'm trying to say. My fault for being level 12 in Social Skills.

EDIT: All I'm trying to say is that the exception for artists needs to be added, as there's no way to determine artist from the picture alone 100% of the time.

Other than that, nothing more to say.

Yes, I get pretty nitpicky, I apologize for that.

Updated by anonymous

Genjar

Former Staff

ShylokVakarian said:
>You wouldn't be able to tag the artist otherwise, unless the signature is on it, and can be distinguished as that artist's particular signature. The sole exception to TWYS is for character names only, not for artist or species (commonly done anyways).

TWYS rules :
The only outside information that can be used to tag a post is the year the art was made and the artist or obvious character's name.

It's poorly worded, but it's there.

Updated by anonymous

Genjar said:
It's poorly worded, but it's there.

Yeah, that's my main nitpick, TWYS is poorly worded/organized.

That's all I want to say on the issue. Sorry I argued a lot, I just seem to like arguing.

Updated by anonymous

ShylokVakarian said:
Yeah, that's my main nitpick, TWYS is poorly worded/organized.

The rule itself is excellent. That article might need a rewrite tho, to make it more clear for newbies.

Updated by anonymous

Peekaboo said:
The rule itself is excellent. That article might need a rewrite tho, to make it more clear for newbies.

Confused the hell out of me. Hard to tell what's an exception and what's not. Is copyright an exception? Apparently, species is kind of but not really an exception, and it never explicitly mentions artist is an exception, and it gets messy. Like the argument I just had.

If I can manage to not get banned for this, fine by me. Better than how I usually do on forums and stuff.

Updated by anonymous

ShylokVakarian said:
Confused the hell out of me. Hard to tell what's an exception and what's not. Is copyright an exception?

"The special exception below to TWYS is ONLY for tagging character NAMES. YOU CAN NOT USE EXTERNAL INFORMATION TO TAG GENDER, SPECIES, OR VIRTUALLY ANYTHING ELSE."

I don't see how you could be confused by that.
Anyhow, I'm late to the thread, so I'll stop.

Updated by anonymous

ShylokVakarian said:
If I can manage to not get banned for this, fine by me. Better than how I usually do on forums and stuff.

You got a neutral record from an admin about this, which means you just got a warning. You haven't done anything that comes across as sabotage/repeated ignorance (yet).

Updated by anonymous

ShylokVakarian said:
>You wouldn't be able to tag the artist otherwise, unless the signature is on it, and can be distinguished as that artist's particular signature. The sole exception to TWYS is for character names only, not for artist or species (commonly done anyways).

EDIT: All I'm trying to say is that the exception for artists needs to be added, as there's no way to determine artist from the picture alone 100% of the time.

this is why we have sources

Updated by anonymous

Genjar

Former Staff

Peekaboo said:
"The special exception below to TWYS is ONLY for tagging character NAMES. YOU CAN NOT USE EXTERNAL INFORMATION TO TAG GENDER, SPECIES, OR VIRTUALLY ANYTHING ELSE."

I don't see how you could be confused by that.

Leeway may be given to hybrid characters, as the components of the species by which they are comprised are not always obvious.

That's kind of vague, and I've seen some uploaders bend that way too far for their hybrid characters.

Anyway, yeah, it could use some editing. Same goes for some other protected pages, such as help:ratings. Nobody's edited that in years and it's missing a lot of information on how we actually rate the posts now.

Even if I could (which I can't), I certainly wouldn't touch those myself. My English is atrocious and I doubt that I could clarify them.

Updated by anonymous

Knotty_Curls said:
this is why we have sources

This argument is over, can we move on, please?

Peekaboo said:
"The special exception below to TWYS is ONLY for tagging character NAMES. YOU CAN NOT USE EXTERNAL INFORMATION TO TAG GENDER, SPECIES, OR VIRTUALLY ANYTHING ELSE."

I don't see how you could be confused by that.
Anyhow, I'm late to the thread, so I'll stop.

Yes, and then it mentions a little later about using the source info in the case of hybrid species, and earlier, it mentions the use of source info for artist and year. And I think we can safely agree that we wouldn't be using copyright tags if it weren't for outside information.

Bottom line is, the article (maybe the main pages on the wiki itself) is badly in need of a rewrite. Nothing more needs to be said. Let's let this hellish thread fade into obscurity.

Updated by anonymous

ShylokVakarian said:
Bottom line is, the article (maybe the main pages on the wiki itself) is badly in need of a rewrite. Nothing more needs to be said. Let's let this hellish thread fade into obscurity.

If you want to discuss the TWYS article itself, I recommend you start a new thread or join a related thread; this thread's original purpose has been fulfilled.

Updated by anonymous

Peekaboo said:
The rule itself is excellent. That article might need a rewrite tho, to make it more clear for newbies.

The rule itself is garbage.

Updated by anonymous

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