post #755631

Hey peeps, we need to have a consensus on which tag to use when tagging Toriel, Asgore, etc.

In the game, they are referred as Boss Monsters but at a first glance, they look like goats. Anatomy-wise, they're technically not goats but yeah, more input is needed on this. Which do you guys prefer?

Why don't we have both?

My initial impression on the Boss_Monster tag is that it was a [seemingly redundant] tag that could be used for major enemies from any video game; That kind of vagueness may cause users to inadvertently tag characters outside of Undertale as such.

I'm pretty sure most people would identify the aforementioned characters as anthro goats upon first seeing them. Seems more intuitive and appropriate.

Possibly have the two in question (Toriel amd Asgore) infer boss monster if needed, but for searching purposes on e6, I imagine the goat tag is likely infinitely more useful for people. The boss monster thing would just make a vocal minority happy. :o

I don't see why we couldn't use both.

Just use goat and monster.

boss_monster seems meaningless

I thought they were goat monsters or goat demons?

Maybe monster_(undertale) would be a relevant, "agnostic" way to connect such disparate characters as the dreemurrs, catburger, monster kid, sans and tsunderplane? In addition to stuff like goat, scalie, living_aircraft, skeleton etc. that is

Knotty_Curls said:
Just use goat and monster.

boss_monster seems meaningless

No, not really. That would be like saying all of the Monster Hunter species tags are meaningless.

I vote for goat and boss_monster, and imply the latter to monster.

lets imply boss_monster to goat or at least caprine

I like Circeus's solution. An easy fix for an arbitrary species name.

If there are other franchise-specific species tags, as with Monster Hunter, maybe we should include the franchise suffix on those as well.

As for implying any specific animal species to boss_monster, that would probably be a bad idea, seeing as they might be humanized.

Knotty_Curls said:
Just use goat and monster.

boss_monster seems meaningless

Boss monsters are literally what they are called in the game, referring to Toriel and Asgore specifically (and thus you could extrapolate this to include Asriel). We already accommodate a lot of lore by allowing specific tags provided they are linked with more widely used tags like canine, dragon, etc, given appearance. Consider things like Pokemon, Digimon, and the like.

Ratte said:
Boss monsters are literally what they are called in the game, referring to Toriel and Asgore specifically (and thus you could extrapolate this to include Asriel).

The boss monster tag might be problematic if Toby makes more games in the same setting, though. Since it was implied that it's a category and not all of them look like Toriel/Asgore.

I've even seen some arguments about whether Sans counts as a boss monster or not.

Circeus said:
I thought they were goat monsters or goat demons?

Yep, it's another of Toby's puns: Toriel is a nanny goat.

Circeus said:
Maybe monster_(undertale) would be a relevant, "agnostic" way to connect such disparate characters as the dreemurrs, catburger, monster kid, sans and tsunderplane? In addition to stuff like goat, scalie, living_aircraft, skeleton etc. that is

Plus one for this. Currently some users are tagging them all as monsters, which dilutes the usefulness of that tag. Most of them don't actually look monstrous enough to be tagged as such.

Moving them over to monster_(undertale) might be a good compromise.

(Pokemon, Digimon and Monster Hunter tend to have the same problem: those often get tagged as monster purely because of the franchise name, instead of the looks.)

I don't really see any problem with a boss monster species tag as long as the images are also still tagged with goat. For anybody that doesn't know anything about Undertale, they're pretty much a goat.

So everyone is set with both?

I vote goat combined with boss_monster_(undertale) to avoid possible mistaggings. And if it turns out Toby makes more games, it can be aliased to boss_monster_(toby_fox) easily enough.

Clawdragons said:
I vote goat combined with boss_monster_(undertale) to avoid possible mistaggings. And if it turns out Toby makes more games, it can be aliased to boss_monster_(toby_fox) easily enough.

I think he might make a sequel after all.

So everyone is set with both?

I don't agree with both. I honestly don't see why anyone else is either.

At first glance, they look like cows to me and there is no indication that they ARE goats. They have paws and manes: the only goat-like thing about them is their horns which could be indicative of another animal. The only reason people are zero-ing in on goat instead of say, oxen or cows or literally any OTHER similarly horned goat creature is due to the majority saying so and everyone just going "ok" without any critical thought.

There's nothing even SUBTLY goat-like about these creatures that can't be attributed to another creature (not even the ears, which are more bunny-like to me), let alone overtly, so what's the deal? Why goat? Why not oxen/cows? The stocky anatomy and large horns look more similar to them anyway.

Furthermore, if we're just tagging what we see, would anyone be opposed to me tagging bowser as a dragon? Or a turtle? He clearly has a shell and breathes fire.

I believe the Boss Monster tag should be linked to the caprine Tag and the boss monster tag to the monster tag. Asriel, Toriel, and Asriel are not in a "category", btw, the game (gerson specifically) says they are specific TYPE of monster. They're more of a subspecies, like a breed of dog.

I think we should honor the Compromise i posed: Caprine and Boss Monster, but not goat. Goat is too specific and there's really no telling what these creatures are. Caprine includes several different animals these things could be based on (cows, antelope, goats, ect.).

Also, I like the distinguishing monsters and monsters_(undertale) tag, indeed those monsters really DONT look very monstrous.

Determinator said:

again, you are basically the only one here who doesnt think that they look like goats. or are you insisting that the tagging should be based on what YOU think and not on what majority of people on this site thinks

Mutisija said:
again, you are basically the only one here who doesnt think that they look like goats. or are you insisting that the tagging should be based on what YOU think and not on what majority of people on this site thinks

No, I'm wondering why people are insisting they are goats in the first place. I've yet to get an answer even after posing the question several times. I mean, I think I KNOW why, but I'd like to hear it from you all.

Tag what you see is the rule. Where do you see goat? The horns aren't a good enough claim, and I've told you all why.

Me being the only one doesn't make me wrong and you all being the majority doesn't make you right.

I like my compromise: you guys get keep the caprine tag, I put the boss monster tag with it. One for one: it's even and the former implies goat anyway without being so specific or final when it could be and other people see other things. I've seen people off sight who see lions, rabbits, cows, dragons even.

But...While I'll never be ok with it, if you guys are that adamant about saying there are goats where there aren't any, go ahead and keep the tag. I'm tired of all this fighting and repeating myself >_>

Determinator said:
No, I'm wondering why people are insisting they are goats in the first place. I've yet to get an answer even after posing the question several times. I mean, I think I KNOW why, but I'd like to hear it from you all.

Tag what you see is the rule. Where do you see goat? The horns aren't a good enough claim, and I've told you all why.

Me being the only one doesn't make me wrong and you all being the majority doesn't make you right.

I like my compromise: you guys get keep the caprine tag, I put the boss monster tag with it. One for one: it's even and the former implies goat anyway without being so specific or final when it could be and other people see other things. I've seen people off sight who see lions, rabbits, cows, dragons even.

But...While I'll never be ok with it, if you guys are that adamant about saying there are goats where there aren't any, go ahead and keep the tag. I'm tired of all this fighting and repeating myself >_>

I mean, just compare your avatar to this. The horns, the nose especially, the long ears (although Asgore's are a bit longer and floppier, they're still similar).

TonyLemur said:
I mean, just compare your avatar to this. The horns, the nose especially, the long ears (although Asgore's are a bit longer and floppier, they're still similar).

I don't see it. My avatar gives me a very leonine/bovine vibe and that's just one artist depiction. They're bound to look different from artist to artist.

Nonetheless:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/iC5a3eTEY6s/hqdefault.jpg these ears are close, the bunny ears
the horns, again, are more oxen like.
Asgore's mane and Toriel's completely lack of hair besides her primary fur nods to a lion.
Along with those, I'm still waiting to see how you all explain these paws on these "goats". No anthro goats have paws :/

Again, caprine implies goat, and I'm fine with that tag.

TonyLemur said:
I mean, just compare your avatar to this. The horns, the nose especially, the long ears (although Asgore's are a bit longer and floppier, they're still similar).

Some goats have longer, floppier ears. Like so.

A bit far to the left, but we could also call them Chimeras.

They clearly have lion and goat features and what a chimera is isn't set it in stone (it's *any* MONSTROUS combination of animal, and these are monsters, though lion, goat, and serpent is the usual combination. Again, not set in stone.). Plus Chimeras breathe fire and both Toriel and Asgore have fire based abilities. Then, of course, neither are real.

Just a thought.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Cute_Jersey_Cow.jpg Look more like Toriel than any goat, imo. Even the horns are positioned correctly.

Loads of anthropomorphized animals have features inconsistent with their feral counterparts. Whatever weird anatomy the characters have, whether it be birds with external genitalia or rabbits with four-toed paws, is ultimately up to the artist. I wouldn't discredit a dog's species just because it had human feet, or any inconsistent feature for that matter. If it looks like a dog, it's going to be tagged as a dog.

With a lot of art, and especially with anthros, a lot of it is drawn symbolically rather than exact. We will see key features and think "oh, that's X species." We're not going to tag every post with every applicable species tag because of nuanced anatomical features - we're ultimately an art hosting site, not a taxonomy page.

Anthro art can and should be better. I hate saying it's up to the artist, but I don't disagree with it.

post #610271

As for the boss_monster tag or whatever it is, Circeus has the right idea already. Include a franchise suffix for franchise-specific species.

boss_monster_(undertale)

Knotty_Curls said:
Loads of anthropomorphized animals have features inconsistent with their feral counterparts. Whatever weird anatomy the characters have, whether it be birds with external genitalia or rabbits with four-toed paws, is ultimately up to the artist. I wouldn't discredit a dog's species just because it had human feet, or any inconsistent feature for that matter. If it looks like a dog, it's going to be tagged as a dog.

With a lot of art, and especially with anthros, a lot of it is drawn symbolically rather than exact. We will see key features and think "oh, that's X species." We're not going to tag every post with every applicable species tag because of nuanced anatomical features - we're ultimately an art hosting site, not a taxonomy page.

Anthro art can and should be better. I hate saying it's up to the artist, but I don't disagree with it.

post #610271

As for the boss_monster tag or whatever it is, Circeus has the right idea already. Include a franchise suffix for franchise-specific species.

boss_monster_(undertale)

Maybe so but they're not THAT wildly innacurate. Most people dont know or care that birds usually dont have external junk and i dont think anyone would notice and extra paw-toe on an animal that usually has paws. Human feet on an animal would actually fall in line with them being anthropomorphic But paws in place of hooves? Manes? That doesn't translate into "goat" for me.

And that picture I always interpreted as humor -- most artist I've seen, even obscure ones, (except one with a certain dalmatian OC I could name...) do a good job of distinguishing species.

If most people don't know or care about those things, then why should we care if Toriel has paws or if Asgore has a stylish mane?

you realize you're agreeing with what I'm saying, right?

Determinator said:
Maybe so but they're not THAT wildly innacurate. Most people dont know or care that birds usually dont have external junk and i dont think anyone would notice and extra paw-toe on an animal that usually has paws. Human feet on an animal would actually fall in line with them being anthropomorphic But paws in place of hooves? Manes? That doesn't translate into "goat" for me.

honestly that doesnt even look like mane. it looks like long hair. people dont give a shit what kind of feet animals actually have. people give paws for anything ranging from sharks to dragons. long hair and not accurate hands and feet are NOT enough to define that they cannot be goats.
if we actually follow that logic, majority of anthros here cannot be tagged as what species they are tagged as now because barely anyone gives a single flying fuck about what are anatomically correct feet and hairstyle for this animal. again i'd like to bring up this image:

post #754596

you are okay with tagging it as shark because of the fin and snout. yet it fills every single thing you have used as argument here.

-sharks do not have legs or arms. yet you are okay with this image getting tagged as shark even tho you keep insisting that wrong kind of feet are a reason why boss monsters cannot be tagged as goat.

-sharks do not have hair at all. yet you are okay with this image getting tagged as shark even tho you keep insisting that wrong kind of hair is a reason why boss monsters cannot be tagged as goat.

-sharks do not have heads shaped like that. honestly it looks honestly a bit like mix of dolphin's and shark's snout rather than shark's snout. yet you are okay with this image getting tagged as shark even tho you keep insisting that wrong kind face shape is a reason why boss monsters cannot be tagged as goat.

I know almost nothing about the game, but here's what I've been able to gather:

• Toriel is referred to as goatmom by fans, and is considered goat-like by most people (some see cow, but that seems to be the minority)
• Toriel is very close to taurus, which is of Latin origin, and means bull
• Toriel stopped wearing a muu-muu because she thought everyone was calling her a cow
• There's no official answer besides "boss monster"
• They look caprine-like to me
• Pic unrelated]

Determinator said:
stuff

Ah the vocal minority I spoke of earlier.

Bottom line, 99% of people see them as goat monsters, and the is E6, where goat is much more useful for searching then a tag no one will ever use. They are willing to do both, so the boss_monster tag would exist, but the tag people would use for searching would exist as well

CamKitty said:
Ah the vocal minority I spoke of earlier.

Bottom line, 99% of people see them as goat monsters if thats the direction we go in, and the is E6, where goat is much more useful for searching then a tag no one will ever use. They are willing to do both, so the boss_monster tag would exist, but the tag people would use for searching would exist as well

I don't believe we should be mixing "goat" monsters with normal anthro goats, but I guess the end of all decision is up to you. My vote is firmly with Boss_Monster and Caprine, unless someone can change my mind, which I doubt.

I would suggest at least separating them as "Goat_(Undertale)" if thats the route we go.

Mutisija said:
Words

Asgore has hair on his fur around his head, neck, and facw and Toriel just has her primary fur. How is that NOT a mane? I could point out SEVERAL animals that have manes while the females don't, lions being the most obvious example of that.

And no they don't. They don't give horses, goats, and bulls paws because these animals CLEARLY have hooves. Dragons don't exist, so who really cares how people depict them? If they say it's a dragon, who could really argue?

And I already spoke about the shark picture to you -- what I said is actually in the message you responded to -- and I'm not going to repeat myself.

So what's the final consensus for tagging these characters?

I would hope both at least, as I would never use "boss monster" to look for said characters

CamKitty said:
I would hope both at least, as I would never use "boss monster" to look for said characters

I'm in the same boat, I could never see myself using boss monster as a term. If I want to see Toriel I'm gonna type goat followed by undertale.

pretty much everyone except one seems to think that tagging them as boss monster and goat would be best option.

boss_monster and goat it is then.

As for any boss_monster -> species implications, I think it would be a good idea to leave them off for now, and instead handle them on a case-by-case basis (similar to how Pokemon are handled).

Alrighty, good job team! Gimme five! ( ・∀・)/

\( ・∀・)

Sorry for being late to the party, but I'm for aliasing boss_moster to invalid_tag. Definition of boss_monster in Undertale is a type of monster whose soul will temporarily be able to exist outside of its body after it has died. It's not really something that can be tagged with TWYS rules.

Kyubii said:
Why don't we have both?

The fact that you didn't use the GIF version makes you instantly fail.

*looks at the consensus*
:/
People seem to be taking to the boss monster tag pretty well but...
Well, whatever. Nevermind.

Queen_Tyr'ahnee said:
I'm in the same boat, I could never see myself using boss monster as a term. If I want to see Toriel I'm gonna type goat followed by undertale.

Or, y'know, you could just type in "Toriel" :/