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I disagree with Ratte locking the tags on this post claiming this is M/F since there are no breasts, and the groin isn't visible. Even the original post labels it as "gay", so it should be either male/male or male/ambiguous, since there is no concrete evidence of the character being a female.
Rally said: I disagree with Ratte locking the tags on this post claiming this is M/F since there are no breasts, and the groin isn't visible. Even the original post labels it as "gay", so it should be either male/male or male/ambiguous, since there is no concrete evidence of the character being a female.
True. Even though we have seen Reggie before and he is obviously a male and not like Rikki who has multiple gender forms.
furryloves said: True. Even though we have seen Reggie before and he is obviously a male and not like Rikki who has multiple gender forms.
dunno why anyone would downvote you guys for just saying the truth i would remove the tag myself but then again knowing my luck there will be something against me no genitals are visible so it should be by default either male/ambigious or just M/M
Torrin said: dunno why anyone would downvote you guys for just saying the truth i would remove the tag myself but then again knowing my luck there will be something against me no genitals are visible so it should be by default either male/ambigious or just M/M
I can't even change it. Not only is it MY work, but I POSTED IT
Shatari said: The stupid "Tag what you see" rule means that the Admins get to decide what your character's gender is for you, sadly.
I'm pretty sure the artist personally coming on here and saying the tags are wrong ought to override the asinine rules, especially when it's a rule with a long history of causing stupid problems. But that would make too much fucking sense, I guess.
Mairo said: I guess it's time to make the comment I guess as other staff hasn't tried to untie the situation.
This is booru. This isn't your personal art gallery. That means whoever uploads the content is completely irrelevant because all and every single user has similar control over the upload. Everyone has the same edit button and you don't have the power to delete this post directly either.
Tagging here is objectively based on what can be seen on the image. If you posted baby and said that it's actually 1000 years old elder, it would still be tagged as baby.
Please don't make up non-exsisting tags. If you want to signify something that cannot be done with tags, use description field. You can also create character bio into wiki so users are free to search character specifically, knowing them to be male.
If you don't want characters to be tagged as female, then don't make them look completely like female.
Text and audio is external information, so these wouldn't effect the tagging in any way. And no, we don't need another lizardlars situation.
You know what's not a made up tag? Male.
You know what Reggie (hey what a masculine name) isn't? Female.
Lord_Eggplant said: ambiguous gender tag is intended for characters with virtually no visible gender indicators. extremely feminine character is not ambiguous.
i don't see any visible genitalia or breasts, so i'm pretty sure that warrants ambiguous gender... it's been tagged that way on plenty of other girly male images, so why is this the exception?
Also to the janitor up there: So I guess he has never heard of the following: Femboys traps cunt boys males. or tits.
What is the biggest thing that seperates males from females? Da titties. Which reggie obviously has 0 chest development. Gah, some people are just dumb.
furryloves said: Also to the janitor up there: So I guess he has never heard of the following: Femboys traps cunt boys males. or tits.
What is the biggest thing that seperates males from females? Da titties. Which reggie obviously has 0 chest development. Gah, some people are just dumb.
No kidding. You know what's worse?
Ratte added Neg -1 to Whygena's record over this, under this.
"Either comply with the same tagging rules everyone else has to follow or simply don't post.
Tagging Abuse / Tagging Vandalism"
How about
CHARACTER Vandalism?
How about ART Vandalism, for you, Ratte? I hadn't had a beef up until this point, but this is outright ridiculous adherence to the rules that _CONTINUE_ to cause trouble.
You know what's rough about the "Tag what you see" rule? What's really rough? If you know something IS something, know their name, know their sex?
It's a 50/50 chance you're gonna' find what you're looking for, because the tags are ENTIRELY up to perception, over ACCURACY.
Sorry to break it to you. But if a character is male. That character is male. Whether or not you can see their genitalia doesn't matter. Artist created it. Artist has the final say. End of story. I honestly agree with whygena,lack, and furryloves. Your rules are absolutely ridiculous. And honestly your response to criticism of those rules is disgustingly unprofessional. I honestly regret visiting this site knowing it's ran by such people.
IUseArchBtw said: You guys sound like babbys fighting over the last tendies. Rules are TWYS and the bottom looks more female than male, it doesn't matter what the artist says or the context, it matters how the viewer views it. It's not a perfect system but quality standards aren't either. How does a concept this simple make people so triggered. If you don't like the system then why use e6, go to FA and complain about stuff that deserves it. And who said mods can't report stuff, what are they supposed to do when they see people misbehaving, wait for another person to come along and report the user for them, OmegaLUL
1: Yes, insult, that'll get you ahead.
2: Yeah. Mods should generally wait for a report. Almost every other site works that way.
krystalius said: Sorry to break it to you. But if a character is male. That character is male. Whether or not you can see their genitalia doesn't matter. Artist created it. Artist has the final say. End of story.
The tagging system on e621 would be just like FA's, then. Terrible and impossible to use. (I don't even care for TWYS that much, personally, but I think it makes a much better system than any I've found anywhere else.)
MissChu said: The tagging system on e621 would be just like FA's, then. Terrible and impossible to use. (I don't even care for TWYS that much, personally, but I think it makes a much better system than any I've found anywhere else.)
MissChu said: The tagging system on e621 would be just like FA's, then. Terrible and impossible to use. (I don't even care for TWYS that much, personally, but I think it makes a much better system than any I've found anywhere else.)
Look at Derpibooru. That is the best tagging system like. Ever.
I don't use derpibooru much so i don't know how the system works, but with a search of "female" a lot of the posts look pretty ambiguous, i don't understand how this system is better, but maybe if you can help me understand the full context of how it works i can understand.
IUseArchBtw said: I don't use derpibooru much so i don't know how the system works, but with a search of "female" a lot of the posts look pretty ambiguous, i don't understand how this system is better, but maybe if you can help me understand the full context of how it works i can understand.
Derpibooru operates on fairly fixed tags. There's plenty of set/default tags to use, thought you can throw your own tags in that, if popular, can become colloquial tags. (And they can be purged, funny enough.)
Here are the guidelines. Look through various images, give it a whirl, if only for the tagging.
It is an honest to god, really good tagging system that has kept things extremely well categorized and is in my personal opinion, what should be the standard for tagging on websites.
We use many of the same tags.
But what matters is the execution, and lo and behold, the site is very artist friendly. There are even artists that are the sole individuals that can upload their own content.
Tags are largely to be respected, but if they are incorrect and you can source your corrections, they will be maintained because the information is, undeniably, correct.
Yeah it seems artist friendly, like FA or DA. But this is a viewer oriented site, i think the way Mairo put it is pretty fair, when people use this site, they look for images, not the artist, therefore the image itself matters more then the context of the artist.
Lackwit said: Look at Derpibooru. That is the best tagging system like. Ever.
It works.
Derpibooru is a mess, last time I searched there. Straight couples in non-straight searches, for one.
IUseArchBtw said: Yeah it seems artist friendly, like FA or DA. But this is a viewer oriented site, i think the way Mairo put it is pretty fair, when people use this site, they look for images, not the artist, therefore the image itself matters more then the context of the artist.
And people can always search by artist (provided the tagging was done correctly), so that's a non-issue too.
IUseArchBtw said: You guys sound like babbys fighting over the last tendies. Rules are TWYS and the bottom looks more female than male, it doesn't matter what the artist says or the context, it matters how the viewer views it. It's not a perfect system but quality standards aren't either. How does a concept this simple make people so triggered. If you don't like the system then why use e6, go to FA and complain about stuff that deserves it. And who said mods can't report stuff, what are they supposed to do when they see people misbehaving, wait for another person to come along and report the user for them, OmegaLUL
Hopefully this comment was worth the $5 dollars the admins just added to your Paypal.
I hate how, unless you give your character a bulging cock, if you give them girly they get tagged immediatly as female, because admins on a furry image gallery site dont know what femboys are, despite them being so popular in this community. How the fuck am I supposed to find SFW trap/femboy art? I thought these rules exist to "help users find what they are looking for", but I keep getting increasingly convinced its only still in place because the admins made it and they dont want to accept that it has massive issues that could be easily fixed. Plus, its only the gender tag that causes these issues. Why not just allow the artist to give the final say? That's such a simple solution.
There are no visible breasts of any sort on Reggie. He's completely flat-chested. Not even nipples. There is absolutely no justification for tagging him as 'female,' even by TWYS rules! I can SEE, with my fucking EYES, that he is NOT female. Even the asinine rule that's the cause of this whole retarded debacle says that he shouldn't be tagged as female. He should be tagged as either male, or ambiguous, but the female tag is completely fallacious and blatantly wrong. The evidence is literally in the fucking pudding.
VibrantLordiction said: There are no visible breasts of any sort on Reggie. He's completely flat-chested. Not even nipples. There is absolutely no justification for tagging him as 'female,' even by TWYS rules! I can SEE, with my fucking EYES, that he is NOT female. Even the asinine rule that's the cause of this whole retarded debacle says that he shouldn't be tagged as female. He should be tagged as either male, or ambiguous, but the female tag is completely fallacious and blatantly wrong. The evidence is literally in the fucking pudding.
Didn't you know? Long eyelashes instantly give you a vagina.
IUseArchBtw said: Yeah it seems artist friendly, like FA or DA. But this is a viewer oriented site, i think the way Mairo put it is pretty fair, when people use this site, they look for images, not the artist, therefore the image itself matters more then the context of the artist.
With all due respect, Derpi's system makes it EXTREMELY easy to find what you're looking for. Especially if you're looking for something very precise. So the image matters just as much as the artist there. Nobody has ever complained about Derpi's tagging seriously, I don't think. You can even get banned for -not- tagging specific things. (Futa, epilepsy warning, etc.)
MissChu said: Derpibooru is a mess, last time I searched there. Straight couples in non-straight searches, for one.
Last time I searched for female content here I ended up with this mouse -boyo-. So, don't know what you're getting at here? At least character sex is tagged appropriately over there.
VibrantLordiction said: There are no visible breasts of any sort on Reggie. He's completely flat-chested. Not even nipples. There is absolutely no justification for tagging him as 'female,' even by TWYS rules! I can SEE, with my fucking EYES, that he is NOT female. Even the asinine rule that's the cause of this whole retarded debacle says that he shouldn't be tagged as female. He should be tagged as either male, or ambiguous, but the female tag is completely fallacious and blatantly wrong. The evidence is literally in the fucking pudding.
Not to mention Reggie's first appearance tags him as male. So now we have a character that, despite zero changes AS a character, is somehow multiple sexes because of this rule.
jpkurihara said: Didn't you know? Long eyelashes instantly give you a vagina.
Every single one of you do realize that you did accept to go with sites rules and guidelines when you made the account and that TWYS tagging is pretty much basis of all everything?
This is our tagging system and has been for years. We aren't going to give single individual artists single individual character exclusion from this. All you are doing right now is shouting in the void and keeping up negative athmosphere. We would need to discuss changing fundemendals of the website in proper adult manner in forums about this instead, which reading most of these comments I'm afraid isn't happening, because majority are being mad about this specific character rather than system as whole.
I would just ask to even try and see why the situation is like this and enforced like this, because I can fully understand that it can look extremely retarded if you only look at it on surface that canonically male character being tagged as female. Me, other staff and bunch of other users are most likely more than willing to explain the situation even better for you as long as you just put down the pitchforks which you are poking them with.
furryloves said: Also to the janitor up there: So I guess he has never heard of the following: Femboys traps cunt boys males. or tits.
What is the biggest thing that seperates males from females? Da titties. Which reggie obviously has 0 chest development. Gah, some people are just dumb.
I have heard of those terms and in this case, the character is best described as trap. Them getting tagged with female it counts as extremely successfull trap, as their whole point is to be almost completely female until the pants drop. And I'm using trap word in sense that it's being used in japanese medium, I know that in west it has become contriversal to use.
As for chest, someone haven't seen flatchest characters apparently? Because there's no nipples visible, there's no saying if that's male chest or flatchested female.
Lackwit said: I would also like to point out that Ratte filed the report himself, and then acted upon it. I've been a moderator elsewhere. That isn't how fucking moderation works. Go check Whygena's record, it's public. -1, issued by Ratte, REPORTED by Ratte. That's fucking corrupt. https://i.imgur.com/Nvmi9on.png
Lackwit said: 1: Yes, insult, that'll get you ahead.
2: Yeah. Mods should generally wait for a report. Almost every other site works that way.
Could you please calm down? Right now you are just attaching yourself into all and every single small thing that could be a thing and shouting it out to keep up the negativity because you want to be angry about this and others to rise and be angry as well.
You and couple other users including artist commenting here clearly don't have any sort of grasp on how this site has worked for years already. Also no need to screenshot stuff, everything will always be kept and shown with transparency (excluding couple things like takedowns, because nasty people were pretty much only using those for their own advantage) and user records are kept forever even if someone else deletes them later. That's why deleted posts still have accessible page and you can only hide your own comments instead of deleting. https://e621.net/mod_action
"Reporter" section on profile means the person who wrote the record, it doesn't mean that that person filed complain. So even if individual user filed complain and Ratte handled the record to user, it would still say that Ratte was reporter and not individual user.
Also staff not taking action until someone reports it is just stupid. Everyone is staff is also part of the sites userbase. If someone posts paysite material, I'm not going to let it stay up until artist comes and sees it and then files full takedown of everything by them because we are leaking their paid material. I will delete it and report user to higher up staff for posting content againts our rules! That's like there being a murder in the street and police is shouting that someone could call them.
Lackwit said: Look at Derpibooru. That is the best tagging system like. Ever.
It works.
Lackwit said: With all due respect, Derpi's system makes it EXTREMELY easy to find what you're looking for. Especially if you're looking for something very precise. So the image matters just as much as the artist there. Nobody has ever complained about Derpi's tagging seriously, I don't think. You can even get banned for -not- tagging specific things. (Futa, epilepsy warning, etc.)
No and thank god we aren't derpibooru.
Also you have to understand that derpibooru is for ponies specifically, so that site revolves around lore - we can't because for most posts we don't know the lore.
jpkurihara said: I hate how, unless you give your character a bulging cock, if you give them girly they get tagged immediatly as female, because admins on a furry image gallery site dont know what femboys are, despite them being so popular in this community. How the fuck am I supposed to find SFW trap/femboy art? I thought these rules exist to "help users find what they are looking for", but I keep getting increasingly convinced its only still in place because the admins made it and they dont want to accept that it has massive issues that could be easily fixed. Plus, its only the gender tag that causes these issues. Why not just allow the artist to give the final say? That's such a simple solution.
If you have gone to elementary school biology, you do know that every species have sexual dimorphism which contains much more things than just genitalia. With humanoid characters there are general body proportions that are easy to see and with cartoony characters you do have traits that are always used to make distinguishing characters gender easier. Sadly if it is extremely successfull trap, that means that character looks completely female.
Reason why we disregard external information is consistency. This way everything is handled as objectively and consistantly, so that there's less guesswork and less favoring. Back to my earlier example of image of baby, let's say there's now two baby posts by two seperate artists, both tagged with baby. Other artist comes and says it's actually 1000 years old elder, so post gets tagged with elder now. Now user with baby on their blacklist comes, search for elder and sees the baby post, because artists says it's so and now we have tons of angry users rather than one angry character owner.
I know that tagging system based on visual information will cause situations like it being harder to find content with trap characters for example. However like I said before, description can be used, character bio in wiki can be done with external information so that you can use characters name to find traps and of course sets are free-for-all and can be used similarly to tags for searching/blacklisting.
Lackwit said: Not to mention Reggie's first appearance tags him as male. So now we have a character that, despite zero changes AS a character, is somehow multiple sexes because of this rule.
Hm...I guess this user never heard of Rule 63 before.
Honestly, at this point, I think I have to agree with the mod, if only because it's obvious that what's going on here is never going to result in the tags being changed.
He's right about the whole 'screaming into the void' thing. Even if the rules are broken or flawed, they're still the rules, and they're probably not going to be changed anytime soon.
I don't want to see the image removed or something because of the massive conflict it's causing. I've seen that happen before, ABOUT THE SAME TWYS GENDER CONFLICT NO LESS, where the artist just requested the work be taken down to stop the bickering.
The best we're going to get is the description, which at least points out that Reggie is supposed to be male, even if the tags disagree.
It's an unfortunate fact of reality that sometimes, shit is just fucked up and unfair, and nothing you can do can un-fuck it.
Mairo said: Every single one of you do realize that you did accept to go with sites rules and guidelines when you made the account and that TWYS tagging is pretty much basis of all everything?
This is our tagging system and has been for years. We aren't going to give single individual artists single individual character exclusion from this. All you are doing right now is shouting in the void and keeping up negative athmosphere. We would need to discuss changing fundemendals of the website in proper adult manner in forums about this instead, which reading most of these comments I'm afraid isn't happening, because majority are being mad about this specific character rather than system as whole.
I would just ask to even try and see why the situation is like this and enforced like this, because I can fully understand that it can look extremely retarded if you only look at it on surface that canonically male character being tagged as female. Me, other staff and bunch of other users are most likely more than willing to explain the situation even better for you as long as you just put down the pitchforks which you are poking them with.
I have heard of those terms and in this case, the character is best described as trap. Them getting tagged with female it counts as extremely successfull trap, as their whole point is to be almost completely female until the pants drop. And I'm using trap word in sense that it's being used in japanese medium, I know that in west it has become contriversal to use.
As for chest, someone haven't seen flatchest characters apparently? Because there's no nipples visible, there's no saying if that's male chest or flatchested female.
Could you please calm down? Right now you are just attaching yourself into all and every single small thing that could be a thing and shouting it out to keep up the negativity because you want to be angry about this and others to rise and be angry as well.
You and couple other users including artist commenting here clearly don't have any sort of grasp on how this site has worked for years already. Also no need to screenshot stuff, everything will always be kept and shown with transparency (excluding couple things like takedowns, because nasty people were pretty much only using those for their own advantage) and user records are kept forever even if someone else deletes them later. That's why deleted posts still have accessible page and you can only hide your own comments instead of deleting. https://e621.net/mod_action
"Reporter" section on profile means the person who wrote the record, it doesn't mean that that person filed complain. So even if individual user filed complain and Ratte handled the record to user, it would still say that Ratte was reporter and not individual user.
Also staff not taking action until someone reports it is just stupid. Everyone is staff is also part of the sites userbase. If someone posts paysite material, I'm not going to let it stay up until artist comes and sees it and then files full takedown of everything by them because we are leaking their paid material. I will delete it and report user to higher up staff for posting content againts our rules! That's like there being a murder in the street and police is shouting that someone could call them.
No and thank god we aren't derpibooru.
If you have gone to elementary school biology, you do know that every species have sexual dimorphism which contains much more things than just genitalia. With humanoid characters there are general body proportions that are easy to see and with cartoony characters you do have traits that are always used to make distinguishing characters gender easier. Sadly if it is extremely successfull trap, that means that character looks completely female.
Reason why we disregard external information is consistency. This way everything is handled as objectively and consistantly, so that there's less guesswork and less favoring. Back to my earlier example of image of baby, let's say there's now two baby posts by two seperate artists, both tagged with baby. Other artist comes and says it's actually 1000 years old elder, so post gets tagged with elder now. Now user with baby on their blacklist comes, search for elder and sees the baby post, because artists says it's so and now we have tons of angry users rather than one angry character owner.
I know that tagging system based on visual information will cause situations like it being harder to find content with trap characters for example. However like I said before, description can be used, character bio in wiki can be done with external information so that you can use characters name to find traps and of course sets are free-for-all and can be used similarly to tags for searching/blacklisting.
This is not the first time I have looked at tags and went "wtf". Reggie's body shape is what you would expect a regular mouse anthro to look like. Thin arms and legs, like the real thing. His hips are also regular-sized in this picture, which is an argument I see raised usually in these cases. The only thing that looks explicitly female are the long eyelashes (which can be simply be attained with makeup, or use fake ones). And if you count such a minor detail as the reason for the female tag, then I counter by saying that he has a really flat chest.
Which is more likely: a female with literally no tits at all, or a boy using fake eyelashes?
Plus, if we are supposed to tag the things we see, then why do you all disregard situations like the lizardlars comic (which you brought up in your previous comment). Stuff like that is in the art itself, yet it is completely diregarded for no reason.
Look at this: https://e621.net/post/show/1132905/absurd_res-blue_eyes-blush-canine-clothed-clothing It is an average anthro Sylveon, same color scheme, no tits, maid outfit (which is extremely popular with both genders) but is tagged as female instead of ambiguous/male, despite the massive male symbol besides it in a speech bubble pointing directly at it. Anyone would understand what that implies, but once again it is completely ignored despite being in the art itself, therefore part at it, therefore something we SEE. It's silly and inconsistent.
I can understand the previous case with Reggie wearing the shirt, since there is a very visible lack of genitalia under his underwear, but the shirt he is wearing makes absolutely zero sense if it is getting worn by a female ("Warning: I turn straight guys gay"). It confuses the viewer.
I don't understand why not put an Ambiguous Gender tag here. If there's this much discussion over the character's gender, then it is OBVIOUSLY NOT EXPLICIT, therefore there is room for debate, therefore its ambiguous.
I don't know how to end this comment, but yeah, thats my two cents.
jpkurihara said: This is not the first time I have looked at tags and went "wtf". Reggie's body shape is what you would expect a regular mouse anthro to look like. Thin arms and legs, like the real thing. His hips are also regular-sized in this picture, which is an argument I see raised usually in these cases. The only thing that looks explicitly female are the long eyelashes (which can be simply be attained with makeup, or use fake ones). And if you count such a minor detail as the reason for the female tag, then I counter by saying that he has a really flat chest.
Which is more likely: a female with literally no tits at all, or a boy using fake eyelashes?
Plus, if we are supposed to tag the things we see, then why do you all disregard situations like the lizardlars comic (which you brought up in your previous comment). Stuff like that is in the art itself, yet it is completely diregarded for no reason.
Look at this: https://e621.net/post/show/1132905/absurd_res-blue_eyes-blush-canine-clothed-clothing It is an average anthro Sylveon, same color scheme, no tits, maid outfit (which is extremely popular with both genders) but is tagged as female instead of ambiguous/male, despite the massive male symbol besides it in a speech bubble pointing directly at it. Anyone would understand what that implies, but once again it is completely ignored despite being in the art itself, therefore part at it, therefore something we SEE. It's silly and inconsistent.
I can understand the previous case with Reggie wearing the shirt, since there is a very visible lack of genitalia under his underwear, but the shirt he is wearing makes absolutely zero sense if it is getting worn by a female ("Warning: I turn straight guys gay"). It confuses the viewer.
I don't understand why not put an Ambiguous Gender tag here. If there's this much discussion over the character's gender, then it is OBVIOUSLY NOT EXPLICIT, therefore there is room for debate, therefore its ambiguous.
I don't know how to end this comment, but yeah, thats my two cents.
Of course everyone does still see things differendly, that's exactly why we have staff who can enforce rules and lock tags. These images have now been handled at least handful of the staff and everyone has come to same conclusion, because there actually were users tagging it back and forth before staff got here.
With lizardlars comic, go back to example I wrote in my last message. Now the other baby picture, instead of artist coming here and saying it's 1000 years old elder, now it's written on the image itself in latin. Do we still tag it as baby or as elder? If not, then would it be differend situation if it was in english or if artist themselves came down here? There's actually image where male orc is saying "please impregnate my cunt" in first image, where in third image user is confused that it was clearly anal. That's because there was porn talk where male orc is being submissive, but image clearly shouldn't be tagged neither female, vaginal or impregnantation when none of that is visually seen other than the dialogue.
Again, there's actually good reasons why things are done why they are done with main aim of being consistant, fair and objective, but some things will of course be edge cases and will need some explaining to understand.
Ambiguous gender tag is preserved for situations where there's absolutely zero indication for any sort of gender. This character is clearly either female or extremely girly trap male, at which point it comes down to staff ruling. This is to make the post still searchable in some manner as we do allow wildcards and either/or tag searches, where this would show up with ~girly ~female search.
I'm not going to even open post #1132905, because I'm not the guy who enforces these things. I'm not admin, so all I can do is what every single other user can do and give out their opinion or report the post if needed. I already handle a lot of "but what about this post" with approval process myself though and I'm always annoyed when someone draws that card without understanding the situation or process, as in the end there's no way that staff can remember ruling on thousands of posts, so all we can do is reflect our decisions on rules and guidelines and hopefully make the call where majority stays happy.
Lackwit said: No, I have. But you know what's true about this character? They're literally only male.
You do know they aren't real, right? They're nothing but lines and coloring. An artist can change a char's gender into a herm and you have to deal with it. They're not a flesh and blood person, whomever can draw it will change a given drawing gender.
There's no 'only one gender' in the art world or creative world. There had been plays and such where a given char's gender been change, or out right made null for the sake of the creative freedom.
Lackwit said: >Reason why we disregard external information is consistency.
Okay, so why is Reggie tagged male elsewhere at all then? That sure is consistent.
Consistency within the rules. If a feminine looking character has a visible penis the character will be tagged as feminine male. If the same character doesn't have visible genitalia the feminine traits overweigh and make it a female.
i feel like using the ambiguous gender tag would very easily strike a compromise for both sides, but whether out of stubbornness or just spite, you keep refusing to change it- again, it's been tagged ambiguous gender on other images of girly male that couldn't really be discerned, so why is this the exception?
Lord_Eggplant said: ambiguous gender is not "backup when people do not agree with tagging" tag. its for characters who are not masculine or feminine. this character is very feminine.
well, as you can see, this has caused quite a lot of arguing- so why not use it as a compromise when absolutely necessary?
a_lamb_from_lol said: well, as you can see, this has caused quite a lot of arguing- so why not use it as a compromise when absolutely necessary?
Because people will bitch regardless of what anyone does they don't like. You can give them all the money in the world, and they'll still whine about it.
Like the old saying goes "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time."
a_lamb_from_lol said: well, as you can see, this has caused quite a lot of arguing- so why not use it as a compromise when absolutely necessary?
I guess it's easy to get loss with so much text.
Compromise is that admins rule it one way and lock the tags to avoid tag wars over the content. Like Eggplant said, ambiguous has specific purpose for characters without any kind of gender features at all, the purpose isn't to settle down fights with female looking characters. There has already been ruling on this, further discussion like this is only prolonging things without purpose, even if I can see that your intention would be to make even more parties happy.
if you can tag a character's name when it isn't clear in the image - including when that character has been so transformed by style and species swaps as to otherwise be unrecognizable - then you can tag the character's sex / gender when it isn't clear in the picture too
time and time again we have seen that character sex is disproportionately incompatible with Tag What You See compared to all other tags, OBVIOUSLY TWYS is not sufficient to handle this situation, a new protocol needs to be implemented
FibS said: time and time again we have seen that character sex is disproportionately incompatible with Tag What You See compared to all other tags, OBVIOUSLY TWYS is not sufficient to handle this situation, a new protocol needs to be implemented
And what, pray tell, kind of system would you use? Just saying 'There's needs to be change', but offering not ideas on how to do such is just useless.
why are we still arguing about this, lore gender doesn't matter, and it's not a given rule that every tag system has to have, why can't people accept this
The_Shinx said: And what, pray tell, kind of system would you use? Just saying 'There's needs to be change', but offering not ideas on how to do such is just useless.
Well, why not make character gender tags part of the exception that covers character names?
After all, character name tags didn't always have that exception to TWYS.
RedMidget said: Well, why not make character gender tags part of the exception that covers character names?
After all, character name tags didn't always have that exception to TWYS.
Sure, let's test that in theory:
Let's say I'm an artist and I draw Fox and Star Fox. I make fox very pretty and more towards the female form. Than let say I post said pic of Fox. Does it goes under male or female tag?
Let's say I'm an artist and I draw Fox and Star Fox. I make fox very pretty and more towards the female form. Than let say I post said pic of Fox. Does it goes under male or female tag?
It depends what you as the artist intend really. Girly man? Male. Girly girl? female. Something in-between? One of the other gender tags available.
Ideally, as with character names, the gender of said characters in said picture would be taken from the source tags of said picture, or from the "mouth" of the artist of said picture, or from supplementary material. If there are no tags or info or what-have-you at the source, then TWYS will become the default go-to method of tagging for that image.
RedMidget said: It depends what you as the artist intend really. Girly man? Male. Girly girl? female. Something in-between? One of the other gender tags available.
My goal would be to break the system with the idea you had. More in point - using gender tag base on name would backfire greatly because I can take a given char and give it a different gender.
In my example, I took a male char and turn it female. By this system, they have to tag it male because the char is male by lore. Which would curse issues for folks looking for a different gender char of X.
RedMidget said: Ideally, as with character names, the gender of said characters in said picture would be taken from the source tags of said picture, or from the "mouth" of the artist of said picture, or from supplementary material. If there are no tags or info or what-have-you at the source, then TWYS will become the default go-to method of tagging for that image.
And no, there doesn't need to have three systems for this site or any site for that matter. By your logic, we should be tagging by lore. But we should also tag by what an artist said as well. And than we have TWYS as well.
Ever heard of the old saying "too many cooks spoil the broth."? Because you're going to ruin a site for the sake of an artist getting uppery because of a tag.
Names are either female or male names based on culture, there are no male or female names, my name is Louvel which isn't very manly in America but common in France, this argument is not valid
The_Shinx said: My goal would be to break the system with the idea you had. More in point - using gender tag base on name would backfire greatly because I can take a given char and give it a different gender.
In my example, I took a male char and turn it female. By this system, they have to tag it male because the char is male by lore. Which would curse issues for folks looking for a different gender char of X.
Oh no, I didn't mean directly link the Gender and Character Name tags, I mean allow the Gender Tags the same exception from TWYS as Character Names
The_Shinx said: And no, there doesn't need to have three systems for this site or any site for that matter. By your logic, we should be tagging by lore. But we should also tag by what an artist said as well. And than we have TWYS as well.
Ever heard of the old saying "too many cooks spoil the broth."? Because you're going to ruin a site for the sake of an artist getting uppery because of a tag.
My Logic is that we carry over any marker of gender identity from source tags or descriptions, in order to prevent issues like this, as was done before with the character names exception to TWYS.
This is hardly a case of "Too many cooks". I'm not suggesting some insane FA style free-for-all.
This is practically the same as things are done now, but gender tags would fall under the same exception that has been used for character names for five years now.
This is all pointless, really. The tags were locked in by an admin, I sincerely doubt they're going to be changed. If you don't like how Ratte ruled on the matter, make a complaint to the staff. Not much will likely happen, but it's more constructive than arguing back and forth in the comment section.
The_Shinx said: You do know they aren't real, right? They're nothing but lines and coloring. An artist can change a char's gender into a herm and you have to deal with it. They're not a flesh and blood person, whomever can draw it will change a given drawing gender.
There's no 'only one gender' in the art world or creative world. There had been plays and such where a given char's gender been change, or out right made null for the sake of the creative freedom.
EX: A female Link, AKA Linkle.
But Whygena didn't change it on a whim. You do know that right?
NotMeNotYou said: Consistency within the rules. If a feminine looking character has a visible penis the character will be tagged as feminine male. If the same character doesn't have visible genitalia the feminine traits overweigh and make it a female.
Then change it to ambiguous. The lack of tits makes it pretty hard to immediately discern, y'know. No visible genitalia, features aside from eyelashes, and last I checked, long eyelashes don't mean vagina.
The_Shinx said: And what, pray tell, kind of system would you use? Just saying 'There's needs to be change', but offering not ideas on how to do such is just useless.
I've offered a proven-to-work alternative. With all due respect, shutting one's ears to an alternative that has worked efficiently since 2010 is foolhardy.
Let's say I'm an artist and I draw Fox and Star Fox. I make fox very pretty and more towards the female form. Than let say I post said pic of Fox. Does it goes under male or female tag?
Ambiguous gender. Fox can look feminine all they want, but until I see a tit, ball, dick or cunt I can't say what they are. Frankly, especially in the 2018 climate. So to make it as neutral as possible, "Ambiguous Gender" is the correct answer. A binary answer, is not. Especially when we do not have that system, explicitly, on e621.
IUseArchBtw said: Names are either female or male names based on culture, there are no male or female names, my name is Louvel which isn't very manly in America but common in France, this argument is not valid
Reginald (Reggie) is pretty much guaranteed masculine anywhere that uses it. But, you aren't incorrect, not entirely.
RedMidget said: Oh no, I didn't mean directly link the Gender and Character Name tags, I mean allow the Gender Tags the same exception from TWYS as Character Names
My Logic is that we carry over any marker of gender identity from source tags or descriptions, in order to prevent issues like this, as was done before with the character names exception to TWYS.
This is hardly a case of "Too many cooks". I'm not suggesting some insane FA style free-for-all.
This is practically the same as things are done now, but gender tags would fall under the same exception that has been used for character names for five years now.
A reasonable reply. I should add once again that Reggie has been tagged male elsewhere and there is very little of him. With that in mind it stands to reason that the artist's depiction is consistent, and the character is indeed male.
And with all due respect to The Shinx, you can make the Rule 63 argument... Until the artist specifically says, "Uh, no that's... Not the case."
Which has been said.
This level of artist unfriendliness makes me very tempted to spread the word on just how anti-source/artist e621 is, honestly. It's rather absurd, and if the flagrant disregard for the artist were to be displayed at large I think many would withdraw their work from the site.
And to be frank, they deserve that power.
Because this site is useless without content, and art is content.
Lackwit said: But Whygena didn't change it on a whim. You do know that right?
Then change it to ambiguous. The lack of tits makes it pretty hard to immediately discern, y'know. No visible genitalia, features aside from eyelashes, and last I checked, long eyelashes don't mean vagina.
I've offered a proven-to-work alternative. With all due respect, shutting one's ears to an alternative that has worked efficiently since 2010 is foolhardy.
Ambiguous gender. Fox can look feminine all they want, but until I see a tit, ball, dick or cunt I can't say what they are. Frankly, especially in the 2018 climate. So to make it as neutral as possible, "Ambiguous Gender" is the correct answer. A binary answer, is not. Especially when we do not have that system, explicitly, on e621.
Reginald (Reggie) is pretty much guaranteed masculine anywhere that uses it. But, you aren't incorrect, not entirely.
A reasonable reply. I should add once again that Reggie has been tagged male elsewhere and there is very little of him. With that in mind it stands to reason that the artist's depiction is consistent, and the character is indeed male.
And with all due respect to The Shinx, you can make the Rule 63 argument... Until the artist specifically says, "Uh, no that's... Not the case."
Which has been said.
This level of artist unfriendliness makes me very tempted to spread the word on just how anti-source/artist e621 is, honestly. It's rather absurd, and if the flagrant disregard for the artist were to be displayed at large I think many would withdraw their work from the site.
And to be frank, they deserve that power.
Because this site is useless without content, and art is content.
"until I see a tit" You know some species may not have poked out breasts right, distinguishable knockers are a human thing
Lackwit said: But Whygena didn't change it on a whim. You do know that right?
Then change it to ambiguous. The lack of tits makes it pretty hard to immediately discern, y'know. No visible genitalia, features aside from eyelashes, and last I checked, long eyelashes don't mean vagina.
I've offered a proven-to-work alternative. With all due respect, shutting one's ears to an alternative that has worked efficiently since 2010 is foolhardy.
Ambiguous gender. Fox can look feminine all they want, but until I see a tit, ball, dick or cunt I can't say what they are. Frankly, especially in the 2018 climate. So to make it as neutral as possible, "Ambiguous Gender" is the correct answer. A binary answer, is not. Especially when we do not have that system, explicitly, on e621.
Reginald (Reggie) is pretty much guaranteed masculine anywhere that uses it. But, you aren't incorrect, not entirely.
A reasonable reply. I should add once again that Reggie has been tagged male elsewhere and there is very little of him. With that in mind it stands to reason that the artist's depiction is consistent, and the character is indeed male.
And with all due respect to The Shinx, you can make the Rule 63 argument... Until the artist specifically says, "Uh, no that's... Not the case."
Which has been said.
This level of artist unfriendliness makes me very tempted to spread the word on just how anti-source/artist e621 is, honestly. It's rather absurd, and if the flagrant disregard for the artist were to be displayed at large I think many would withdraw their work from the site.
And to be frank, they deserve that power.
Because this site is useless without content, and art is content.
also it's been said like 3 times now, this isn't a artist oriented site, yes it can be used to find artists, but it's made for viewing. Calling it "anti artist" is apples to oranges and unfair, however you are correct about the Anti source tag point, but everyone knows that, because it's in the rules. If people pull their art from the site because of things that are already obvious and for whatever reason then so be it, less exposure for them for a dumb reason though.
furryloves said: yeah but at least fans a re willing to fight the E621 mods on your behalf.,(Which is quite brave considering most of them are,jerks)
i'm pretty sure it's just 2 or 3 people who haven't read the rules. No need to call the Admins jerks for enforcing something. Are the police jerks for telling you not to do something you shouldn't. Like Come on man :(
IUseArchBtw said: i'm pretty sure it's just 2 or 3 people who haven't read the rules. No need to call the Admins jerks for enforcing something. Are the police jerks for telling you not to do something you shouldn't. Like Come on man :(
Wasn't calling them jerks for this, it is there rules, although very unreliable. However I have seen some admins become complete douches over other things. Even if no one is breaking the rules.
Read context my friend. Mever refered to them being jerks over this mess. Simoly stated something in general.
The comments are a warground.. I may put in a couple pennies and say I believe it's male/male or may make it harder to find this post is you blacklist female though. Which is why I think a whitelist would be a good feature. To say "even if stuff on this post is in blacklist, show it anyway" ... Come to think of it. I should probably ask the admins for that. TO THE REQUEST MOBILE!!
H2O2 said: That is a thing, im almost certain. You just have to put the minus sign (-) before an entry in your blacklist. for example lets say you don't want to see m/m pictures unless there is a female or ambiguous character present. then you would enter this as a line in your blacklist:
male/male -female -ambiguous_gender
This would block all images containing male/male and dont have a female or ambiguous gender tag present. As for this image the most relevant comparison would be
female -reggie_(whygena)
If you want to apply it to all of your blacklist lines you would need to do that individually, however. I dont even use the blacklist at all though so i might be a little bit off but that's how I think it works, im like 97% sure.
H2O2 said: That is a thing, im almost certain. You just have to put the minus sign (-) before an entry in your blacklist. for example lets say you don't want to see m/m pictures unless there is a female or ambiguous character present. then you would enter this as a line in your blacklist:
male/male -female -ambiguous_gender
This would block all images containing male/male and dont have a female or ambiguous gender tag present. As for this image the most relevant comparison would be
female -reggie_(whygena)
If you want to apply it to all of your blacklist lines you would need to do that individually, however. I dont even use the blacklist at all though so i might be a little bit off but that's how I think it works, im like 97% sure.
Just tested it, and holy crap, that works! Wow, I never knew that was a thing you could do with the blacklist. Bless you.
Rally said: Just tested it, and holy crap, that works! Wow, I never knew that was a thing you could do with the blacklist. Bless you.
Indeed. Each line in the blacklist is treated as a separate argument, so you can blacklist either in general with one tag/line or more specifically by adding tags and addenda on one line.
Wow, why is this tagged as female if the chest is clearly visible and is the chest of a male? And don't tell me that it isn't enough to tell someone's gender because the admins clearly think that's enough since they locked this other animation as ''male'' because the chest was visible. post #1639855
Reptard said: Not according to anyone who uses the site.
I use the site, and it's a mess. Trying to exclude content I do not want to see or finding content I want to see is colossal pain in ass and requires hopping through fifty loopholes because people are allowed to tag whatever hell they want.
You must be over the age of 18 and agree
to the terms of service to access this page.
By default a limited blacklist has been applied hiding content that is commonly objected to. You may remove
items from this blacklist by using the blacklist menu item.
user 209420
MemberReggie~ <3
NeonBlu
MemberYes, more of this glorious mouse <3
dracotay
BlockedYes, more of this cute lil mouse boi :3
LunaDarklight
BlockedNever liked mouse... But then there's Reggie. Nnfff... so cute <3
MajorFuzzball
MemberCUUUUTEE!!
VibrantLordiction
MemberI love Reggie so much.
DieselWzl
MemberI disagree with Ratte locking the tags on this post claiming this is M/F since there are no breasts, and the groin isn't visible. Even the original post labels it as "gay", so it should be either male/male or male/ambiguous, since there is no concrete evidence of the character being a female.
furryloves
MemberTrue. Even though we have seen Reggie before and he is obviously a male and not like Rikki who has multiple gender forms.
Torrin
Memberdunno why anyone would downvote you guys for just saying the truth i would remove the tag myself but then again knowing my luck there will be something against me no genitals are visible so it should be by default either male/ambigious or just M/M
Whygena
MemberI can't even change it. Not only is it MY work, but I POSTED IT
What the shit
VibrantLordiction
MemberThat is ten different shades of fucked up.
Whygena
MemberI tagged this the best I could
Shatari
MemberThe stupid "Tag what you see" rule means that the Admins get to decide what your character's gender is for you, sadly.
VibrantLordiction
MemberI'm pretty sure the artist personally coming on here and saying the tags are wrong ought to override the asinine rules, especially when it's a rule with a long history of causing stupid problems.
But that would make too much fucking sense, I guess.
Shatari
MemberI think the only real work around is to have text or symbols explicitly indicating the genders of the characters on the image itself.
Shatari
MemberWhat's weird is that the ambiguous_gender and girly tags are usually a compromise, but they've specifically disabled those.
a lamb from lol
Memberseriously though, why not just tag it as ambiguous?
Lackwit
MemberYou know what's not a made up tag? Male.
You know what Reggie (hey what a masculine name) isn't? Female.
a lamb from lol
Memberi don't see any visible genitalia or breasts, so i'm pretty sure that warrants ambiguous gender... it's been tagged that way on plenty of other girly male images, so why is this the exception?
VibrantLordiction
MemberThey hated
JesusLackwit because He told them the truth.darryus
MemberText and symbols are to be ignored for TWYS in a grand majority of if not all cases.
furryloves
MemberAlso to the janitor up there:
So I guess he has never heard of the following:
Femboys
traps
cunt boys
males.
or tits.
What is the biggest thing that seperates males from females?
Da titties.
Which reggie obviously has 0 chest development.
Gah, some people are just dumb.
Lackwit
MemberNo kidding. You know what's worse?
Ratte added Neg -1 to Whygena's record over this, under this.
"Either comply with the same tagging rules everyone else has to follow or simply don't post.
Tagging Abuse / Tagging Vandalism"
How about
CHARACTER Vandalism?
How about ART Vandalism, for you, Ratte? I hadn't had a beef up until this point, but this is outright ridiculous adherence to the rules that _CONTINUE_ to cause trouble.
You know what's rough about the "Tag what you see" rule? What's really rough? If you know something IS something, know their name, know their sex?
It's a 50/50 chance you're gonna' find what you're looking for, because the tags are ENTIRELY up to perception, over ACCURACY.
That. Isn't. Right.
krystalius
MemberSorry to break it to you. But if a character is male.
That character is male. Whether or not you can see their genitalia doesn't matter. Artist created it. Artist has the final say. End of story. I honestly agree with whygena,lack, and furryloves. Your rules are absolutely ridiculous. And honestly your response to criticism of those rules is disgustingly unprofessional. I honestly regret visiting this site knowing it's ran by such people.
Lackwit
MemberI would also like to point out that Ratte filed the report himself, and then acted upon it.
I've been a moderator elsewhere.
That isn't how fucking moderation works.
Go check Whygena's record, it's public. -1, issued by Ratte, REPORTED by Ratte.
That's fucking corrupt.
https://i.imgur.com/Nvmi9on.png
Lackwit
Member1: Yes, insult, that'll get you ahead.
2: Yeah. Mods should generally wait for a report. Almost every other site works that way.
MissChu
MemberThe tagging system on e621 would be just like FA's, then. Terrible and impossible to use. (I don't even care for TWYS that much, personally, but I think it makes a much better system than any I've found anywhere else.)
IUseArchBtw
Memberoh look a rational person
Lackwit
MemberLook at Derpibooru. That is the best tagging system like. Ever.
It works.
IUseArchBtw
MemberI don't use derpibooru much so i don't know how the system works, but with a search of "female" a lot of the posts look pretty ambiguous, i don't understand how this system is better, but maybe if you can help me understand the full context of how it works i can understand.
Lackwit
MemberDerpibooru operates on fairly fixed tags. There's plenty of set/default tags to use, thought you can throw your own tags in that, if popular, can become colloquial tags. (And they can be purged, funny enough.)
https://derpibooru.org/pages/tags
Here are the guidelines. Look through various images, give it a whirl, if only for the tagging.
It is an honest to god, really good tagging system that has kept things extremely well categorized and is in my personal opinion, what should be the standard for tagging on websites.
We use many of the same tags.
But what matters is the execution, and lo and behold, the site is very artist friendly. There are even artists that are the sole individuals that can upload their own content.
Tags are largely to be respected, but if they are incorrect and you can source your corrections, they will be maintained because the information is, undeniably, correct.
It's a great system. Thank you for asking.
IUseArchBtw
MemberYeah it seems artist friendly, like FA or DA. But this is a viewer oriented site, i think the way Mairo put it is pretty fair, when people use this site, they look for images, not the artist, therefore the image itself matters more then the context of the artist.
MissChu
MemberDerpibooru is a mess, last time I searched there. Straight couples in non-straight searches, for one.
And people can always search by artist (provided the tagging was done correctly), so that's a non-issue too.
dudewholovesyiff
MemberHopefully this comment was worth the $5 dollars the admins just added to your Paypal.
jpkurihara
MemberI hate how, unless you give your character a bulging cock, if you give them girly they get tagged immediatly as female, because admins on a furry image gallery site dont know what femboys are, despite them being so popular in this community.
How the fuck am I supposed to find SFW trap/femboy art? I thought these rules exist to "help users find what they are looking for", but I keep getting increasingly convinced its only still in place because the admins made it and they dont want to accept that it has massive issues that could be easily fixed.
Plus, its only the gender tag that causes these issues. Why not just allow the artist to give the final say? That's such a simple solution.
VibrantLordiction
MemberThere are no visible breasts of any sort on Reggie.
He's completely flat-chested. Not even nipples.
There is absolutely no justification for tagging him as 'female,' even by TWYS rules! I can SEE, with my fucking EYES, that he is NOT female.
Even the asinine rule that's the cause of this whole retarded debacle says that he shouldn't be tagged as female.
He should be tagged as either male, or ambiguous, but the female tag is completely fallacious and blatantly wrong.
The evidence is literally in the fucking pudding.
jpkurihara
MemberDidn't you know? Long eyelashes instantly give you a vagina.
Lackwit
MemberWith all due respect, Derpi's system makes it EXTREMELY easy to find what you're looking for. Especially if you're looking for something very precise. So the image matters just as much as the artist there. Nobody has ever complained about Derpi's tagging seriously, I don't think. You can even get banned for -not- tagging specific things. (Futa, epilepsy warning, etc.)
Last time I searched for female content here I ended up with this mouse -boyo-. So, don't know what you're getting at here? At least character sex is tagged appropriately over there.
Not to mention Reggie's first appearance tags him as male. So now we have a character that, despite zero changes AS a character, is somehow multiple sexes because of this rule.
Shit, I gotta' tell speed racer something.
Mairo
JanitorEvery single one of you do realize that you did accept to go with sites rules and guidelines when you made the account and that TWYS tagging is pretty much basis of all everything?
This is our tagging system and has been for years. We aren't going to give single individual artists single individual character exclusion from this. All you are doing right now is shouting in the void and keeping up negative athmosphere. We would need to discuss changing fundemendals of the website in proper adult manner in forums about this instead, which reading most of these comments I'm afraid isn't happening, because majority are being mad about this specific character rather than system as whole.
I would just ask to even try and see why the situation is like this and enforced like this, because I can fully understand that it can look extremely retarded if you only look at it on surface that canonically male character being tagged as female. Me, other staff and bunch of other users are most likely more than willing to explain the situation even better for you as long as you just put down the pitchforks which you are poking them with.
I have heard of those terms and in this case, the character is best described as trap. Them getting tagged with female it counts as extremely successfull trap, as their whole point is to be almost completely female until the pants drop.
And I'm using trap word in sense that it's being used in japanese medium, I know that in west it has become contriversal to use.
As for chest, someone haven't seen flatchest characters apparently? Because there's no nipples visible, there's no saying if that's male chest or flatchested female.
Could you please calm down? Right now you are just attaching yourself into all and every single small thing that could be a thing and shouting it out to keep up the negativity because you want to be angry about this and others to rise and be angry as well.
You and couple other users including artist commenting here clearly don't have any sort of grasp on how this site has worked for years already. Also no need to screenshot stuff, everything will always be kept and shown with transparency (excluding couple things like takedowns, because nasty people were pretty much only using those for their own advantage) and user records are kept forever even if someone else deletes them later. That's why deleted posts still have accessible page and you can only hide your own comments instead of deleting.
https://e621.net/mod_action
"Reporter" section on profile means the person who wrote the record, it doesn't mean that that person filed complain. So even if individual user filed complain and Ratte handled the record to user, it would still say that Ratte was reporter and not individual user.
Also staff not taking action until someone reports it is just stupid. Everyone is staff is also part of the sites userbase. If someone posts paysite material, I'm not going to let it stay up until artist comes and sees it and then files full takedown of everything by them because we are leaking their paid material. I will delete it and report user to higher up staff for posting content againts our rules! That's like there being a murder in the street and police is shouting that someone could call them.
No and thank god we aren't derpibooru.
Also you have to understand that derpibooru is for ponies specifically, so that site revolves around lore - we can't because for most posts we don't know the lore.
If you have gone to elementary school biology, you do know that every species have sexual dimorphism which contains much more things than just genitalia. With humanoid characters there are general body proportions that are easy to see and with cartoony characters you do have traits that are always used to make distinguishing characters gender easier. Sadly if it is extremely successfull trap, that means that character looks completely female.
Reason why we disregard external information is consistency. This way everything is handled as objectively and consistantly, so that there's less guesswork and less favoring. Back to my earlier example of image of baby, let's say there's now two baby posts by two seperate artists, both tagged with baby. Other artist comes and says it's actually 1000 years old elder, so post gets tagged with elder now. Now user with baby on their blacklist comes, search for elder and sees the baby post, because artists says it's so and now we have tons of angry users rather than one angry character owner.
I know that tagging system based on visual information will cause situations like it being harder to find content with trap characters for example. However like I said before, description can be used, character bio in wiki can be done with external information so that you can use characters name to find traps and of course sets are free-for-all and can be used similarly to tags for searching/blacklisting.
The Shinx
MemberHm...I guess this user never heard of Rule 63 before.
VibrantLordiction
MemberHonestly, at this point, I think I have to agree with the mod, if only because it's obvious that what's going on here is never going to result in the tags being changed.
He's right about the whole 'screaming into the void' thing.
Even if the rules are broken or flawed, they're still the rules, and they're probably not going to be changed anytime soon.
I don't want to see the image removed or something because of the massive conflict it's causing.
I've seen that happen before, ABOUT THE SAME TWYS GENDER CONFLICT NO LESS, where the artist just requested the work be taken down to stop the bickering.
The best we're going to get is the description, which at least points out that Reggie is supposed to be male, even if the tags disagree.
It's an unfortunate fact of reality that sometimes, shit is just fucked up and unfair, and nothing you can do can un-fuck it.
Lackwit
MemberNo, I have. But you know what's true about this character? They're literally only male.
Well not with that attitude, no.
As for the moderator...
>Reason why we disregard external information is consistency.
Okay, so why is Reggie tagged male elsewhere at all then? That sure is consistent.
jpkurihara
MemberThis is not the first time I have looked at tags and went "wtf".
Reggie's body shape is what you would expect a regular mouse anthro to look like. Thin arms and legs, like the real thing. His hips are also regular-sized in this picture, which is an argument I see raised usually in these cases.
The only thing that looks explicitly female are the long eyelashes (which can be simply be attained with makeup, or use fake ones). And if you count such a minor detail as the reason for the female tag, then I counter by saying that he has a really flat chest.
Which is more likely: a female with literally no tits at all, or a boy using fake eyelashes?
Plus, if we are supposed to tag the things we see, then why do you all disregard situations like the lizardlars comic (which you brought up in your previous comment). Stuff like that is in the art itself, yet it is completely diregarded for no reason.
Look at this: https://e621.net/post/show/1132905/absurd_res-blue_eyes-blush-canine-clothed-clothing
It is an average anthro Sylveon, same color scheme, no tits, maid outfit (which is extremely popular with both genders) but is tagged as female instead of ambiguous/male, despite the massive male symbol besides it in a speech bubble pointing directly at it. Anyone would understand what that implies, but once again it is completely ignored despite being in the art itself, therefore part at it, therefore something we SEE. It's silly and inconsistent.
I can understand the previous case with Reggie wearing the shirt, since there is a very visible lack of genitalia under his underwear, but the shirt he is wearing makes absolutely zero sense if it is getting worn by a female ("Warning: I turn straight guys gay"). It confuses the viewer.
I don't understand why not put an Ambiguous Gender tag here. If there's this much discussion over the character's gender, then it is OBVIOUSLY NOT EXPLICIT, therefore there is room for debate, therefore its ambiguous.
I don't know how to end this comment, but yeah, thats my two cents.
Mairo
JanitorOf course everyone does still see things differendly, that's exactly why we have staff who can enforce rules and lock tags. These images have now been handled at least handful of the staff and everyone has come to same conclusion, because there actually were users tagging it back and forth before staff got here.
With lizardlars comic, go back to example I wrote in my last message. Now the other baby picture, instead of artist coming here and saying it's 1000 years old elder, now it's written on the image itself in latin. Do we still tag it as baby or as elder? If not, then would it be differend situation if it was in english or if artist themselves came down here? There's actually image where male orc is saying "please impregnate my cunt" in first image, where in third image user is confused that it was clearly anal. That's because there was porn talk where male orc is being submissive, but image clearly shouldn't be tagged neither female, vaginal or impregnantation when none of that is visually seen other than the dialogue.
Again, there's actually good reasons why things are done why they are done with main aim of being consistant, fair and objective, but some things will of course be edge cases and will need some explaining to understand.
Ambiguous gender tag is preserved for situations where there's absolutely zero indication for any sort of gender. This character is clearly either female or extremely girly trap male, at which point it comes down to staff ruling. This is to make the post still searchable in some manner as we do allow wildcards and either/or tag searches, where this would show up with ~girly ~female search.
I'm not going to even open post #1132905, because I'm not the guy who enforces these things. I'm not admin, so all I can do is what every single other user can do and give out their opinion or report the post if needed. I already handle a lot of "but what about this post" with approval process myself though and I'm always annoyed when someone draws that card without understanding the situation or process, as in the end there's no way that staff can remember ruling on thousands of posts, so all we can do is reflect our decisions on rules and guidelines and hopefully make the call where majority stays happy.
The Shinx
MemberYou do know they aren't real, right? They're nothing but lines and coloring. An artist can change a char's gender into a herm and you have to deal with it. They're not a flesh and blood person, whomever can draw it will change a given drawing gender.
There's no 'only one gender' in the art world or creative world. There had been plays and such where a given char's gender been change, or out right made null for the sake of the creative freedom.
EX: A female Link, AKA Linkle.
NotMeNotYou
AdminConsistency within the rules. If a feminine looking character has a visible penis the character will be tagged as feminine male. If the same character doesn't have visible genitalia the feminine traits overweigh and make it a female.
a lamb from lol
Memberi feel like using the ambiguous gender tag would very easily strike a compromise for both sides, but whether out of stubbornness or just spite, you keep refusing to change it- again, it's been tagged ambiguous gender on other images of girly male that couldn't really be discerned, so why is this the exception?
a lamb from lol
Memberwell, as you can see, this has caused quite a lot of arguing- so why not use it as a compromise when absolutely necessary?
The Shinx
MemberBecause people will bitch regardless of what anyone does they don't like. You can give them all the money in the world, and they'll still whine about it.
Like the old saying goes "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time."
Mairo
JanitorI guess it's easy to get loss with so much text.
Compromise is that admins rule it one way and lock the tags to avoid tag wars over the content. Like Eggplant said, ambiguous has specific purpose for characters without any kind of gender features at all, the purpose isn't to settle down fights with female looking characters. There has already been ruling on this, further discussion like this is only prolonging things without purpose, even if I can see that your intention would be to make even more parties happy.
FibS
Memberif you can tag a character's name when it isn't clear in the image - including when that character has been so transformed by style and species swaps as to otherwise be unrecognizable - then you can tag the character's sex / gender when it isn't clear in the picture too
time and time again we have seen that character sex is disproportionately incompatible with Tag What You See compared to all other tags, OBVIOUSLY TWYS is not sufficient to handle this situation, a new protocol needs to be implemented
The Shinx
MemberAnd what, pray tell, kind of system would you use? Just saying 'There's needs to be change', but offering not ideas on how to do such is just useless.
IUseArchBtw
Memberwhy are we still arguing about this, lore gender doesn't matter, and it's not a given rule that every tag system has to have, why can't people accept this
RedMidget
MemberWell, why not make character gender tags part of the exception that covers character names?
After all, character name tags didn't always have that exception to TWYS.
The Shinx
MemberSure, let's test that in theory:
Let's say I'm an artist and I draw Fox and Star Fox. I make fox very pretty and more towards the female form. Than let say I post said pic of Fox. Does it goes under male or female tag?
RedMidget
MemberIt depends what you as the artist intend really. Girly man? Male. Girly girl? female. Something in-between? One of the other gender tags available.
Ideally, as with character names, the gender of said characters in said picture would be taken from the source tags of said picture, or from the "mouth" of the artist of said picture, or from supplementary material. If there are no tags or info or what-have-you at the source, then TWYS will become the default go-to method of tagging for that image.
The Shinx
MemberMy goal would be to break the system with the idea you had. More in point - using gender tag base on name would backfire greatly because I can take a given char and give it a different gender.
In my example, I took a male char and turn it female. By this system, they have to tag it male because the char is male by lore. Which would curse issues for folks looking for a different gender char of X.
And no, there doesn't need to have three systems for this site or any site for that matter. By your logic, we should be tagging by lore. But we should also tag by what an artist said as well. And than we have TWYS as well.
Ever heard of the old saying "too many cooks spoil the broth."? Because you're going to ruin a site for the sake of an artist getting uppery because of a tag.
IUseArchBtw
MemberNames are either female or male names based on culture, there are no male or female names, my name is Louvel which isn't very manly in America but common in France, this argument is not valid
RedMidget
MemberOh no, I didn't mean directly link the Gender and Character Name tags, I mean allow the Gender Tags the same exception from TWYS as Character Names
My Logic is that we carry over any marker of gender identity from source tags or descriptions, in order to prevent issues like this, as was done before with the character names exception to TWYS.
This is hardly a case of "Too many cooks". I'm not suggesting some insane FA style free-for-all.
This is practically the same as things are done now, but gender tags would fall under the same exception that has been used for character names for five years now.
MissChu
MemberThis is all pointless, really. The tags were locked in by an admin, I sincerely doubt they're going to be changed. If you don't like how Ratte ruled on the matter, make a complaint to the staff. Not much will likely happen, but it's more constructive than arguing back and forth in the comment section.
Lackwit
MemberBut Whygena didn't change it on a whim. You do know that right?
Then change it to ambiguous. The lack of tits makes it pretty hard to immediately discern, y'know. No visible genitalia, features aside from eyelashes, and last I checked, long eyelashes don't mean vagina.
I've offered a proven-to-work alternative. With all due respect, shutting one's ears to an alternative that has worked efficiently since 2010 is foolhardy.
Ambiguous gender. Fox can look feminine all they want, but until I see a tit, ball, dick or cunt I can't say what they are. Frankly, especially in the 2018 climate. So to make it as neutral as possible, "Ambiguous Gender" is the correct answer. A binary answer, is not. Especially when we do not have that system, explicitly, on e621.
Reginald (Reggie) is pretty much guaranteed masculine anywhere that uses it. But, you aren't incorrect, not entirely.
A reasonable reply. I should add once again that Reggie has been tagged male elsewhere and there is very little of him. With that in mind it stands to reason that the artist's depiction is consistent, and the character is indeed male.
And with all due respect to The Shinx, you can make the Rule 63 argument... Until the artist specifically says, "Uh, no that's... Not the case."
Which has been said.
This level of artist unfriendliness makes me very tempted to spread the word on just how anti-source/artist e621 is, honestly. It's rather absurd, and if the flagrant disregard for the artist were to be displayed at large I think many would withdraw their work from the site.
And to be frank, they deserve that power.
Because this site is useless without content, and art is content.
MissChu
MemberFor the sake of argument, Reggie can also be the shortened version of Regina.
IUseArchBtw
Member"until I see a tit" You know some species may not have poked out breasts right, distinguishable knockers are a human thing
IUseArchBtw
Memberalso it's been said like 3 times now, this isn't a artist oriented site, yes it can be used to find artists, but it's made for viewing. Calling it "anti artist" is apples to oranges and unfair, however you are correct about the Anti source tag point, but everyone knows that, because it's in the rules. If people pull their art from the site because of things that are already obvious and for whatever reason then so be it, less exposure for them for a dumb reason though.
NotMeNotYou
AdminWe already made a decision based on our rules. Any further discussion about our rules in the comment section will lead to records or bans.
If you want to argue about our rules take it to the forum where it belongs.
IUseArchBtw
Memberso about that airplane foob
Lackwit
Member-As you wish.-
https://e621.net/forum/show/256201
AoBird
MemberFlesh and blood person can not change gender?
Whygena
MemberThis has become a shitshow
Jinx Jackal
MemberPreviously on E621 Infinity War...
IUseArchBtw
Memberm-mr Esix i don't feel so good
furryloves
Memberyeah but at least fans a
re willing to fight the E621 mods on your behalf.,(Which is quite brave considering most of them are,jerks)
IUseArchBtw
Memberi'm pretty sure it's just 2 or 3 people who haven't read the rules. No need to call the Admins jerks for enforcing something. Are the police jerks for telling you not to do something you shouldn't. Like Come on man :(
furryloves
MemberGolden-Dragon
Member>typing that much out over being wrong about furry porn genders
user 290133
Memberi mean cmon, the description now literally says the gender of the character, fix ur shit
Average e621 User
Blocked8ch bread mentioning this for posterity https://8ch.net/fur/res/73050.html
RemingtonVSlice
MemberI'm surprised you havent taken the mistagged images down. I would have already, because its not their right to say what sex your characters are.
DBKing
Memberthats pretty damn cute
AROURAtheHYBRID
MemberThe comments are a warground.. I may put in a couple pennies and say I believe it's male/male or may make it harder to find this post is you blacklist female though. Which is why I think a whitelist would be a good feature. To say "even if stuff on this post is in blacklist, show it anyway" ... Come to think of it. I should probably ask the admins for that.
TO THE REQUEST MOBILE!!
AROURAtheHYBRID
Memberif it is, i'm dumb.
DieselWzl
MemberJust tested it, and holy crap, that works! Wow, I never knew that was a thing you could do with the blacklist. Bless you.
user 209420
Memberstill cute
Bongani
MemberIndeed. Each line in the blacklist is treated as a separate argument, so you can blacklist either in general with one tag/line or more specifically by adding tags and addenda on one line.
seanseal
MemberGuess discussion of the gender isn't allowed lol
OK, haven't used this site in a while, I suppose this is my key to leave. Bye boys.
seanseal
MemberReally bois
seanseal
MemberLocked. Well then.
Zipperozic
MemberYour avatar is a reaction image to your statement
animista666
BlockedCute
Lunacy
MemberSo you're saying that if I want to find this image, I am unable to unless I type in incorrect search terms?
Purolin
MemberI'm honestly extremely confused that a single image that got the wrong tags on it created an argument that has lasted for 2 months(ish).
But reading though all the comments was as gold.
I could read 5 more chapters of this.
If it was a book, at all.
lacergunn
MemberAnd now that I think about it, this whole argument boils down to "are traps gay?"
Max Gadget
MemberI love this mousie/ He's so cute/ I wanna taste him ;3
alecma
Memberwhen you see the female tag but somehow you know its a trap
Danoobsniper
BlockedWhile you all are fighting about something so little, im gonna enjoy watching Reggie getting fucked
Hooda the Antagonist
Memberfucking hate it when mods/admins abuse their roles
Bunnylicious
MemberWow, why is this tagged as female if the chest is clearly visible and is the chest of a male? And don't tell me that it isn't enough to tell someone's gender because the admins clearly think that's enough since they locked this other animation as ''male'' because the chest was visible.
post #1639855
Reinquished
MemberโNotmenotyou: Nobody cares how tough you think you are as long as you have a pony avatar.โ
Very unprofessional...
user 290934
Memberlol
Reinquished
MemberOnly unprofessionals conspicuously downvote logical comments calling them out lol
Ctf 2 fort Zombie
BlockedSo, is this Reggie's official boyfriend, is is he another fuck buddy
USBees
Memberpost #1166082
Nevar forget
๐ฟ
LurkingLupinoyd
MemberI have traveled the mines of madness, oh the things I have seen! (referring to comments, not Whygena's animation)
Reptard
BlockedNot according to anyone who uses the site.
user 22273
MemberI use the site, and it's a mess. Trying to exclude content I do not want to see or finding content I want to see is colossal pain in ass and requires hopping through fifty loopholes because people are allowed to tag whatever hell they want.
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