This is something I noticed recently that bugs the hell out of me.

https://e621.net/wiki/show?title=kitsune

According to the Wiki itself, ""Kitsune" is the Japanese word for "fox", but for the purposes of e621, the tag will be used in the somewhat inaccurate way English-speakers have appropriated the term: to specifically refer to the trickster spirits from Japanese mythology known to take the form of foxes."

And yet, in spite of someone clearly taking the time to read and understand that, Riversyde aliased Kitsune to Fox, 2 years ago.

https://e621.net/tag_alias?query=Kitsune&aliased_to=&user=&approved=all&order=tag

This should be corrected posthaste. While all kitsune are, in fact, foxes, not all foxes are in fact kitsune. I want an easy way to search for my many-tailed magical Japanese foxes without finding Arctica Sparkle, damnit!

Or just search fox multiple_tails or fox multiple_tails solo

I am inclined to agree that it should be an implication because isn't a kitsune pretty much like another species of fox?

If we can actually get some sort of standards for what a kitsune actually is I think it should have a separate tag. Nobody would rather search bear white_fur than polar_bear and I'd imagine this would be the same sort of thing.

Rainbow_Dash said:
I am inclined to agree that it should be an implication because isn't a kitsune pretty much like another species of fox?

Not really, in the Japanese language they don't really differentiate between fox vs. mythological fox, it's all kitsune.
The belief being that all foxes are in fact kitsune, which is just their word for fox.

The multiple tails is a part of the mythology, but a single tailed fox in the japanese language is still kitsune.

So, in response to the OP, all foxes are in fact kitsune.

Not in terms of original or intended meaning but in terms of internet culture and the majority of drawn kistunes, are they always drawn with multiple tails?

Rainbow_Dash said:
Not in terms of original or intended meaning but in terms of internet culture and the majority of drawn kistunes, are they always drawn with multiple tails?

Nope. Young kitsune (fe. Shippou) only have one tail, and therefore it's impossible to tell the difference between a fox and kitsune just by TWYS.
Which is why those were originally aliased, as far as I can remember. I'm against separating them.

https://e621.net/forum/show/18700

Genjar said:
Nope. Young kitsune (fe. Shippou) only have one tail, and therefore it's impossible to tell the difference between a fox and kitsune just by TWYS.
Which is why those were originally aliased, as far as I can remember. I'm against separating them.

Then there you go, alias should stay

Rainbow_Dash said:
Then there you go, alias should stay

Actually, go back and read the thread: it was overall determined that kitsune should stay, but then Ippiki came in and necro'd it sneakily and Riversyde pushed it through rapidly, pushing their opinions on us all regarding the tag. :/

123easy said:
Actually, go back and read the thread: it was overall determined that kitsune should stay, but then Ippiki came in and necro'd it sneakily and Riversyde pushed it through rapidly, pushing their opinions on us all regarding the tag. :/

Only problem we are having with keeping the tag alive is that it's hard to tag without just being a fox with more than one tail, which means miles tails prower will always be tagged a kitsune

Halite said:
Not really, in the Japanese language they don't really differentiate between fox vs. mythological fox, it's all kitsune.
The belief being that all foxes are in fact kitsune, which is just their word for fox.

The multiple tails is a part of the mythology, but a single tailed fox in the japanese language is still kitsune.

So, in response to the OP, all foxes are in fact kitsune.

But you have to remember that this is not a japanese website, and the term kitsune relating to multi-tailed foxes is too widely accepted in the porn community to try to change at this point. Kitsune and Fox should preferably stay seperated.

Wolfpool said:
But you have to remember that this is not a japanese website, and the term kitsune relating to multi-tailed foxes is too widely accepted in the porn community to try to change at this point. Kitsune and Fox should preferably stay seperated.

Even in the porn community, it's also single tailed foxes.

Halite said:
Even in the porn community, it's also single tailed foxes.

I've been reading and consuming internet pornography for longer than the government says I should have. Approaching two decades now.

I have, in fact, seen single-tailed foxes referred to as kitsune; but only when they were specifically young/weak/depowered magical foxes of Japanese origin. (Or, in one notable case I wish I could find the story of again, a westerner white guy who was turned into a kitsune by his kitsune lover, at the cost of her burning up all but one of her tails.)

That's the distinction: a kitsune, which almost always but not quite always, is a multi-tailed fox. It is always a magical fox with its origin in Japanese folklore.

Miles Prower (Tails) is not a kitsune, no more than your average nonmagical vixen hussy is a kitsune.

So, they should be un-aliased. In fact, the community evidently decided to keep them separate long ago, as evidenced in their wiki page specifically stating that:

"Kitsune" is the Japanese word for "fox", but for the purposes of e621, the tag will be used in the somewhat inaccurate way English-speakers have appropriated the term: to specifically refer to the trickster spirits from Japanese mythology known to take the form of foxes.

Perhaps I could put it best this way:

Why isn't "Rev" aliased to "Fox?" Rev is, after all, Norwegian for Fox.

It's because e621 is not a Norwegian-language website, just as it is not a Japanese-language website. For that matter, "Kitsune" is not Japanese for Fox, "狐" is Japanese for Fox.

"Kitsune" is the English bastardization of that Japanese character, and has in the English-reading internet culture (e621 is an English language website,) come to mean, specifically, those (almost always, but not always) multi-tailed foxes which are (always) magical and of Japanese origin.

It should be used as such. e621 is not a Japanese-language website, and any Japanese-primary-speaking persons searching e621 for their furry pornography using the English language will know that "Fox" is English for Fox, and search for it accordingly under that term, unless they are specifically searching for anthropomorphic pornography of the magical, multi-tailed foxes coming out of their own mythology, in which case they will likely use Kitsune, and find themselves as immediately stymied in their efforts as I did.

ShadowDragon8685 said:
I've been reading and consuming internet pornography for longer than the government says I should have. Approaching two decades now.

I have, in fact, seen single-tailed foxes referred to as kitsune; but only when they were specifically young/weak/depowered magical foxes of Japanese origin. (Or, in one notable case I wish I could find the story of again, a westerner white guy who was turned into a kitsune by his kitsune lover, at the cost of her burning up all but one of her tails.)

That's the distinction: a kitsune, which almost always but not quite always, is a multi-tailed fox. It is always a magical fox with its origin in Japanese folklore.

Miles Prower (Tails) is not a kitsune, no more than your average nonmagical vixen hussy is a kitsune.

So, they should be un-aliased. In fact, the community evidently decided to keep them separate long ago, as evidenced in their wiki page specifically stating that:

Perhaps I could put it best this way:

Why isn't "Rev" aliased to "Fox?" Rev is, after all, Norwegian for Fox.

It's because e621 is not a Norwegian-language website, just as it is not a Japanese-language website. For that matter, "Kitsune" is not Japanese for Fox, "狐" is Japanese for Fox.

"Kitsune" is the English bastardization of that Japanese character, and has in the English-reading internet culture (e621 is an English language website,) come to mean, specifically, those (almost always, but not always) multi-tailed foxes which are (always) magical and of Japanese origin.

It should be used as such. e621 is not a Japanese-language website, and any Japanese-primary-speaking persons searching e621 for their furry pornography using the English language will know that "Fox" is English for Fox, and search for it accordingly under that term, unless they are specifically searching for anthropomorphic pornography of the magical, multi-tailed foxes coming out of their own mythology, in which case they will likely use Kitsune, and find themselves as immediately stymied in their efforts as I did.

So what visual distinction can we use to differentiate between a fox, and a kitsune?
If there isn't one, then there shouldn't be a separate tag.

Rainbow_Dash said:
Only problem we are having with keeping the tag alive is that it's hard to tag without just being a fox with more than one tail, which means miles tails prower will always be tagged a kitsune

Then simply accept some inaccuracy and make Kitsune specifically multiple-tailed foxes. Those who are specifically searching for the one-tailed Kitsune from InuYasha will probably know his name and search for him by character name, and those who want to find Kitsune porn that doesn't include Tails from Sonic can use -Miles_Prower.

Or simply differentiate intelligently based on those specifically widely known characters, removing the Kitsune tag from Miles even though he has more than one tail because everybody who knows the character in passing knows that he does not fit the definition of a japanese trickster shapeshifter magic fox.

ShadowDragon8685 said:
Then simply accept some inaccuracy and make Kitsune specifically multiple-tailed foxes. Those who are specifically searching for the one-tailed Kitsune from InuYasha will probably know his name and search for him by character name, and those who want to find Kitsune porn that doesn't include Tails from Sonic can use -Miles_Prower.

Or simply differentiate intelligently based on those specifically widely known characters, removing the Kitsune tag from Miles even though he has more than one tail because everybody who knows the character in passing knows that he does not fit the definition of a japanese trickster shapeshifter magic fox.

The reason our tag system is so good is because we don't "simply accept inaccuracy".
As for differentiating based on "well known characters" that's outside knowledge, and isn't TWYS.

Halite said:
So what visual distinction can we use to differentiate between a fox, and a kitsune?
If there isn't one, then there shouldn't be a separate tag.

If magic or other supernatural factors are involved is one way.

Halite said:So what visual distinction can we use to differentiate between a fox, and a kitsune?
If there isn't one, then there shouldn't be a separate tag.

Then explain to me why, the other day, when I went to search for Kitsune specifically, I went "what the fuck is this bullshit? Why is Tails here? Why are all these other foxes one-tails?" then, upon discovering that "Kitsune" had been aliased to "Fox," immediately gone "that's retarded." And then, upon showing that to a friend of mine who, like myself, was in the mood for some multiple-tailed mystic foxes, said "that's bullshit."

Clearly, we were able to identify at an immediate visual glance that none of the images being served to us by our search for "Kitsune" were, in fact, Kitsune.

It's like saying "what visual distinction can we use to differentiate between a 1980s Ford Mustang and a 1980s Merkur XR4Ti." If you're extremely ill-educated about the differences, you might not be able to tell the difference, but to anyone with any familiarity with those vehicles at all, the differences are obvious, starting with the rear wing and proceeding through the badging and trim.

Halite said:
The reason our tag system is so good is because we don't "simply accept inaccuracy".
As for differentiating based on "well known characters" that's outside knowledge, and isn't TWYS.

Then that policy is stupid if it doesn't have any wiggle room for well-known characters. But TWYS is still not being served: because Kitsune, specifically in the context of English internet dwellers searching for pornography of Kitsune, is not serving them what they want to see, because the tag has been inappropriately aliased.

123easy said:
If magic or other supernatural factors are involved is one way.

Possible, but I doubt that would be a sufficient quantity of tags to satisfy those asking for it.

ShadowDragon8685 said:
Then explain to me why, the other day, when I went to search for Kitsune specifically, I went "what the fuck is this bullshit? Why is Tails here? Why are all these other foxes one-tails?" then, upon discovering that "Kitsune" had been aliased to "Fox," immediately gone "that's retarded." And then, upon showing that to a friend of mine who, like myself, was in the mood for some multiple-tailed mystic foxes, said "that's bullshit."

Clearly, we were able to identify at an immediate visual glance that none of the images being served to us by our search for "Kitsune" were, in fact, Kitsune.

It's like saying "what visual distinction can we use to differentiate between a 1980s Ford Mustang and a 1980s Merkur XR4Ti." If you're extremely ill-educated about the differences, you might not be able to tell the difference, but to anyone with any familiarity with those vehicles at all, the differences are obvious, starting with the rear wing and proceeding through the badging and trim.

I'm not saying there isn't a difference, I'm saying I don't know them, and in order to separate the tags there has to be an accurate means defined for people to follow so they can tag properly.
If we can't point at something in am image and say "this is why it's a kitsune, not just a fox" then how can we keep the tagging accurate?

ShadowDragon8685 said:
I have, in fact, seen single-tailed foxes referred to as kitsune; but only when they were specifically young/weak/depowered magical foxes of Japanese origin.

http://www.deviantart.com/?qh=&section=&global=1&q=kitsune

Seems to me that more than half of them have a single tail, and are indistinguishable from fox anthros.

ShadowDragon8685 said:
Then that policy is stupid if it doesn't have any wiggle room for well-known characters. But TWYS is still not being served: because Kitsune, specifically in the context of English internet dwellers searching for pornography of Kitsune, is not serving them what they want to see, because the tag has been inappropriately aliased.

How about before you declare the main tagging rule of the website as "stupid" you get a few hundred tag edits under your belt.
That way maybe you'd understand the motivation behind it.

Halite said:
How about before you declare the main tagging rule of the website as "stupid" you get a few hundred tag edits under your belt.
That way maybe you'd understand the motivation behind it.

I've been using e621 for years, buddy. Long enough to remember a time when plugging "Kitsune" into the search bar actually returned the results I was looking for!

Just because I don't particular feel the need to meddle with it (until this mess,) doesn't mean I don't reserve unto myself the right to call "Stupid" when I see it. In fact, I said it was stupid when it rolled out, but I lived with it, because it was serving well enough.

Well enough, that is, until now. Because I'm searching for Kitsune, but I sure as hell ain't seeing them tagged properly. Because aliasing Kitsune to Fox is about the stupidest way to do things.

You want a hard and fast rule? Slap "Kitsune" on every fox with more than one tail. Sure, it's inaccurate. But it's a hell of a lot less inaccurate than aliasing Kitsune to fox, which makes precisely as much sense as aliasing "Lion" to "Cat."

ShadowDragon8685 said:
You want a hard and fast rule? Slap "Kitsune" on every fox with more than one tail.

And then we're back to where it was two years ago: it will be constantly mistagged, and will require daily clean up.

Instead you could just search for fox multiple_tails. I think someone already said that.

Genjar said:
And then we're back to where it was two years ago: it will be constantly mistagged, and will require daily clean up.

Instead you could just search for fox multiple_tails. I think someone already said that.

And I could also search for "Bear white_fur" rather than searching for "Polar_bear".

It is mistagged now. It is horrendously mistagged now, because as it is, Kitsune is serving up everything vulpine, which is not what the word means!

At the very least, it should be aliased to invalid tag over fox, as fox is incorrect for alias. Implication, perhaps, but not alias.

123easy said:
At the very least, it should be aliased to invalid tag over fox, as fox is incorrect for alias. Implication, perhaps, but not alias.

The alias to fox works fine for keeping tags accurate, since kitsune are foxes.

ShadowDragon8685 said:
I've been using e621 for years, buddy. Long enough to remember a time when plugging "Kitsune" into the search bar actually returned the results I was looking for!

Just because I don't particular feel the need to meddle with it (until this mess,) doesn't mean I don't reserve unto myself the right to call "Stupid" when I see it. In fact, I said it was stupid when it rolled out, but I lived with it, because it was serving well enough.

Well enough, that is, until now. Because I'm searching for Kitsune, but I sure as hell ain't seeing them tagged properly. Because aliasing Kitsune to Fox is about the stupidest way to do things.

You want a hard and fast rule? Slap "Kitsune" on every fox with more than one tail. Sure, it's inaccurate. But it's a hell of a lot less inaccurate than aliasing Kitsune to fox, which makes precisely as much sense as aliasing "Lion" to "Cat."

Bad tagging is never the right choice.
Nothing is currently mistagged, as the tags in place are all accurate.
You're simply unable to search for the specific tag you want to because it's not a tag anymore.

Halite said:
The alias to fox works fine for keeping tags accurate, since kitsune are foxes.

Kitsune are Foxes in the same way that squares are rectangles.

That is the exact metaphor that is used to describe how Aliases works: that one should not alias "Square" to "Rectangle," because while all squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares.

All Kitsune are foxes, but not all Foxes are kitsune! Why is this so bloody hard for you to grasp?!

Bad tagging is never the right choice.
Nothing is currently mistagged, as the tags in place are all accurate.
You're simply unable to search for the specific tag you want to because it's not a tag anymore.

Bag tagging is what's already in place, because "Kitsune" is returning literally every fox on e621, which is not what the word means!

And, I feel obliged to point out again that several years ago, e621 already reached a consensus on this issue: https://e621.net/wiki/show?title=kitsune That consensus being that "Kitsune" would be used to refer to Kitsune in the way that English speakers have come to understand them (multi-tailed supernatural foxes of Japanes origins) rather than just "Foxes."

And then Riversyde went and aliased it anyway, despite the instructions specifically explaining why that was not what was being done.

In Japanese mythology, all foxes are kitsune.

Regardless of that, you still haven't listed an accurate method of differentiating between a fox and a kitsune which is needed if we're going to separate the tags.

I'm not saying we can't, I'm saying I don't know what criteria we can use, and until we have that criteria then removing the alias will only make things worse.

Halite said:
In Japanese mythology, all foxes are kitsune.

Which has precisely as much bearing on aliasing Fox to Kitsune as nothing, because European and North American viewpoints on Foxes disagree.

Regardless of that, you still haven't listed an accurate method of differentiating between a fox and a kitsune which is needed if we're going to separate the tags.

I'm not saying we can't, I'm saying I don't know what criteria we can use, and until we have that criteria then removing the alias will only make things worse.

I've already listed two sets of criterion, both of which evidently don't suit you.

Criterion 1: Trust the person doing the tagging to know what's a Kitsune and what isn't (IE, Miles Prower not being a Kitsune.)
Criterion 2: if it's a vulpine and it has more than one tail, it's a kitsune and trust the person doing the searching to use -Miles_Prower.

ShadowDragon8685 said:
Which has precisely as much bearing on aliasing Fox to Kitsune as nothing, because European and North American viewpoints on Foxes disagree.

I've already listed two sets of criterion, both of which evidently don't suit you.

Criterion 1: Trust the person doing the tagging to know what's a Kitsune and what isn't (IE, Miles Prower not being a Kitsune.)
Criterion 2: if it's a vulpine and it has more than one tail, it's a kitsune and trust the person doing the searching to use -Miles_Prower.

I said accurate method.
Your option 1 isn't valid under TWYS rules.
Your option 2 isn't accurate.

Halite said:
I said accurate method.
Your option 1 isn't valid under TWYS rules.
Your option 2 isn't accurate.

Then something has to give, because all foxes are not kitsune.

2 works for TWYS, because if you see more than one tail, you know it's a Kitsune. But you say it's not accurate.

But in the same post, you've responded to an accurate method and denounced it as not fitting TWYS.

You've created a catch-22 scenario here. Are you incapable of grasping and understanding that? Or are you intentionally being obtuse and stating contradictory requirements?

And for that matter, even if option 2 isn't accurate, it's still much more accurate - or, to be pedantic about it, much less inaccurate, than the situation we have now, which is predicated on some sperglord saying "Kitsune is Japanese for fox" and ignoring the fact that e621 is not a japanese-language website and the standing precedent that e621 didn't give a damn about what Kitsune meant in Japanese language, but that it was going to use the English-language understanding of Kitsune.

Halite said:
In Japanese mythology, all foxes are kitsune.

Kitsune are fox spirits (youkai), not foxes themselves. They are a mythological being in the same catagory as pegasi and griffons. The average fox was not a kitsune, though if they lived long enough they would evolve, much as the bakeneko and nekomata (similar but separate youkai) did, and in fact they share a similar element in that their number of tails increases as they age. Please stop saying this fallacious line in various forms.

123easy said:
Kitsune are fox spirits (youkai), not foxes themselves. They are a mythological being in the same catagory as pegasi and griffons. The average fox was not a kitsune, though if they lived long enough they would evolve, much as the bakeneko and nekomata (similar but separate youkai) did, and in fact they share a similar element in that their number of tails increases as they age. Please stop saying this fallacious line in various forms.

"...the word kitsune is often translated as fox spirit. However, this does not mean that kitsune are ghosts, nor that they are fundamentally different from regular foxes. Because the word spirit is used to reflect a state of knowledge or enlightenment, all long-lived foxes gain supernatural abilities."

These are not mythical beasts like griffons or pterippi, they're foxes that have reach an age where they achieve a state of enlightenment.
This is no more mythical than the state of enlightenment that Buddhists seek to achieve.
Not even close to the same as a half lion half eagle, or a winged horse.

ShadowDragon8685 said:
Then something has to give, because all foxes are not kitsune.

2 works for TWYS, because if you see more than one tail, you know it's a Kitsune. But you say it's not accurate.

But in the same post, you've responded to an accurate method and denounced it as not fitting TWYS.

You've created a catch-22 scenario here. Are you incapable of grasping and understanding that? Or are you intentionally being obtuse and stating contradictory requirements?

And for that matter, even if option 2 isn't accurate, it's still much more accurate - or, to be pedantic about it, much less inaccurate, than the situation we have now, which is predicated on some sperglord saying "Kitsune is Japanese for fox" and ignoring the fact that e621 is not a japanese-language website and the standing precedent that e621 didn't give a damn about what Kitsune meant in Japanese language, but that it was going to use the English-language understanding of Kitsune.

It's not contradictory to require that the criteria must fit both tagging rules, and be accurate.

So, this has been a topic of discussion in Committee for a couple of days now. This is what we have figured out:

A fox is a fox is a fox is a fox. There is no two ways about it, whether it has one tail, or fifty.

A kitsune is a Japanese fox, one endowed with magical powers and typically with multiple tails. With the exception of the magical powers, there is no usable difference between a kitsune and a fox, no matter how many tails they have.

So, while we can remove the alias, we are stuck on defining it. If we said that a fox who demonstrates magical powers would be defined as a kitsune, this would potentially cause some upset for the kitsune who, in the context of the post, are not actively using magic or doing something supernatural (and get tagged as a fox).

So we have a couple of options:

1. Leave it as is which, even though it should be separate, would prevent tagging issues in the future when people argue over if something is technically kitsune or a fox.

2. Do away with the alias and implicate it, and actively work on making sure that we stick with TWYS and not tagging kitsune unless there is some mystical aspect of some kind (or alternatively, finding a better definition for kitsune that would help this issue).

ShadowDragon8685 said:
Criterion 1: Trust the person doing the tagging to know what's a Kitsune and what isn't (IE, Miles Prower not being a Kitsune.)

This didn't work two years ago, so I doubt that it'd work any better now. Average user does not know how to tag 'kitsune'. And I'm not keen on any ideas that would create even more work for the taggers, not when there's already so many things to clean up.

Criterion 2: if it's a vulpine and it has more than one tail, it's a kitsune and trust the person doing the searching to use -Miles_Prower.

post #70216 post #170861

Left one's not tagged as a kitsune, but right one is? As Halite said... not accurate.

EDFDarkAngel1 said:
A kitsune is a Japanese fox, one endowed with magical powers and typically with multiple tails.

Yep, that's how the word is often used in West.
Though in Japanese, kitsune (狐) simply means fox. There's no literal distinction between a feral fox and folklore one.

2. Do away with the alias and implicate it, and actively work on making sure that we stick with TWYS and not tagging kitsune unless there is some mystical aspect of some kind (or alternatively, finding a better definition for kitsune that would help this issue).

Kitsune characters will be tagged as kitsune instead of fox, even when there's no mythical aspect. I'm not necessarily against it, but... it'll be a mess. And someone will have to clean it up.

It might also lead to problems with several other aliases, such as tanuki/raccoon_dog.

Genjar said:
...
Kitsune characters will be tagged as kitsune instead of fox, even when there's no mythical aspect. I'm not necessarily against it, but... it'll be a mess. And someone will have to clean it up.
...

Mostly this, I'm fine with using that as the distinction between the tags if everyone is.
I do worry about complaints that it's not tagged sufficiently, or arguments rising out of it being tagged or not.

It seems to be the only demonstrable differentiation possible to separate the tags.

I wasn't particularly satisfied when I found out that kitsune was aliased to fox either. The bastardized English usage of the word definitely is not directly interchangeable with 'fox.' The word has definitely taken on its own meaning, and a natively English-speaking user of the word very likely understands and intends to invoke the word's distinct Japanese folklore affiliations.

The problem with Japanese folklore's kitsune, however, is that a kitsune's main form is still a feral fox indistinguishable from any normal fox, unless the kitsune is magically powerful or of certain age (these conditions are usually, but not always, mutually inclusive) such that it grows another tail (IIRC, ~100 years per tail). Even then, the foremost kitsune magic is shapeshifting, so it is very much so conceivable that a kitsune with any magical power can disguise itself as a normal fox by hiding its extra tails. In short, we cannot tell a false negative (single tail, feral form kitsune) from a true negative (ordinary feral fox). In this tagging situation, a picture of a feral fox with no solid implication of kitsune elements should always be tagged as kitsune, irrespective of outside knowledge and minor subjectivities, as is always the case with TWYS.

We can still accommodate anthro and feral foxes with the kitsune tag, provided some accompanying visual evidence, such as:

- multiple fox tails, up to nine. I don't specifically remember if Japanese folklore allowed for kitsune with more than nine tails, or if that's a more modern twist. Still, artistic license and merit can excuse kitsune with more than nine tails, but I think it's a reasonable hard and fast rule.

- supernatural magic. This was also already mentioned, but I want to specifically mention that shapeshifting (as well as conjuring illusions), foxfires, mind control (seduction), and of course possession are all major kitsune magics.
-> shapeshifting is primarily between fox and human forms, but artistic license can twist this into anything betwixt and aside. However, folklore suggests that kitsune shapeshifting can be incomplete as well, such that a human-form kitsune can be spotted by their tail or that an enthralled person can be shocked into noticing a kitsune's fox(-like) attributes.
-> foxfires should lump together all sorts of floating and attached glowing orbs, flames, and lanterns, even though all those can be distinct magics. Nevertheless, foxfire can reference such magics not created by kitsune too, or even represent normal spirits or the mere presence of a spiritually/magically rich environment, analogous to ectoplasm.
-> mind control is mostly limited to human-form kitsune females seducing, hypnotizing, or otherwise brainwashing men. Kitsune are traditionally female for this reason.
-> like many other Japanese spirits, kitsune can possess others, but this supernatural aspect may be supplanted and subverted with mind control magic (i.e., mind control achieves similar results to possession, so kitsune may use mind control instead of possession in some myths without compromising the underlying mythology).

- Japanese (folklore) theme. This is more subjective, but distinctly Japanese elements directly give credence to the possibility that a fox should be considered a kitsune, given the English usage of the word. These elements especially include traditional Japanese garb but also include all other traditional Japanese items. Even distinctly eastern art styles give credence to foxes being kitsune.

- kitsune masks, markings, and paint. These cases are toward the periphery of the kitsune tag, but kitsune are often playfully evoked through costume. Conversely, such aesthetic touches can also give a stronger impression of a disguised, human-form kitsune (i.e., the person is a kitsune rather than just dressing like one).

For all that context, most of it won't enter obviously into tagging decisions where we intuitively perceive that a kitsune is present. Which is why I included the broader criteria of Japanese traditional and folklore themes as well as Japanese art styles in my breakdown. At the heart of the matter is how we interpret the word kitsune. I argued above that native English-speakers will imbue the word with distinct connotations from its recognized origin. Therefore, I will put forward that kitsune should be defined as "(Japanese) fox" or "Japanese fox" on this website, all ancillary tagging conventions and baggage included.

Corroborate here.

I would like to caution our users who have done more research than others. The administration is aware that kitsune is simply another word for fox, but I need to remind everyone that e621's tagging system is based more on usability, rather than accuracy.

In popular culture (dubbed the "west" in an above post), a kitsune is a mythical fox. Realistically, it is the same as a fox, however that is not how it will be used for the most part. We will have people typing in "kitsune" and expecting the anime-ish style mythical fox with multiple tails, not just expecting posts of normal foxes.

I just want, when people are responding to this topic, to stop hashing out "well, it's just another word for fox!". Yes, that's true, but that's not how it's going to be used on this site.

With that being said, we need to look for the exceptions: a kitsune with no markings and a single tail (to see if there is anything to separate it consistently from other plain foxes), and a fox with multiple tails doing something supernatural (to see if there is something that separates it from a kitsune).

If there is nothing that can consistently identify one from the other, we may have to maintain this alias in an effort to be fair to everyone.

Please post your constructive thoughts!

If there is nothing that can consistently identify one from the other, we may have to maintain this alias in an effort to be fair to everyone.

This might not be the optimum default solution..

EDFDarkAngel1 said:
but I need to remind everyone that e621's tagging system is based more on usability, rather than accuracy.

May I quote this to emphasis the goal of the a tagging system, which would be to receive the expected results of entering a tag?

I can't absolutely say for sure, but don't most people who search for "Kitsune" want to find a multiple tailed fox? If so, then I would recommend using an implication to fox + multiple tail and keep the tag. Until at least comes the time e621 can handle branching aliases.

Really, I can't see a problem with it being dealiased.

People searching for kitsune are going to want to see something that's noticeably a mythological fox rather than something that could be, so the point of not being able to know if a one-tailed fox is a kitsune or not is rather irrelevant.

Just using "fox multiple_tails" is hardly a helpful in most cases because there could easily be an image with a one-tailed fox and a three-tailed elephant. It's for these same reasons we deemed that using loli is overall more convenient than using young female

Last of all, it won't cause any issues to anybody who just wants to search fox because an implication will still be in place. I just don't see what the problem with solving an issue for a small number of users without causing any harm to the rest of the userbase.

Aurali said:
...
May I quote this to emphasis the goal of the a tagging system, which would be to receive the expected results of entering a tag?

I can't absolutely say for sure, but don't most people who search for "Kitsune" want to find a multiple tailed fox? If so, then I would recommend using an implication to fox + multiple tail and keep the tag. Until at least comes the time e621 can handle branching aliases.

Problem there is multi-tailed foxes that aren't kitsune, and upsetting the fans/owners of those foxes by mistagging.

Saffron said:
Really, I can't see a problem with it being dealiased.

People searching for kitsune are going to want to see something that's noticeably a mythological fox rather than something that could be, so the point of not being able to know if a one-tailed fox is a kitsune or not is rather irrelevant.

Just using "fox multiple_tails" is hardly a helpful in most cases because there could easily be an image with a one-tailed fox and a three-tailed elephant. It's for these same reasons we deemed that using loli is overall more convenient than using young female

Last of all, it won't cause any issues to anybody who just wants to search fox because an implication will still be in place.

What is an example of "noticeably mythological?"

EDFDarkAngel1 said:
What is an example of "noticeably mythological?"

Well, multiple tails would be the telltale sign. I'm not too familiar with kitsunes other than reading this thread and the lead paragraph of the Wikipedia article.

EDFDarkAngel1 said:
What is an example of "noticeably mythological?"

A fox that can fly by twirling its tails in the air... wait...

Saffron said:
Really, I can't see a problem with it being dealiased.

My main problem with it, as I've said before, is that it's bound to get mistagged a lot. There are many users who think that all foxes are kitsune (and therefore should be tagged as such), not to mention that character owners and artists are going to tag their characters as Kitsune. Even if they don't look or act like one.

Maybe I'm just burned out. I've spent most of the past month cleaning up mistags, and have got into many tag wars about species before..

EDFDarkAngel1 said:
What is an example of "noticeably mythological?"

I think abadbird summarized that well, few posts earlier. Fox masks, fox magic, fox-fire, shapeshifting, things like that.

Genjar said:
My main problem with it, as I've said before, is that it's bound to get mistagged a lot. There are many users who think that all foxes are kitsune (and therefore should be tagged as such), not to mention that character owners and artists are going to tag their characters as Kitsune. Even if they don't look or act like one.

This