Topic: [BUR] Retire x_penetrating_y tags OR invalidate all other x_verbing_y tags

The bulk update request #12762 is pending approval.

remove alias m/p/fm (0) -> male_penetrating_female (325209)
remove alias ♂_penetrating_♀ (0) -> male_penetrating_female (325209)
remove implication male_penetrating_female (325209) -> female_penetrated (368745)
remove implication male_penetrating_female (325209) -> male_penetrating (597057)
remove implication male_penetrating_female (325209) -> male/female (787996)
remove implication male_penetrating_female (325209) -> sex (1202429)

Reason:

alias male_penetrating_female -> penetration

This was brought up in topic #60466, and I'd like to put in an official request for it. (Due to the command limit on BURs, I can't cover everything in one BUR; I will create more if there is support.)

x_verbing_y tags are redundant with x_verbing +y_verbed combo searches, so they create unnecessary tag bloat. Moreover, users keep making more of them, for increasingly dubious verbs and combos, including mixing form and gender to create even more exponential bloat. Veteran users and moderators hate this, but despite their objections, people keep doing it faster than janitors can clean it up.

I see these same veteran users arguing that x_penetrating_y deserves to be an exception to this. However, I believe it is in fact the root of this problem, and needs to be deleted along with the rest. x_penetrating_y has explicit site support by the fact that it has aliases and implications, and its wiki pages make no mention of it being the only valid x_verbing_y tag. This inspires users to make analogous x_verbing_y tags by sending the erroneous message that x_penetrating_y constitutes precedent, rather than an exception. And why would they do otherwise? It's a completely logical conclusion to draw from what they see.

If we want to end the deluge of x_verbing_y tags, we need to tear the problem out by the root. We need to remove all of them, including x_penetrating_y. I know people like them, but they're just not worth the trouble.

Male_penetrating_female has 320,000+ uses. Male_penetrating_male has 220,000+ uses. These are useful tags that have become a core part of the way people navigate the site.

donkdewd said:
Male_penetrating_female has 320,000+ uses. Male_penetrating_male has 220,000+ uses. These are useful tags that have become a core part of the way people navigate the site.

pussy had over 100,000 uses and we still changed it. "People are using it" is not enough reason to keep a problematic and unnecessary tag. Is it really so useful that it's worth forcing janitors to play whack-a-mole with new x_verbing_y tags forever?

beholding said:
pussy had over 100,000 uses and we still changed it. "People are using it" is not enough reason to keep a problematic and unnecessary tag. Is it really so useful that it's worth forcing janitors to play whack-a-mole with new x_verbing_y tags forever?

That doesn't seem like a similar situation to me. Pussy to Vulva is a one-one alias. If you want to see a Pussy now you click "Vulva" instead and the exact same stuff comes up. Here, you are suggesting eliminating tags that have been used more than half a million times, and people will have to replace these tags by using more complicated search strings, which will generate somewhat different results. Weighing that inconvenience for general users against janitors and non-janitor users doing the ordinary gardening of updating tags is an easy call for me.

The bulk update request #12764 is pending approval.

Reason:

category gynomorph_raping_female -> invalid
category gynomorph_raping_male -> invalid
category gynomorph_raping_andromorph -> invalid
category gynomorph_raping_gynomorph -> invalid
category gynomorph_raping_herm -> invalid
category gynomorph_raping_maleherm -> invalid
category gynomorph_raping_ambiguous -> invalid
category herm_raping_female -> invalid
category herm_raping_male -> invalid
category herm_raping_andromorph -> invalid
category herm_raping_gynomorph -> invalid
category herm_raping_herm -> invalid
category herm_raping_maleherm -> invalid
category herm_raping_ambiguous -> invalid
category maleherm_raping_female -> invalid
category maleherm_raping_male -> invalid
category maleherm_raping_andromorph -> invalid
category maleherm_raping_gynomorph -> invalid
category maleherm_raping_herm -> invalid
category maleherm_raping_maleherm -> invalid
category maleherm_raping_ambiguous -> invalid

category ambiguous_raping_female -> invalid
category ambiguous_raping_male -> invalid
category ambiguous_raping_andromorph -> invalid
category ambiguous_raping_gynomorph -> invalid
category ambiguous_raping_herm -> invalid
category ambiguous_raping_maleherm -> invalid
category ambiguous_raping_ambiguous -> invalid
category anthro_raping_anthro -> invalid
category anthro_raping_feral -> invalid
category anthro_raping_human -> invalid
category anthro_raping_humanoid -> invalid
category anthro_raping_taur -> invalid
category feral_raping_anthro -> invalid
category feral_raping_feral -> invalid
category feral_raping_human -> invalid
category feral_raping_humanoid -> invalid
category feral_raping_taur -> invalid
category human_raping_anthro -> invalid
category human_raping_human -> invalid
category human_raping_humanoid -> invalid
category human_raping_taur -> invalid

category humanoid_raping_anthro -> invalid
category humanoid_raping_feral -> invalid
category humanoid_raping_human -> invalid
category humanoid_raping_humanoid -> invalid
category humanoid_raping_taur -> invalid
category taur_raping_anthro -> invalid
category taur_raping_feral -> invalid
category taur_raping_human -> invalid
category taur_raping_humanoid -> invalid
category taur_raping_taur -> invalid

Then let's vote on the alternative. According to topic #60466, all x_raping_y tags should be aliased away.

Putting them in the invalid category does nothing, they need to be aliased

donovan_dmc said:
Putting them in the invalid category does nothing, they need to be aliased

To what?

beholding said:
To what?

The first gender plus rape, e.g. male_rape
Also don't drag that whole mess into another topic, take it to its own topic, or better yet back to the topic you mentioned which is already focused on those tags
I'm also certain there are existing BURs for this, it's been a hot button topic for a decent amount of time

Also also, while updating existing wikis is one thing, why are you creating wikis pointing to topics
https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions?search[updater_id]=2093550

I'd argue neither should be done but creating wikis just to shove a topic number in them is definitely the worst of both

donovan_dmc said:
The first gender plus rape, e.g. male_rape

Done. Adjust your votes accordingly.

Also don't drag that whole mess into another topic, take it to its own topic, or better yet back to the topic you mentioned which is already focused on those tags

No. Both BURs are linked and relevant to one another. We have to do one or the other, so it is useful to have both vote totals next to each other for comparison.

(Making BURs outside the requests section has not had much success in my experience. I'd rather keep them separate.)

Also also, while updating existing wikis is one thing, why are you creating wikis pointing to topics
https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions?search[updater_id]=2093550

I'd argue neither should be done but creating wikis just to shove a topic number in them is definitely the worst of both

Given the hue and cry provoked by pussy -> vulva from users who had no idea such a thing was even being proposed, I think it's important to make consequential votes as visible as possible. The page can be cleared once the vote is resolved.

beholding said:
No. Both BURs are linked and relevant to one another. We have to do one or the other, so it is useful to have both vote totals next to each other for comparison.

It doesn't matter how related they are, you're intermingling both conversations and spreading it even further across a 27th topic

beholding said:
Given the hue and cry provoked by pussy -> vulva from users who had no idea such a thing was even being proposed, I think it's important to make consequential votes as visible as possible.

Hate to break it to you, but the same people complaining are the same people that have never read a wiki page in their life

beholding said:
The page can be cleared once the vote is resolved.

So now you've just created a useless wiki page which will later just sit empty
Non-staff can't delete it so it just forever sits there with no purpose
If a wiki page doesn't already exist it's likely the tag isn't used enough to warrant any kind of notice

donovan_dmc said:
a 27th topic

I'm sorry, what?

Non-staff can't delete it so it just forever sits there with no purpose

I wasn't aware of that. Very well, I'll avoid doing so in the future.

Hate to break it to you, but the same people complaining are the same people that have never read a wiki page in their life

You don't know that. It is entirely possible and even likely that there are users who read the wiki but not the forums. Regardless, I don't see the harm in advertising a vote that users should be made aware of.