The tag implication #70473 dragon_koopa -> koopa is pending approval.
Reason: Almost all posts that have the dragon_koopa tag also have the koopa tag. If every dragon koopa is also a koopa, then the implication makes sense.
Topic: Tag implication: dragon_koopa -> koopa
Posted under Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions
bpedron said:
The tag implication #70473 dragon_koopa -> koopa is pending approval.Reason: Almost all posts that have the dragon_koopa tag also have the koopa tag. If every dragon koopa is also a koopa, then the implication makes sense.
That seems to be a synonym for Bowser, is having a specie tag for a single character really worth it? Since bowser is the king of the koopa, that his kids are koopas, doesn't it make him a koopa too?
bleakdragoon said:
That seems to be a synonym for Bowser, is having a specie tag for a single character really worth it? Since bowser is the king of the koopa, that his kids are koopas, doesn't it make him a koopa too?
It's not exclusive to Bowser, as the dragon_koopa tag has also been used to tag the koopalings. It's just a means to differentiate regular koopas from elite koopas, I guess.
bpedron said:
It's not exclusive to Bowser, as the dragon_koopa tag has also been used to tag the koopalings. It's just a means to differentiate regular koopas from elite koopas, I guess.
koopalings is a character tag (which should probably imply the koopa species tag).
My point is there is nothing specific to that dragon_koopa as a specie.
- Regular koopa can have spiny shells (spiny, blue spiny shells, spike top).
- Regular koopa ca spit fire (fire_bro)
- Black leather stud collar are not exclusive to dragon koopas
- Being a big turtle is not exclusive to dragon koopas
So dragon_koopa definiton is "It's bowser OR a koopa that looks like bowser".
That tag is overly specific, and frequetly deleted it seems to: Only 4 posts still has it, but there's 54 page worth of post where the keyword was added.
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bleakdragoon said:
That seems to be a synonym for Bowser, is having a specie tag for a single character really worth it? Since bowser is the king of the koopa, that his kids are koopas, doesn't it make him a koopa too?
it seems like a fan-made name for whatever specific species Bowser, Bowser's Brother, Junior, and the Koopalings are. spiked back shell, ventral scales rather than a front shell, dog-like muzzle, often hair growth, sometimes horns, etc.
currently, unlike every other species of koopa (like koopa_troopa, magikoopa, hammer_bro, lakitu etc.) Bowser's species dosn't have an official name. just using koopa on its own is less than ideal, especially when we take fan characters into account.
bleakdragoon said:
Only 4 posts still has it,
Oh wow, I'm dumb. Nevermind that.
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So we have species:koopalings aliased to character:koopaling.
That's a bit messy. Normally a specie tag should never be aliased to a character tag, since you can have any number of character of a specie that don't belong to the group of character.
E.i.: someone can make a koopaling character that is not a member of the Bowser's koopalings, and don't live within the mario_bros universe. (Implied by koopaling)
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Okay, that implication make sense.
AFAIK, Bowser isn't officially a distinct species from other koopa, where at least in the Japanese versions he is explicitly called the same species as the others.
Regardless, dragon_koopa makes me think of a dragon-koopa hybrid. Even if we wanted to separate out a sub-species tag similar to magikoopa or hammer_bro, I don't think the "dragon" part of the name is appropriate since Bowser and his kin aren't exceptionally dragon-like. He's not the only koopa type that can breath fire (nor is it a common ability for others of his type, if we're including the koopalings) or have spikes, and there are other types of koopa that are bigger than at least some of Bowser's type.
bleakdragoon said:
So we have species:koopalings aliased to character:koopaling.That's a bit messy. Normally a specie tag should never be aliased to a character tag, since you can have any number of character of a specie that don't belong to the group of character.
E.i.: someone can make a koopaling character that is not a member of the Bowser's koopalings, and don't live within the mario_bros universe. (Implied by koopaling)
koopaling isn't a species, but a specific group of characters. Random OCs that aren't an official koopaling shouldn't be tagged it.
watsit said:
koopaling isn't a species, but a specific group of characters. Random OCs that aren't an official koopaling shouldn't be tagged it.
My point exactly. I'm confused.
koopalings (the specie tag) is aliased to koopaling. So either:
A) We change koopalings type to character.
B) We say that koopaling is really a specie and unalias it.
bleakdragoon said:
A) We change koopalings type to character.
It's not strictly necessary since it can't be used, but it seems someone did.
After a quick scan of the post change logs it seems like OP and the wiki editor are the only two people actually using this name. This should really change.
- bowser's_species would be the most straightforward.
- Super Mario Sunshine's ending, in all languages, has Bowser describe himself and Jr. as the "royal koopa" family, Japanese print materials also call them the "royal family".
watsit said:
AFAIK, Bowser isn't officially a distinct species from other koopa, where at least in the Japanese versions he is explicitly called the same species as the others.Regardless, dragon_koopa makes me think of a dragon-koopa hybrid. Even if we wanted to separate out a sub-species tag similar to magikoopa or hammer_bro, I don't think the "dragon" part of the name is appropriate since Bowser and his kin aren't exceptionally dragon-like. He's not the only koopa type that can breath fire (nor is it a common ability for others of his type, if we're including the koopalings) or have spikes, and there are other types of koopa that are bigger than at least some of Bowser's type.
"koopa" is used both to refer to essentially the entire, like, clade containing every turtle-based Mario enemy/character (sometimes called the "Koopa Clan" or, in japanese, "Turtle Clan"), as well as specifically Bowser's species which would be a member of the larger koopa "taxonomic group".
I'm not sure what a better name would really be, we could just go with bowser's_species but that sounds kinda awkward and I'm not sure if it's function is any more clear. royal_koopa might work, but the Koopalings are usually included in this category and they're currently not considered members of the royal family so it might be confusing as well.
watsit said:
AFAIK, Bowser isn't officially a distinct species from other koopa, where at least in the Japanese versions he is explicitly called the same species as the others.Regardless, dragon_koopa makes me think of a dragon-koopa hybrid. Even if we wanted to separate out a sub-species tag similar to magikoopa or hammer_bro, I don't think the "dragon" part of the name is appropriate since Bowser and his kin aren't exceptionally dragon-like. He's not the only koopa type that can breath fire (nor is it a common ability for others of his type, if we're including the koopalings) or have spikes, and there are other types of koopa that are bigger than at least some of Bowser's type.
koopaling isn't a species, but a specific group of characters. Random OCs that aren't an official koopaling shouldn't be tagged it.
Yes, this is what happened in my case. I saw an OC of a koopaling, but I couldn't tag it as a koopaling because he's not part of the official group. I wanted him to be tagged different from a normal koopa, so I searched a bit and found this dragon_koopa tag.
Every koopaling is a koopa, but not every koopa is a koopaling, that's why I thought of an implication. I like the idea of having a tag for boss characters, but I don't know if it's relevant.
dba_afish said:
I'm not sure what a better name would really be, we could just go with bowser's_species but that sounds kinda awkward and I'm not sure if it's function is any more clear. royal_koopa might work, but the Koopalings are usually included in this category and they're currently not considered members of the royal family so it might be confusing as well.
4k post is a lot, that means the usage is widespread. Lacking any official specie name, that means changing to a new tag will be considered arbitrary and cause a push back.
I think the implication is the way to go; that or aliasing dragon_koopa to koopa.
bleakdragoon said:
4k post is a lot, that means the usage is widespread.
It doesn't sound that widespread:
lafcadio said:
After a quick scan of the post change logs it seems like OP and the wiki editor are the only two people actually using this name.
4k is a lot, but it's only a couple people using it. Changing the name and getting those two people to use the different name shouldn't leave much use of the old name, so the sooner it's changed, the better (and I'd prefer a mass update over an alias, to avoid polluting the dragon* autocomplete with a non-dragon-related bowser species).
bleakdragoon said:
4k post is a lot, that means the usage is widespread. Lacking any official specie name, that means changing to a new tag will be considered arbitrary and cause a push back.
as of right now, only seven users have added this tag to posts, and 4031 out of 4044 of these additions were made by exactly one guy, BigGrayWolf. only thirteen additions were made by the remaining six users. so I don't think this really speaks to any existing consensus about the tagname.
I stand corrected then,
To me, royal_koopa is not a specie either, it's a tittle. Peach is the ruler of the mushroom kingdom, and she's not a toad. E.i. you can be member of a royal family and not share a specie.
Which cycle back to my point: lacking a real, official name for bowser's specie (assuming he's not simply a koopa) is going to be arbitrary.
So what are you guys proposing then?
bleakdragoon said:
So what are you guys proposing then?
bowser's_species sounds fine enough, until a better or more official name is made. Better than dragon_koopa, which has no connection to dragons.
watsit said:
bowser's_species sounds fine enough, until a better or more official name is made. Better than dragon_koopa, which has no connection to dragons.
Bowser’s species could also be called elite_koopa, bigger_koopa, magical_koopa, stronger_koopa, boss_koopa, and so on. There is no official name for his species or for other boss characters — they’re all just Koopas. It’s perfectly normal to associate a dragon with something that isn’t fully defined, so I understand what happened. I guess it would be easier to ignore the differentiation altogether. Just call Bowser, the Koopalings, and OCs “Koopas” and that’s it. That would mean the dragon_koopa tag becomes invalid.
UNLESS we have something like the boss monsters from Undertale, which is a completely different universe.
bpedron said:
Bowser’s species could also be called elite_koopa, bigger_koopa, magical_koopa, stronger_koopa, boss_koopa, and so on.
boss_koopa sounds too gamey and a bit too vague. The koopalings and Bowser Jr. are underlings of Bowser, rather than the top brass, and Kamek is sometimes depicted as a boss/leader of some regiment of other koopa. The tag could apply to any koopa that is a boss in the games, or which is seen as the leader of other koopa, regardless of their sub-species.
stronger_koopa is subjective and relative. Chargin'_chuck is physically stronger than many other koopa, for example. And as someone who grew up with the original games as a kid, I found hammer_bros to be strong/difficult.
magical_koopa is too similar to magikoopa, aside from Bowser's ilk not being uniquely (or even the most) magical.
bigger_koopa is too relative. The koopalings aren't the biggest koopa, and there are other koopa as big as them.
elite_koopa sounds too vague. Any koopa in a commanding position could be considered an "elite koopa", even if they're just a normal-looking koopa with a strong buff.
watsit said:
...
And bowser's_species means that we make a specie out of a single character. Character that has 2 different form at that.
Also, over the millennia of dragon history, the traditional western dragon style is far from being the default
I want to draw your attention to the real mythological tarasque
A huge dragon, half animal, half fish ...fatter than a bull, longer than a horse, it had the face and head of a lion, teeth sharp as swords, the mane of a horse, a back that was hatchet-sharp with bristly scales keen as augers, six feet with bear-like claws, the tail of a serpent, and a double shield/carapace, like a tortoise's, on each side.
bleakdragoon said:
And bowser's_species means that we make a specie out of a single character.
Which is exactly what we're doing. Bowser is a koopa, and there is no official term for Bowser's subspecies, so we're making a koopa subspecies tag to refer to him and those that look like him.
bleakdragoon said:
Also, over the millennia of dragon history, the traditional western dragon style is far from being the default
There are certain expectations people have here with the dragon tag. bowser is not generally considered a dragon for tagging purposes -- bowser has 15k posts, while bowser dragon has ~870 (some of which aren't using the dragon tag for Bowser). Personally I'd remove the dragon tag if I saw a post using it to refer to his species, and he wasn't drawn particularly draconic-looking (given your example, I could be swayed that king_koopa has a slightly more draconic face with a more lizard-like snout and forked_tongue, though it's still pretty weak connection to dragon).
It would be one thing if "dragon koopa" was the official term for his subspecies, but it's not. IMO, it's best to avoid the misconception of him being related to the dragon tag if we can avoid it.
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bleakdragoon said:
And bowser's_species means that we make a specie out of a single character. Character that has 2 different form at that.
Bowser isn't the only one of his species, but also: see yoda's species and the various Star Wars-related resources that use the exact same term because a proper name is just never provided anyway. Is it awkward? Yes. Is it well-established? Also yes.
bpedron said:
Bowser’s species could also be called elite_koopa, bigger_koopa, magical_koopa, stronger_koopa, boss_koopa, and so on. There is no official name for his species or for other boss characters — they’re all just Koopas. It’s perfectly normal to associate a dragon with something that isn’t fully defined, so I understand what happened. I guess it would be easier to ignore the differentiation altogether. Just call Bowser, the Koopalings, and OCs “Koopas” and that’s it. That would mean the dragon_koopa tag becomes invalid.UNLESS we have something like the boss monsters from Undertale, which is a completely different universe.
Except, we actually do have a relatively Nintendo-supported term in the "royal" quantifier. There's at least some basis there, as even the Koopalings are described as 王族 even when certain materials are less certain about a blood relation to Bowser/Jr.
I know this is 4 days old, but I wanted to add in. Even if "dragon koopa" isn't the correct tag, I feel like we still need *some* kind of tag for Bowser's koopa species.
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biggraywolf said:
I know this is 4 days okd, but I wanted to add in. Even if "dragon koopa" isn't the correct tag, I feel like we still need *some* kind of tag for Bowser's koopa species.
The best options so far seem to be either bowser's_species or royal_koopa.
Yeah, maybe.
watsit said:
The best options so far seem to be either bowser's_species or royal_koopa.
bowser's_species would probably be best, unless we find something else, with royal_koopa I don't want us to have to deal with any confusion regarding a character actually being a member of the Koopa royal family or not.
I don't think anyone on here is going to confuse the meaning of bowser's_species to mean all koopas or something.
lafcadio said:
Except, we actually do have a relatively Nintendo-supported term in the "royal" quantifier. There's at least some basis there, as even the Koopalings are described as 王族 even when certain materials are less certain about a blood relation to Bowser/Jr.
is there any instances of them using the term "王族" in regards to a group which includes the Koopalings since they retconned them being Bowser's kids or really anything since this one book from 1994?