In the current tagging system, fat characters are tagged as 'overweight', 'obese', or 'morbidly obese'. These terms carry a derogatory subtext and are generally disliked by the fat community, especially fat liberationists. I propose that, similar to the way muscular bodies are tagged, we should have some system along the lines of 'chubby', 'fat', 'very fat', and 'hyper fat'.
Topic: Respectful names for fatfurs
Posted under General
lemonwrath said:
In the current tagging system, fat characters are tagged as 'overweight', 'obese', or 'morbidly obese'. These terms carry a derogatory subtext and are generally disliked by the fat community, especially fat liberationists. I propose that, similar to the way muscular bodies are tagged, we should have some system along the lines of 'chubby', 'fat', 'very fat', and 'hyper fat'.
That's ironic, since as a somewhat hefty person myself, I find "fat" as a size descriptor much more derogatory than "overweight" or "obese". Calling someone "fat" or "very fat" isn't respectful, to me.
You can submit a Bulk Update Request (BUR) and propose for the above tags to be aliased to their new tags. That way, you can see how much support you can gain with your idea.
However, you may need to use a BUR first to free-up certain tags that are currently attached to existing tags, namely chubby (aliased to slightly_chubby), fat (aliased to overweight), and hyper_fat (aliased to morbidly_obese).
lemonwrath said:
In the current tagging system, fat characters are tagged as 'overweight', 'obese', or 'morbidly obese'. These terms carry a derogatory subtext and are generally disliked by the fat community, especially fat liberationists. I propose that, similar to the way muscular bodies are tagged, we should have some system along the lines of 'chubby', 'fat', 'very fat', and 'hyper fat'.
Honestly just leave it be its not fat phobic (not really atleast in my opinion)
watsit said:
That's ironic, since as a somewhat hefty person myself, I find "fat" as a size descriptor much more derogatory than "overweight" or "obese". Calling someone "fat" or "very fat" isn't respectful, to me.
iamcooked said:
Honestly just leave it be its not fat phobic (not really atleast in my opinion)
As I said before, most anti-fatphobia groups proscribe the words "obese" and "overweight" and promote the word "fat" instead. For example:
I fully agree, this needs changing
lemonwrath said:
As I said before, most anti-fatphobia groups proscribe the words "obese" and "overweight" and promote the word "fat" instead. For example:
mate those are medical terms used by medical professionals no amout of actvism will change that, and yes there is a correct weight for every body there is science behind it that why it called overweight cause you are over the healthy amount for your height and gender, while yes there is edge cases where someone can be 5'4 and 200lbs and be healthy (such as most of that weight being pure muscle) it does not happen often
funkwolfie said:
mate those are medical terms used by medical professionals no amout of actvism will change that, and yes there is a correct weight for every body there is science behind it that why it called overweight cause you are over the healthy amount for your height and gender, while yes there is edge cases where someone can be 5'4 and 200lbs and be healthy (such as most of that weight being pure muscle) it does not happen often
how are you a furry and still fatphobic ๐ญ๐ญ๐ญ๐ญ๐ญ grow up... besides, theyre fatfurs and fat fetishists, not overweight-obesefurs and overweight-obese fetishists
lemonwrath said:
how are you a furry and still fatphobic ๐ญ๐ญ๐ญ๐ญ๐ญ grow up... besides, theyre fatfurs and fat fetishists, not overweight-obesefurs and overweight-obese fetishists
how am I fatphobic? I did not once call you a slur or make fun of you for weight, I gave you a counter argument
funkwolfie said:
mate those are medical terms used by medical professionals no amout of actvism will change that, and yes there is a correct weight for every body there is science behind it that why it called overweight cause you are over the healthy amount for your height and gender, while yes there is edge cases where someone can be 5'4 and 200lbs and be healthy (such as most of that weight being pure muscle) it does not happen often
The tag change makes sense because it's wrt non-humans / furries. It's unclear what constitutes medical obesity for a 9 ft hippo person, so something like 'very_fat' might be better than 'obese' or 'overweight'. The fat liberation arguments being used aren't that convincing tho
oneohthrix said:
The tag change makes sense because it's with respect to non-humans / furries. It's kind of unclear what constitutes medical obesity for a 9 ft hippo person, so something like 'very_fat' sounds better than 'obese' or 'overweight' tbh. The fat liberation arguments being used aren't that convincing tho
well to be far e6 doesnt use it in the strict medical sense, it more so like extremely excess of body but they use that term cause most people can see oh ok thats obesity, vs very fat for someone could be 40lb pounds while for someone else its 200lbs etc
funkwolfie said:
how am I fatphobic? I did not once call you a slur or make fun of you for weight, I gave you a counter argument
you're promoting a fatphobic myth. so-called 'overweight' people are known to live longer than those with a 'healthy' weight
lemonwrath said:
you're promoting a fatphobic myth. so-called 'overweight' people are known to live longer than those with a 'healthy' weight
Conclusions Underweight and obesity, particularly higher levels of obesity, were associated with increased mortality relative to the normal weight category. The impact of obesity on mortality may have decreased over time, perhaps because of improvements in public health and medical care. These findings are consistent with the increases in life expectancy in the United States and the declining mortality rates from ischemic heart disease.
in the paper you linked it does not say there was
also something can be unhealthy without increasing mortality, Its unhealthy for me not to have fiber in my diet but it doesnt make me more likely to die
funkwolfie said:
Conclusions Underweight and obesity, particularly higher levels of obesity, were associated with increased mortality relative to the normal weight category. The impact of obesity on mortality may have decreased over time, perhaps because of improvements in public health and medical care. These findings are consistent with the increases in life expectancy in the United States and the declining mortality rates from ischemic heart disease.in the paper you linked
"Overweight was associated with a slight reduction in mortality (โ86 094 deaths; 95% CI, โ161 223 to โ10 966) relative to the normal weight category."
read closer
lemonwrath said:
"Overweight was associated with a slight reduction in mortality (โ86 094 deaths; 95% CI, โ161 223 to โ10 966) relative to the normal weight category."read closer
Comment
Our results show increased mortality associated with underweight and with obesity, particularly with higher levels of obesity, relative to the normal weight category. Our results are lower than previous estimates.5,7 Differences in statistical methods account for some of the differences. Our method of estimation accounts more fully for confounding and for effect modification by age than the partially adjusted method used in previous estimates. When applied either to NHANES I data or to the combined data set, our method yielded results that were more than 20% lower than when the partially adjusted method was applied to the same data with the same reference category and the same covariates. However, the largest difference is due to the inclusion of the mortality data from NHANES II and NHANES III, which decreased estimates by 63% or more relative to NHANES I mortality data alone. It would be useful to know whether similar secular patterns are detectable in other cohorts that span recent decades.
me being 80lbs is unhealthy and me being 600lbs is unhealthy.
but we are getting kinda far from talking about aliases
okay yeah, well regardless of health and fatphobia, "overweight" carries an intrinsically negative meaning, "obese" is either a technical term or a slur or both, "fat" is a fairly neutral term, and "chubby" is either neutral or a positive euphemism. people who want to see fat bodies like them, and don't want them described with words that are demeaning or overly technical. we're not a medical organization, we're a porn site, and "fat" is the term fat fetishists and everyday people use
lemonwrath said:
you're promoting a fatphobic myth. so-called 'overweight' people are known to live longer than those with a 'healthy' weight
Conclusions Underweight and obesity, particularly higher levels of obesity, were associated with increased mortality relative to the normal weight category. The impact of obesity on mortality may have decreased over time, perhaps because of improvements in public health and medical care. These findings are consistent with the increases in life expectancy in the United States and the declining mortality rates from ischemic heart disease.
At most that would just mean that our concept of what's considered healthy needs adjusting, or more nuance, it doesn't say there is no such thing as a healthy or ideal weight. The paper even uses terms like "normal weight category", implying under- and over-weight categories. In any case, as I've said, as a "fat" person myself, I consider it very rude and disrespectful to be called "fat", as it implies having an overabundance of fat from overeating. If you're cool with being called that, that's fine, but not everyone is.
lemonwrath said:
okay yeah, well regardless of health and fatphobia, "overweight" carries an intrinsically negative meaning, "obese" is either a technical term or a slur or both, "fat" is a fairly neutral term, and "chubby" is either neutral or a positive euphemism. people who want to see fat bodies like them, and don't want them described with words that are demeaning or overly technical. we're not a medical organization, we're a porn site, and "fat" is the term fat fetishists and everyday people use
then make a bur and see if people want it changed, and as you seen people rather be called overweight then fat including me, Im a couple pounds overweight and i rather be called overweight then fat or chubby
I am not against changing the weight category names- however, they need to be clear or they'll be heavily abused. The issue with 'fat' is that it is subjective. People call anything beyond stick-figure thinness fat. 'Overweight', while also being imperfect, the nature of it being more 'clinical' feeling helps these mistags look more obviously incorrect.
'Chubby' is also a subjective term and currently aliased to slightly_chubby. It is a mess. People use 'chubby' as a cuter synonym for fat.
I also think that the current weight tags leave a lot of grey area with style. Is a character with a thin torso and huge butt fat? Thin? Both? Are characters drawn in a cartoon style where everyone is an oval fat? If the cast of characters are stick figures, does that make a slightly thicker character fat? I don't have good answers for these.
Those names are fine as is tbh.
And I don't know why you're giving weight(no pun intended) to fat activist groups or the "fat community" in particular. The opinions that should matter are fatfurs specifically or perhaps the internet/porn community in general.
"Fat" Is what bullies always used to call me, so no thanks, i think your suggestion is really bad.
Just gonna play devil's advocate for the medical term advocates that "morbidly obese" is in fact an outdated term and it now, typically, seems to be referred to as class III or severe obesity. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]
Medical language and knowledge evolves over time and many things will be considered disrespectful or outdated in the future. Rabies used to be referred to as hydrophobia. Tuberculosis used to be called consumption. Aspergers got merged into autism and that term isn't used medically anymore at all. Just because we use it now, doesn't mean we have to use it forever.
If any of these tags needs to go, it is going to be morbidly_obese.
I personally see almost all fatfurs referring to fat characters as fat. I refer to fat people, and fat characters, including myself, as fat. I absolutely do not want to be called "overweight". Some people will see fat as derogatory and some people will see obese as derogatory. There's no real winner here because not everyone can be pleased with it and there will always be a very vocal group that wants to switch to a different set of terms - mostly because fatness in of itself is seen as derogatory and indecent in our society, so anything referring to it is offensive to someone.
moonlit-comet said:
Just gonna play devil's advocate for the medical term advocates that "morbidly obese" is in fact an outdated term and it now, typically, seems to be referred to as class III or severe obesity. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]
Medical language and knowledge evolves over time and many things will be considered disrespectful or outdated in the future. Rabies used to be referred to as hydrophobia. Tuberculosis used to be called consumption. Aspergers got merged into autism and that term isn't used medically anymore at all. Just because we use it now, doesn't mean we have to use it forever.
If any of these tags needs to go, it is going to be morbidly_obese.
I personally see almost all fatfurs referring to fat characters as fat. I refer to fat people, and fat characters, including myself, as fat. Some people will see fat as derogatory and some people will see obese as derogatory. There's no real winner here because not everyone can be pleased with it and there will always be a very vocal group that wants to switch to a different set of terms - mostly because fatness in of itself is seen as derogatory and indecent in our society, so anything referring to it is offensive to someone.
Morbidly_obese isn't a great tag anyway since it covers everything from 'the extreme end of plausible' to 'outright spherical.' There needs to be something that separates this
post #5740391
from this
post #5736003
regsmutt said:
Morbidly_obese isn't a great tag anyway since it covers everything from 'the extreme end of plausible' to 'outright spherical.' There needs to be something that separates this
post #5740391
from this
post #5736003
Hyper_* would fit rather nicely into our current system. I'd suggest either hyper_obese, or hyper_fat, depending on the outcome of a potential BUR from this topic.
quenir said:
Hyper_* would fit rather nicely into our current system. I'd suggest either hyper_obese, or hyper_fat, depending on the outcome of a potential BUR from this topic.
'Hyper' is aliased to morbidly_obese.
not a BUR but if it were I'd thumbs down
I most definitely disagree with the notion of 'fat' as being anything more than derogatory when describing a character. Some furs among these using it in a supposedly friendly manner among each other does not really change that anymore so then how some African-Americans may use the N-word in a non-negative manner among each other, it never the less remains a slur.
Both sides are wrong, I think this whole debate is ridiculous. Neither 'fat' nor 'obese' is a slur. Both words are descriptive adjectives. While both can be used in negative or insulting contexts, the words themselves are not slurs. A slur is a word intended to insult, dehumanize, or marginalize someone based on identity. Weight is not an identity, nor are the words intended to insult.
One is an informal term, the other is medical. We've basically switched everything except 'balls' to medical terminology. While I disagreed with the switch from 'pussy' to 'vulva', at least we're being consistent. Switching from 'obese' to 'fat' breaks the precedent we've established.
regsmutt said:
'Hyper' is aliased to morbidly_obese.
True, but in my opinion incorrect, being that the definion of hyper we use is 'unrealistically large, more than can be waved away with artistic license'. Morbidly obese doesn't really imply the same degree of unrealistic anatomy, and having a distinct tag for such would likely be useful in cases like the second image presented.
kyiiel said:
Both sides are wrong, I think this whole debate is ridiculous. Neither 'fat' nor 'obese' is a slur. Both words are descriptive adjectives. While both can be used in negative or insulting contexts, the words themselves are not slurs. A slur is a word intended to insult, dehumanize, or marginalize someone based on identity. Weight is not an identity, nor are the words intended to insult.One is an informal term, the other is medical. We've basically switched everything except 'balls' to medical terminology. While I disagreed with the switch from 'pussy' to 'vulva', at least we're being consistent. Switching from 'obese' to 'fat' breaks the precedent we've established.
This, also we need to rename huge_breasts to the proper medical term: idiopathic_gigantomastia
kyiiel said:
Both sides are wrong, I think this whole debate is ridiculous. Neither 'fat' nor 'obese' is a slur.
I wouldn't go as far as calling it a slur, but it is rude and disrespectful. Like calling someone a bitch. Between "overweight" and "fat", one is intended to be negative and insulting; even if it can be used within certain communities without being insulting, that's not how it's generally used or taken, and definitely isn't accepted by all it would apply to. If my doctor called me "fat" instead of "overweight", I'd be looking for a new doctor. I'll echo what was said earlier:
drato said:
"Fat" Is what bullies always used to call me, so no thanks, i think your suggestion is really bad.
kyiiel said:
Both sides are wrong, I think this whole debate is ridiculous. Neither 'fat' nor 'obese' is a slur. Both words are descriptive adjectives. While both can be used in negative or insulting contexts, the words themselves are not slurs. A slur is a word intended to insult, dehumanize, or marginalize someone based on identity. Weight is not an identity, nor are the words intended to insult.One is an informal term, the other is medical. We've basically switched everything except 'balls' to medical terminology. While I disagreed with the switch from 'pussy' to 'vulva', at least we're being consistent. Switching from 'obese' to 'fat' breaks the precedent we've established.
this thread is ridiculous, i agree
Plussizefur? ยฏ\_(ใ)_/ยฏ
lemonwrath said:
In the current tagging system, fat characters are tagged as 'overweight', 'obese', or 'morbidly obese'. These terms carry a derogatory subtext and are generally disliked by the fat community, especially fat liberationists. I propose that, similar to the way muscular bodies are tagged, we should have some system along the lines of 'chubby', 'fat', 'very fat', and 'hyper fat'.
You do realize overweight, obese, and morbidly obese are the medical terms?
As someone who, due to PTSD my meds, and depression, has been told I am morbidly obese by my doctor.
In fact, 'morbidly obese' means, in more casual terms 'obese enough that it could shorten your life'. Hence the 'morbid' part.
Well since we're revisiting this topic
The tags aim for 3 things:
1. To be neutral
2. To be precise
3. To be intuitive
(let's ignore that 2 and 3 might come at the expense of each other, so it's quite the balancing act)
No. 1 is kinda important, and we've changed major tags because of it (see andromorph and gynomorph). I would say our current tags for weight classes is neutral enough; I don't think there has been any complaints about it until now. If you wanna erase all doubts, do an AIBUR and see the votes, poll fatfurs, etc. In my opinion the change would have a negligible impact on the neutrality.
Your suggestion for replacing it with a scale of chubby, fat, very fat, hyper fat fails no. 2 drastically. While our current tags are a bit blurry around the cutoff points, this makes the problem far worse, even if it's just a rename and everything else is kept the same.
No. 3 fails for the same reason as no. 2. Reading those names, it's rather subjective. You might say that since most characters on this website aren't human, so what people think each weight class means is also subjective, but characters are either anthro/humanoid (so they're based on humans) or feral (and we have enough understanding of weight classes for animals).
First time I'm hearing that "fat" is the correct one, most of the time I thought it was the most offensive one.
Overweight I think it's fine, just..."Above" the weight.
Plus_size could work but then we would need to rename "slightly_chubby" to "slightly_plus_size" that's...a bit awkward lol.
Still why I'm replying to a bumped thread lol...
I only care that people consistently follow the Wiki guidelines. When you don't, it makes it difficult to search or blacklist. That leads to a frustrating user experience.
I see so many images tagged "slightly chubby" when according to the Wiki, they really should be "overweight" or "obese" or whatever corresponding tags you'd rather apply.
I don't care what words you use as long as a typical user can find what they want and blacklist what they don't want. Just be accurate.
Updated
If this were a BUR I'd thumbs down
Bulbous, voluptuous, blubberous.
No concrete point to be articulated here, I just felt like conferring some adjectives.