Topic: Young Omnibus: Renaming loli and shota + young_sexualized + other young_* tags

Posted under Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions

The bulk update request #6329 is pending approval.

remove alias lolicon (0) -> loli (31351)
remove implication loli (31351) -> female (2584638)
remove implication loli (31351) -> young (240825)
remove alias shotacon (0) -> shota (37448)
remove alias straight_shota (0) -> shota (37448)
remove implication shota (37448) -> young (240825)
remove implication oppai_loli (547) -> loli (31351)
remove implication pregnant_loli (0) -> loli (31351)
remove implication pregnant_loli (0) -> pregnant (41001)
remove alias pregnant_young (0) -> underage_pregnancy (991)
remove alias pregnant_cub (0) -> underage_pregnancy (991)
remove implication underage_pregnancy (991) -> young (240825)
remove implication underage_pregnancy (991) -> pregnant (41001)
remove implication loli_penetrated (0) -> loli (31351)
create implication young_female_sexualized (0) -> young_female (39244)
create implication young_female_sexualized (0) -> young_sexualized (0)
create implication young_male_sexualized (0) -> young_male (46150)
create implication young_male_sexualized (0) -> young_sexualized (0)

Reason: First, I want to begin by stating that a lot of other people seem to want these changes done in some form, and I have less of a problem with loli and shota than they seem to. Regardless, I think I have a pretty good vision for how to implement the desired changes, so here it is. A lot of my tag projects are not for things I actually like--some of them are even firmly on my blacklist--but sometimes I feel like I know exactly how to handle that situation or tag so I do it anyway. If this is going to be done at all, I'd rather see it "done right," so I'm taking initiative.

The main purpose of this BUR is renaming and reorganizing loli and shota with clearer tag names, establishing the full young_sexualized tag group per gender while I'm at it, and formalizing the new young_* tags with [gender] and young implications.

The first BUR in this BUR thread removes all aliases and implications from tags targeted for adjustment and creates implications for the new young_[female/male]_sexualized tags. Followup BURs will create the other necessary aliases and implications.

Here are all my intended changes, first divided into related groups for ease of understanding and then the actual BURs. Some of these changes have been proposed in other, similar BURs, but this is my vision. I think it's better to show this all in one place than to refer to others' BURs in various older threads that are less relevant now, especially after cub's aliasing. Some of these proposals can be taken to secondary threads for focused discussion if people really want that.

Changes by Group (Not BURs)
Rename loli and shota to young_female_sexualized and young_male_sexualized
unalias lolicon -> loli
unimply loli -> female
unimply loli -> young
alias loli -> young_female_sexualized
alias lolicon -> young_female_sexualized
unalias shotacon -> shota
unalias straight_shota -> shota
unimply shota -> young
alias shota -> young_male_sexualized
alias shotacon -> young_male_sexualized
alias straight_shota -> young_male_sexualized
Establish the young_sexualized tag group
imply young_female_sexualized -> young_female
imply young_female_sexualized -> young_sexualized
imply young_male_sexualized -> young_male
imply young_male_sexualized -> young_sexualized
imply young_ambiguous_sexualized -> young_ambiguous
imply young_ambiguous_sexualized -> young_sexualized
imply young_intersex -> young_sexualized
imply young_sexualized -> young
Formalize young_[gender] tags with young and [gender] implications
imply young_male -> young
imply young_female -> young
imply young_ambiguous -> young
imply young_male -> male
imply young_female -> female
imply young_gynomorph -> young_intersex
imply young_andromorph -> young_intersex
imply young_herm -> young_intersex
imply young_maleherm -> young_intersex
imply young_intersex -> intersex
imply young_gynomorph -> gynomorph
imply young_andromorph -> andromorph
imply young_herm -> herm
imply young_maleherm -> maleherm
imply young_ambiguous -> ambiguous_gender
Clean up loli implications
unimply oppai_loli -> loli
imply oppai_loli -> young_female_sexualized
unimply pregnant_loli -> loli
unimply pregnant_loli -> pregnant
unalias pregnant_young -> underage_pregnancy
unalias pregnant_cub -> underage_pregnancy
unimply underage_pregnancy -> young
unimply underage_pregnancy -> pregnant
alias pregnant_loli -> pregnant_young
alias underage_pregnancy -> pregnant_young
alias pregnant_cub -> pregnant_young
imply pregnant_young -> pregnant
imply pregnant_young -> young
unimply loli_penetrated -> loli
alias loli_penetrated -> young_penetrated
Followup BURs
Part 2
alias loli -> young_female_sexualized
alias lolicon -> young_female_sexualized
alias shota -> young_male_sexualized
alias shotacon -> young_male_sexualized
alias straight_shota -> young_male_sexualized
imply young_ambiguous_sexualized -> young_ambiguous
imply young_ambiguous_sexualized -> young_sexualized
imply young_gynomorph -> young_intersex
imply young_andromorph -> young_intersex
imply young_herm -> young_intersex
imply young_maleherm -> young_intersex
imply young_sexualized -> young
imply young_male -> young
imply young_female -> young
imply young_ambiguous -> young
imply young_male -> male
imply young_female -> female
imply young_intersex -> intersex
imply young_gynomorph -> gynomorph
imply young_andromorph -> andromorph
imply young_herm -> herm
imply young_maleherm -> maleherm
imply young_ambiguous -> ambiguous_gender
Part 2.5
imply young_intersex -> young_sexualized
Part 3
imply oppai_loli -> young_female_sexualized
alias pregnant_loli -> pregnant_young
alias underage_pregnancy -> pregnant_young
alias pregnant_cub -> pregnant_young
imply pregnant_young -> pregnant
imply pregnant_young -> young
alias loli_penetrated -> young_penetrated
Rationales

Collapsed to prevent vertigo and "wall of text" illness.

Why rename loli and shota?

This seems to make more sense to others than it does to me. I will say, however, that I am in favor of demystifying non-English tag names that have various cultural connotations and mean different things to different people who use these tags differently from each other. For example, some people will always view kanna_kamui as "the dragon loli" and tag her as such, regardless of her depicted gender, apparent age, sexualization, and especially regardless of what our wikis say. I did spend maybe 15 hours checking and removing loli and shota mistags from intersex posts to prepare for this BUR, so these tags have accumulated some misuse over the years.

Why young_[female/male]_sexualized?

I've seen floated the idea of calling loli and shota sexualized_young or "sexualized" something or other for several months now. With the community's recent adoption of young_[gender] tags and other tags starting with young_*, I think we should try to collect all possible young-related tags into standardized tags beginning with young_* like we do for various other tags.

We began standardizing tag names like this before e621 implemented tag autocomplete, and standardized tag naming became all the more imperative for discoverability after tag autocomplete. In other words, I want people to type young_[male/female] and to see young_[male/female]_sexualized directly below that on the autocomplete list. This is how people discover and use a lot of tags now, and it's a good thing (when taggers aren't spamming redundant junk and mistags that start with the same keyword). Although these tag names are long, they do a good job identifying exactly what they are for, and the syntax of keyword_sub-keyword_special-keyword has a certain intuitive elegance.

Why not only young_sexualized?

That could work. Searching young_sexualized + young_[gender] does get us most of the way there. But why not just give people exactly what they want instead of lego tags they must piece together? Why stop short? I've found that having a tag that is 100% a thing significantly improves search results instead of relying on taggers to add combinations of tags. More relevant posts should get tagged with that single tag than the separate tags will appear together. Just give people exactly what they want, no bs.

These renames also ensure that loli and shota still function as search terms with the desired results after the rename. We know without seeing that people still search and tag with terms like "futa", "trap", etc. And I am very sympathetic to replacing a 4 and 5 letter tag with a 23 and 21 letter tag lmao. Typing that out sucks a lot. Shorthand advised.

Just to lay out the whole thought experiment... Aliasing loli and shota to young_sexualized will wreck any search with just shota. That won't give good results. The search must become, confusingly, shota young_male. And searching just loli will likewise yield some quite irrelevant results. Going the other way, aliasing to young_female and young_male would provide a better user experience, but of course that will include safe results too so the search becomes loli rating:e which isn't as bad. Or we can just use an alias that works 1:1 and forget about all this extra stuff.

Why use young_sexualized at all?

Loli and shota have almost been tagged 80K times. Young porn is somewhat popular. Are people using the tags simply because they exist or because they want to find similar content and have these posts shown in the same search? I don't know. Seems like a waste to lose all that tagging effort, most of which will be correct. I feel like in 2015-2018 we argued for "good enough tagging" but nothing more. Tagging philosophy has since changed, and we've gotten more specific. A lot of that "good enough" tagging has actually turned out pretty bad and we're still cleaning it up. The calls to "do something" about loli and shota may be more evidence of that.

What is "sexualized"?

This should mean anything sexual that would trigger a Questionable or Explicit rating as defined in our ratings wiki. Honestly, this word still has some room for misinterpretation and argument, but that situation seems like an improvement over the uncertainty of loli and shota. We can always make incremental improvements with the new ideas that materialize before us when they do. This is here now. Also, I kind of hope people don't start adding *_sexualized to random tags. I really don't think we need feral_sexualized, but this loli/shota solution is meant as a clean exit for a special problem.

imply young_intersex -> young_sexualized

Yeah, yeah. The other elephant in the room. The very short version is this imprints our gender tagging policy directly into some implications. I was considering how ugly it would be to have a long *_sexualized tag for each young_[gender] when I realized, based on my tagging 30K+ young posts, that's extremely redundant, and in fact, should be 100% redundant if people truly follow our gender tagging rules. This is an elegant solution that spares us from some redundant, ugly-looking tags.

On e621, characters have feminine, masculine, or entirely "ambiguous" bodies. If we know nothing of the character's genitals, then these characters can only be tagged one of female, male, or ambiguous_gender. If we can identify a character's genitals and they don't match their body, they are one of the four intersex genders. And if we know about a character's genitals, then we can say the character is "sexualized" and the post should be rated Questionable or Explicit. Yes, I am saying intersex rating:safe should be empty. I could have emptied that myself before typing this to much more easily be found "right on the Internet," but I shouldn't have to. Most of those posts are clearly mistagged or misrated. We have [gender]_(lore) tags as a compromise for these posts.

I know people will want to link various posts and ask what about that? Here's how.

Male-bodied characters do not need anything known about their genitals to get the male tag. See: featureless_crotch and all (?) industry children's art. While we may expect art to fill the space where a male's genitals should be, a flattened crotch simply does not mean the character is andromorph. Even for furry art that wants to force the issue with male bodies wearing skimpy bikinis or skintight leotards, effectively saying "there's no room for a penis here," genitals are not required for the male tag but are still required for the andromorph tag. Call it Schrodinger's penis: the penis simultaneously exists and does not exist until observed. That's kind of how cartoon logic works in regular art.

For female-bodied characters to have a bulge (penis), the bulge must be so obviously a penis that the post is no longer Safe, or else the bulge is too discreet to sway gender tagging away from a female with a normal pubic mound + normal vulva. I looked at a bunch of posts and could not find anything that contradicted these ideas. Lastly, let's be honest, if a post is trying to make a statement about a character's genitals (notice this flat/bulging crotch!), even without showing the genitals, then the art is literally sexualizing that character.

In spite of all that, I think it's best to put this implication alone in an isolated BUR. This idea shouldn't prevent the other BURs from going forward, although rejection does require some changes.

I could say even more, but I'm tired of typing. If you have something to say, at least do me the courtesy of checking this post to see if I've already covered it.

Watsit

Privileged

I don't think young_[gender]_sexualized is necessary. young_[gender]+young_sexualized would basically be equivalent.

Donovan DMC

Former Staff

We explicitly chose not to use young pregnant or pregnant young due to them sounding awkward

We also don't need a young sexualized tag for each gender, as Watsit said searching the combination would be a rough equivalent

Let's fucking goooo!
I agree that young_[gender]_sexualized feels bloaty, but your points are solid.
The main problem with loli/shota is that they exclude ferals, babies, and adolescents, both in their colloquial meanings and according to the wikis. Imo the names are secondary to the utility. I would be fine with keeping the names even, as long as the rest of the utility offered by this bur is added.

watsit said:
I don't think young_[gender]_sexualized is necessary. young_[gender]+young_sexualized would basically be equivalent.

young_sexualized is very unnecessary as is, but people keep bringing that up (where are they?) like it accomplishes something worth using even though it's ~97% redundant with young -rating:s. Seems silly to support a hugely redundant tag but stop short of tags that'd be good aliases for loli and shota, giving those words desired search results post-alias.

donovan_dmc said:
We also don't need a young sexualized tag for each gender

Well, that's one.

abadbird said:
If you have something to say, at least do me the courtesy of checking this post to see if I've already covered it.

imply young_intersex -> young_sexualized

Voting against a BUR your post indicates you've barely looked at. If that's how little what I say is read, then maybe the site can't bear nuance. There'd only be three young_[gender]_sexualized tags, not one "for each gender."

We explicitly chose not to use young pregnant or pregnant young due to them sounding awkward

You mean "expressly" (i.e., for a specific purpose). "Explicitly" means this was communicated clearly, which, as part of the cub alias thread, it absolutely was not. I do not see any discussion in that thread explaining the rationale for arriving at underage_pregnancy.

Anyway, underage_pregnancy is the correct-sounding term. I won't argue that. However... underage is aliased to young. Like, do I even need to continue? underage wasn't really a tag word on this site until the cub alias. And why is that? People don't tag it unless it's directly shoved to the young alias. Users aren't trained to use tags beginning with underage. We should use standardized tag words wherever possible for greater coherency across all tags. young is that new, emerging standardized tag word, not underage that only draws attention away from young, inviting users to start tagging other underage tags that should be aliased to something else. I'd gladly take a slightly awkward tag that improves standardization over a tag that detracts from it.

But forget that crap. "Underage" as a word implies the age of majority is the alternative. Both are legal statuses. Underage pregnancy logically does not apply to ferals. "Underage" might even invite lore distinctions that do not use the human aging scaling.

Fun facts: I was literally the second person ever to "tag" underage_pregnancy, but only because of the alias, making me first to "tag" it after the alias. And, looking at the dates, the tag was only used before the alias in response to the cub alias thread. No tagger had ever gone as far as adding underage_pregnancy before the cub alias thread. The idea came from "internal discussion."

oopsitripped said:
Here's a further list of tags that could be used to populate or implicate these tags:

sexualized_young

Extension for if young characters in age difference relationships are to be considered young_sexualized:

young age_difference

There's probably some stray cub tags that didn't get aliased too, but that's about all of this I can stomach.

Good lord, we have so many unchecked young tags that need aliasing, others that shouldn't be used, and even more that I will not support. I'm not thinking about any additions unless the OP BUR gains any traction. I'd want to rename a bunch of those anyway. The idea to imply most of those to young_sexualized is fine.

watsit said:
I don't think young_[gender]_sexualized is necessary. young_[gender]+young_sexualized would basically be equivalent.

I agree on not making a combo tag like that. Young_sexualized would definitely fit better.
Loli and shota tags suck because it's not even used entirely for sexualization, and not entirely for female or male, respectively, or... It's Cub but worse!
It was why I was hoping to get most of cub done before jumping off the cliff that is lolishota tagging. DMC had it right with that tagging script that turned cub anthro -feral -taur -human -humanoid into young_anthro. Should we start with separating human shota and human loli, first? I have no idea where to start or if these tags are not worth touching or keeping or who knows. :(

oopsitripped said:
Let's fucking goooo!
I agree that young_[gender]_sexualized feels bloaty, but your points are solid.
The main problem with loli/shota is that they exclude ferals, babies, and adolescents, both in their colloquial meanings and according to the wikis. Imo the names are secondary to the utility. I would be fine with keeping the names even, as long as the rest of the utility offered by this bur is added.

This would be like after orgasm, then. Normally not used by itself. No one's supposed to be adding nor removing those because of historical reasons.
There's a similar issue with intersex. Normally, this is an implication of andromorph/gynomorph/herm/maleherm but rarely it gets used when a post defies those definitions?

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