The current intended use of the nullification tag as per its description is amputation of the genitals

whereas, it gets used for things that are decidedly not that because its the closest thing

It may just be from my blacklisting and being in a friend group of like minded people about the kink, the majority of nullification typically seen is of the rubber suit or magic transformation variety, whereas either the genitals are turned into a featureless null crotch or bulge via magic, the dick shrinking down in size until its gone, or whatever was down there being covered in a rubber suit of some that transforms the wearer to have nothing or a nullge

regardless of the method, all of these are typically tagged as nullification, when they very much are not the surgical removal and amputation of genitals

I have amputation and dismemberment in my blacklist, today I searched the tag, on the fist page there was an image of someone who got their dick ripped off in a bloody fashion, I did not want to see that, it likely was missing the proper tag, but this is also a symptom of the nullification tag being used for some vastly different kinks

the tag nullo_transformation exists and is much more apt for what I desire, however, it is barely ever used, has no wiki page itself, and is not mentioned by the nullification wiki page, when it very much should be noted as an alternative

Related thread - topic #27736.

thegreatwolfgang said:
Related thread - topic #27736.

That thread has a lot of relevant topics here yeah, there is a lot of confusion over the proper type of null tagging and such, and that definitely needs to be sorted out

In my opinion at least, the issue of tagging between nullification and nullo_transformation is much more clear cut of an issue, one is the amputation, and one is the more fantastical unrealistic methods, and possibly any additional tags to help distinguish such as maybe a null_bulge_transformation for specifically the bulges since they are different from just a smooth crotch

Does this thread have a BUR?

strikerman said:
Does this thread have a BUR?

What irks me the most is that some actual BURs don't even have "BUR" written in the title, which leads to me either getting clickbaited or not knowing that a BUR is involved at all.
But hey, perks of being able to request BURs on-the-fly on existing topic threads.

thegreatwolfgang said:
What irks me the most is that some actual BURs don't even have "BUR" written in the title, which leads to me either getting clickbaited or not knowing that a BUR is involved at all.
But hey, perks of being able to request BURs on-the-fly on existing topic threads.

I don’t know the proper terms, there was another thread that had a similar goal and had “BUR” in the title, which I assumed meant bulk update request, and this is that right? of having someone go through and re-tag posts with the relevant tags in bulk?

loki_the_vulpix said:
I don’t know the proper terms, there was another thread that had a similar goal and had “BUR” in the title, which I assumed meant bulk update request, and this is that right? of having someone go through and re-tag posts with the relevant tags in bulk?

You're on the right track, but the link I provided above takes you a form where you can formally write down all of those aliases and implications. You can click on "Help" to see a description of the syntax to use when writing a BUR. Under "Forum topic", you can include this thread's number (32582) to post the BUR in here.

The bulk update request #2089 is pending approval.

create alias nullification (239) -> nullification_(disambiguation) (0)
create implication nullo_transformation (9) -> nullo (318)
create alias nullo_tf (0) -> nullo_transformation (9)
create implication null_transformation (0) -> null (1874)
create alias null_tf (0) -> null_transformation (0)
create implication null_bulge_transformation (0) -> null_bulge (2638)
create alias nullge_transformation (0) -> null_bulge_transformation (0)
create alias null_bulge_tf (0) -> null_bulge_transformation (0)
create alias nullge_tf (0) -> null_bulge_transformation (0)
create implication nullification_amputation (0) -> amputation (519)
change category nullification_(disambiguation) (0) -> invalid

Reason: The current use of the tag as per its description is supposed to be for amputation of genitals, whereas it is also currently being used for the kink of the genitals being removed via fantastical means, a symptom of this tag being used for both is that if a user forgets to tag something like amputation on their post, people searching the kink for the more fantastical variant while having amputation in their blacklist may end up seeing it, splitting the tag into more tags would make this less of an issue

There needs to be separate tags for the different variants which need to be created and actually used, which the disambiguation page would instruct on the proper use of the tag, so it reflects the actual content of the posts being tagged with it rather than it just being the closest thing

nullo ones for when the result still has the urethra and such

null ones for the smooth null spot

and null_bullge for the ones which result in a well, null bulge

the current intended use of the current description for the current nullification tag should go to a nullification_amputation tag or similar, or just make sure to have amputation tagged

loki_the_vulpix said:
(...)

Disambiguated tags like nullification_(disambiguation) should not receive implications. The point of disambiguation is that the tag is supposed to be removed and replaced with another one that is more adequate, but if it is implied by other tags then it is impossible to remove it from a post without also removing the tags that imply it.

gattonero2001 said:
Disambiguated tags like nullification_(disambiguation) should not receive implications. The point of disambiguation is that the tag is supposed to be removed and replaced with another one that is more adequate, but if it is implied by other tags then it is impossible to remove it from a post without also removing the tags that imply it.

ah, I didn't know that

You also don't need to do a mass update along with an alias with the same tags. The alias automatically updates existing tags. And disambiguation tags should be set to the Invalid category (category nullification_(disambiguation) -> invalid).

watsit said:
You also don't need to do a mass update along with an alias with the same tags. The alias automatically updates existing tags. And disambiguation tags should be set to the Invalid category (category nullification_(disambiguation) -> invalid).

added the invalid category, and while a mass update works for the existing ones, the alias is somewhat for future proofing right? for when people upload and don't know about the new proper tags yet, and just put "nullification" it'll alias that to the disambiguation until someone updates it

loki_the_vulpix said:
the alias is somewhat for future proofing right? for when people upload and don't know about the new proper tags yet, and just put "nullification" it'll alias that to the disambiguation until someone updates it

Right, but I mean when making the alias, the system will automatically update existing uses to the new tag, making the mass update redundant.

I don’t like how similar null and nullo are, considering they have such similar but still distinct uses. I feel like one of these needs to be changed to something else to avoid confusion.

Unsurprisingly, it seems people have been using both tags to refer to the same character… nullo null

scaliespe said:
I don’t like how similar null and nullo are, considering they have such similar but still distinct uses. I feel like one of these needs to be changed to something else to avoid confusion.

Unsurprisingly, it seems people have been using both tags to refer to the same character… nullo null

Yeah this topic #27736 linked before covers that issue more directly

the difference between nullo and null isn't my goal to really get sorted out here, just going by the current descriptions of what the tags should be used for, so the vastly different kinks of transformation and amputation aren't lumped under the same tag

but yeah I had personally never actually seen nullo used prior to wanting to get this to happen

as per the ones where both is tagged, all that really needs to be done is to look at it and choose which one is more apt, rather than both, and if the term is changed later to be less confusing, it'd be easy to simply create a new alias

As the person who created the nullo transformation tag about two months ago, I was planning to empty that out as 1. I had later learned the difference between nullo and null and 2. was going to break it down into a more specific and useful "_ to_ transformation" tag structure similar to the mtf_transformation tags (see below table).

Consider all posts currently tagged with the nullo_transformation tag to be tagged with null_transformation as I was tagging with the idea of a null character in mind. I hadn't gotten around to cleaning this up as other things came up, sorry if that caused any confusion. As for the suggested bulk update, I disagree with nullification being aliased to disambiguation as the nullification tag denotes the action or process of nullification and so serves the purpose that null_transformation would in Loki's proposal. null_bulge_transformation and nullification_amputation tags seem redundant to me as you could just search ~*tn_transformation ~nt*_transformation null_bulge and nullification amputation respectively.

I want to offer an alternative BUR which I was planning on submitting after I had set up wiki pages for the tags involved but I will now create those wikis later. null_transformation was a tag I considered adding to the below BUR as an umbrella tag including all posts brought up by the search ~*tn_transformation ~nt*_transformation but decided against it as I thought it'd create tag clutter, seeing how no female_transformation, etc. tag exists. if people want, however, I'm fine with it being added to the BUR.

I agree with the need to distinguish between null and nullo better and so will be editing some related wiki pages to make their focus clearer in a couple days if I see no replies.

The bulk update request #2116 is pending approval.

Reason: see above post

user2003 said:
The bulk update request #2116 is pending approval.

create implication ftn_transformation (0) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication itn_transformation (0) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication mtn_transformation (19) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication atn_transformation (1) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication gtn_transformation (5) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication htn_transformation (0) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication mhtn_transformation (0) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication ntf_transformation (0) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication nti_transformation (0) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication ntm_transformation (5) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication nta_transformation (0) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication ntg_transformation (0) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication nth_transformation (0) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication ntmh_transformation (0) -> gender_transformation (14118)
create implication ntn_transformation (0) -> gender_transformation (14118)

Reason: see above post

I agree with this one for having the right tags for the specific transformation of what genitals become what, no arguments about that

however, the whole point for the disambiguation was to stop the problem that inspired me to want to have this whole update happen, in the fact that as it stands currently, that nullification tag is *intended* to be used for surgical removal of genitals, when a good majority of the time, it is not being used for that, and is also being used for the fantastical methods of transformation however everything being lumped together because it is the closest relevant thing is a large problem, because, like the event that inspired me to make the bur, of searching the tag and there being a post of someone's dick being ripped off right on the first page despite me having amputation and dismemberment blacklisted, because people forgetting to tag things, and the problem of the content of the kink desired being under a tag that does not entirely fit it, and I'm sure plenty of others have had a similar issue of seeing things they don't want to see, blacklists are only as effective as the people who tag their stuff, and stuff under a tag that is being misattributed are likely to have lots of wrong tags itself

at the bare minimum that description page needs to be changed if its not disambiguated, to take into account that lots of people are using the tag in a way that *isn't* the gory removal of genitals, but I feel like it very much still should be disambiguated into separate kinks so the risk of someone seeing stuff they don't want to is much much lower

loki_the_vulpix said:
and there being a post of someone's dick being ripped off right on the first page despite me having amputation and dismemberment blacklisted

penectomy and castration don't have either of those two tags implied when they probably should. That could be the real problem you're having here.
If your blacklist is missing those or simply genital_mutilation, you want to fix that.
If the post was missing all of the above tags, report it and add them.

loki_the_vulpix said:
at the bare minimum that description page needs to be changed if its not disambiguated, to take into account that lots of people are using the tag in a way that *isn't* the gory removal of genitals, but I feel like it very much still should be disambiguated into separate kinks so the risk of someone seeing stuff they don't want to is much much lower

I still think that null/ification tagging is a mess, but as concepts like null_bulge are trend-kinks ^{and as a side-note I don't consider chastity-type bulges to be valid null} 90% of the tagging is going to bypass wiki readership anyway. Any fixes are going to need to be built around herding the userbase at the tagging level.

In the interest of bringing everything together I've updated the OP for topic #27736 and done a bit more thinking.

loki_the_vulpix said:
create alias nullification -> nullification_(disambiguation)
create implication nullification_amputation -> amputation

I can't +1 this BUR in its current state.
nullification_amputation is a non-tag that should more likely be covered by penectomy and castration instead of routing directly to amputation (though for vulva->nullo I don't think there's a current option beyond genital_mutilation)
I also prefer as-realistically-defined nullification to maintain a catch-all term, as there is no specific grouping for penectomy and castration together, and no tag I'm aware of at all for surgical nullification of female genitalia. Transformation tags are a good solution to separate fantastical procedures from realistic ones, though. I imagine there'll be some teething issues but hopefully it could catch on.

As mentioned in the other threads I'd also like to hear community thoughts on ^{invalidating null itself and shifting it to a mix of lore tagging, null_bulge, and chastity_bulge} redefining fully-featureless null into nullspace (see post #2060474) in order to distance its terminology from nullo while creating a distinction from stylistic-decision-featureless_crotch.

I do also agree that null_bulge ^{and if possible, additionally chastity_bulge for when it's an encasement and not a transformation} could do with separating out of other null classifications.