The bulk update request #1228 is active.

Reason: It is common knowledge among people who frequent the forums (I hope) that Unicode tags are currently being replaced due to the potential to cause bugs.

Aside from that, ōkami/okami and amaterasu are too ambiguous to use without a suffix.

• okami_*

• amaterasu_*

The following BUR must be requested only after the above one is approved, otherwise it will be blocked by the active tag relationships.

alias ōkami -> okami_(disambiguation)
alias okami -> okami_(disambiguation)
category okami_(disambiguation) -> invalid

alias amaterasu -> amaterasu_(disambiguation)
category amaterasu_(disambiguation) -> invalid

OBSERVATION: the alias #26321 is bugged due to its use of an uppercase Unicode character and therefore must be removed manually by an admin.

UPDATE: The bugged tag relationships have been deleted.

EDIT: The bulk update request #1228 (forum #315390) has been approved by @gattonero2001.

Should probably be ookami since ō indicates a long-o sound, which is usually denoted as oo when written without the macron (and when translating Japanese, the long-o sound is written as ō or oo, not just o).

watsit said:
Should probably be ookami since ō indicates a long-o sound, which is usually denoted as oo when written without the macron (and when translating Japanese, the long-o sound is written as ō or oo, not just o).

Things like this is exactly why I think not accepting some basic Unicode characters is ridiculous... e621 isn't running on a 1970s IBM terminal or anything.

watsit said:
Should probably be ookami since ō indicates a long-o sound, which is usually denoted as oo when written without the macron (and when translating Japanese, the long-o sound is written as ō or oo, not just o).

Ookami just looks wrong though. It might define how to pronounce it, but it's hideous and misspelled.

furrin_gok said:
Ookami just looks wrong though.

Depends on what you're used to, I guess. Okami looks wrong to me, like someone didn't know how to romanize it correctly. I've always seen the word translated as ookami, with okami being a rare outlier.

I am aware of how the word is romanized. However, this is the name of a video game, and the original pronunciation is not reflected in English language speech. Using "ookami" would just confuse most of the site's users.

gattonero2001 said:
However, this is the name of a video game, and the original pronunciation is not reflected in English language speech. Using "ookami" would just confuse most of the site's users.

The name of the game is "ōkami", which is "ookami" when written without the macron. English speakers know that "ookami" (or "ōkami") is the Japanese word for "wolf", which is what the main character of the game is. They also know ō represents a long-o and can also be written as "oo". The Japanese title is 大神, which is also pronounced "ookami"/"ōkami" (not quite a play on words, as I wager it's etymologically deliberate, but 狼 (wolf) and 大神 (great god) are both pronounced and romanized as "ookami"/"ōkami").

Making the tag "okami" without the macron is incorrect on all fronts. If "ōkami" with the macron is unsuitable, "ookami" would be the alternative. And if there's enough confusion, an alias can be made for it, so that doesn't seem like a good reason to have a misspelled tag (that's part of the function of the alias system, to work around users' common misspellings or use of shorthand).

watsit said:
The name of the game is "ōkami", which is "ookami" when written without the macron. English speakers know that "ookami" (or "ōkami") is the Japanese word for "wolf", which is what the main character of the game is. They also know ō represents a long-o and can also be written as "oo". The Japanese title is 大神, which is also pronounced "ookami"/"ōkami" (not quite a play on words, as I wager it's etymologically deliberate, but 狼 (wolf) and 大神 (great god) are both pronounced and romanized as "ookami"/"ōkami").

Making the tag "okami" without the macron is incorrect on all fronts. If "ōkami" with the macron is unsuitable, "ookami" would be the alternative. And if there's enough confusion, an alias can be made for it, so that doesn't seem like a good reason to have a misspelled tag (that's part of the function of the alias system, to work around users' common misspellings or use of shorthand).

Whenever I read "oo" I read it as "ooh" or "ook", like a monkey's speech. A single O reads more like "oh" than two.
If you're removing an accent, just remove the accent. It looks closets that way.
ò, ŏ, ó, ô, and ō all look like o to me. Never like "ou" or "oo".

watsit said:
English speakers know that "ookami" (or "ōkami") is the Japanese word for "wolf"

If I had ever learned that fact before your post, I had forgotten. Don't assume English speaker's knowledge of Japanese. Not even of how keikaku means plan.

Before finally playing the game myself on the Switch, my only real exposure to the game was a GDQ marathon, where it was written as Okami for the stream/schedule/etc. and pronounced oh-kami. It's also written Okami on speedrun.com, on GameFAQs, and on probably hundreds of other primarily English speaking game websites.

watsit said:
Should probably be ookami since ō indicates a long-o sound, which is usually denoted as oo when written without the macron (and when translating Japanese, the long-o sound is written as ō or oo, not just o).

I feel that if we go with ookami this would open a precedent and every tag that have a diacritic instead of simply removing it, we would need to rename it in the way it's pronouced. For example, if we go with ookami, these next tags would also need to follow it:

• louise_françoise_le_blanc_de_la_vallière
• françoise would be fransoise instead of francoise.

• araçari
• Would be arasari instead of aracari.

It gets really weird. So I vote for okami we can simply put the way it was meant to be written on the Wiki of the tag, this way it don't open a precedent.

animperfectpatsy said:
If I had ever learned that fact before your post, I had forgotten. Don't assume English speaker's knowledge of Japanese.

Generally speaking. There will always be exceptions to a rule, but that doesn't make the rule invalid. It's not about the English speaker's knowledge of Japanese, it's about a typical English speaker's knowledge of the word "ookami". If someone doesn't know or remember that word, that's irrelevant to other people who are using the word.

sieghelm_lockayer said:
I feel that if we go with ookami this would open a precedent and every tag that have a diacritic instead of simply removing it, we would need to rename it in the way it's pronouced. For example, if we go with ookami, these next tags would also need to follow it:

• louise_françoise_le_blanc_de_la_vallière
• françoise would be fransoise instead of francoise.

Francoise is how the name has historically been spelled in English, so there's no reason to change that. I wouldn't advocate for pokaymon instead of pokemon without its diacritic, either. But "ookami" is how I most often see the word spelled in English without the diacritic. That the word with the diacritic also happens to be a title of a game doesn't change that.

watsit said:
(…)

For the purposes of e621, visual similarity is more important than phonetic accuracy. The main purpose of the tag is to be recognizable, and in that aspect okami is closer to ōkami than the alternative.

watsit said:
But "ookami" is how I most often see the word spelled in English without the diacritic. That the word with the diacritic also happens to be a title of a game doesn't change that.

English was not written to obey any sense of phonics, so any attempts to argue that that's the proper way to write it seem rather silly. It's best to write it as a single letter when removing a diacritic. æ is one of the few things I'd split into two letters, simply because it looks like ae merged into one.
One person can read oo as coat, another can read it as cook. My dictionary even uses that to represent the latter pronunciation, not the former like you're suggesting. If your dictionary contradicts that, then it's only proof that no letter combination is proper, it should be a single letter.

My vote would be for okami rather than ookami, both for the aforementioned reason of it being most visually similar, and because I have never seen anyone write the game's title as ookami. Unrelated anime or uses of the japanese word for "wolf", sure, but never for this title.

furrin_gok said:
Whenever I read "oo" I read it as "ooh" or "ook", like a monkey's speech. A single O reads more like "oh" than two.
If you're removing an accent, just remove the accent. It looks closets that way.
ò, ŏ, ó, ô, and ō all look like o to me. Never like "ou" or "oo".

Also in agreement with this. Writing it as ookami would make me immediately think it's pronounced with the same vowel sound as "threw" or "too". Not the "long o" sound the Japanese use, even despite knowing that's what it's supposed to stand for.

More post-BUR script:

furrin_gok said:
update shiranui -> shiranui_(okami)

Should be careful with mass updates. There were a few deleted posts tagged shiranui that were intended to be mai_shiranui from a completely different game that would've got changed (I've fixed them now). And since there are only 12 left that seem to reference the ōkami character (1 deleted + 11 active), it might be better to just change them manually after the first BUR goes through to ensure there aren't any uses referencing a different character by that time.

watsit said:
Should be careful with mass updates. There were a few deleted posts tagged shiranui that were intended to be mai_shiranui from a completely different game that would've got changed (I've fixed them now). And since there are only 12 left that seem to reference the ōkami character (1 deleted + 11 active), it might be better to just change them manually after the first BUR goes through to ensure there aren't any uses referencing a different character by that time.

Oh, I looked into the existing pictures, but not the deleted ones.

furrin_gok said:
imply hanagami -> okami_(capcom)

Would it be worth adding Sakigami, Hasugami, and Tsutagami individually, rather than just Hanagami? The three monkeys are typically shown together, but I figured it'd be worth asking anyways.

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Other related character tags below. It should be noted that many of the characters in this game are based on Japanese mythological or folkloric figures, including deities/kami (as is the case with Amaterasu and Susano). So many of these should (probably) get a _(okami) suffix.

The bulk update request #1228 (forum #315390) has been approved by @gattonero2001.

The tag alias ōkamiden -> okami_(capcom) has been rejected by @gattonero2001.