Aliasing facefuck → forced_oral
Link to alias

Reason:

Face_fuck is aliased to it, so this one probably should be too.

parasprite said:
Aliasing facefuck → forced_oral
Link to alias

Reason:

Face_fuck is aliased to it, so this one probably should be too.

You can face_fuck someone without forcing, you know?

NoctemWerewolf said:
You can face_fuck someone without forcing, you know?

Potentially, yes. However, on a static image it tends to look like either "a thrusting face_fuck" or "plain old fellatio", which is one of the reasons why face_fuck ended up being aliased to forced_oral (the other reason being that it is easier to define and less specific to fellatio). (see forum #16974)

If you think you might have a potential argument for breaking the face_fuck -> forced_oral alias, I'd like to hear it. If that happens, we would probably end up aliasing facefuck -> face_fuck instead (unless we can decide on a different tag altogether).

parasprite said:
If that happens, we would probably end up aliasing facefuck -> facefuck instead (unless we can decide on a different tag altogether).

Those are the same two tags.

Furrin_Gok said:
Those are the same two tags.

There aren't any underscores that I accidently forgot to add, you must be seeing things. >.>

parasprite said:
Potentially, yes. However, on a static image it tends to look like either "a thrusting face_fuck" or "plain old fellatio", which is one of the reasons why face_fuck ended up being aliased to forced_oral (the other reason being that it is easier to define and less specific to fellatio). (see forum #16974)

If you think you might have a potential argument for breaking the face_fuck -> forced_oral alias, I'd like to hear it. If that happens, we would probably end up aliasing facefuck -> face_fuck instead (unless we can decide on a different tag altogether).

By concept is the action of thrusting the hips on the face or pushing the head to the crotch. The nature of the action is often assoiated with force or dominance for reasons I don't know, which leads to used in that matter.

Althoug I do prefer a separation from the old fellatio there are a few examples of face_fuck that doesn't look like forced.

To be honest about 3/4 or so of face_fuck within the site are indeed forced or similar, however I found some examples of it that may not suggest forced.

post #109940 post #452932 post #360339 post #99167 post #77804 post #64082 post #42321 post #40651 post #165935 post #163926 post #152621 post #150840 post #133503 post #492395

Facefucking doesn't equate to rape.

Ko-san said:
Facefucking doesn't equate to rape.

Indeed It doesn't

forced doesn't equate to rape either, so I'm not sure how that's relevant...?

"Forced may refer to images, or flashes showing one character making another character doing something they do not want to do. It may be non-sexual (example: a slave being forced to do chores or hard labor), or sexual in nature, it may also refer to rape into forcing the character to pleasure of the other"

Rape is aliased to forced. As facefucking can be consensual, it should not be aliased to forced.

Does it have an implication to rough_sex, though?

Ko-san said:
"Forced may refer to images, or flashes showing one character making another character doing something they do not want to do. It may be non-sexual (example: a slave being forced to do chores or hard labor), or sexual in nature, it may also refer to rape into forcing the character to pleasure of the other"

Rape is aliased to forced. As facefucking can be consensual, it should not be aliased to forced.

1. Rape is implicated to forced. That is, you can't have rape without bit being forced.
2. Intent is extremely difficult to tell from an image. All of the forced/rape tags have this same problem, and forced_oral is no exception.
3. Facefuck should be aliased, essentially because face_fuck already is.
4. Remember that not everyone here has English as their first language, the tags need to keep that in mind. Nuances are a bitch to catch when it isn't your first language.

Face_fuck may or may not be forced, however by aliasing it to forced_oral it isn't saying that face_fuck is always forced, it's saying "facefucking is either going to look forced or look like fellatio 99.9% of the time". It's a way of pseudo-invalidating it while still making 99.9% of the posts go to the right place.

It's the same concept as with aliasing homosexual to gay even though gay implicates males and implies male/male sex. Yes homosexual women exist, a lot of them. However, in English usage, homo/homosexual/gay/fag tend to be used for males because of the huge stigma, therefore it was all aliased to gay.

It's better to have a visually descriptive tag like forced_oral that can, by itself, clarify usage than to have a non-visually descriptive tag like face_fuck which has both definitional baggage and is likely to have mixed interpretation (one user mentioned snout_fuck being potentially misinterpreted as face_fuck.

Circeus said:
Does it have an implication to rough_sex, though?

That's actually not a bad idea. I don't know if it really qualifies though since although it's forced, it's not always visually rough. Both for rape and forced_oral I mean.

I mean they could be just completely tied up and being used like a sex doll. I wouldn't really see that as being rough_sex (granted I'd have trouble tagging that as rape unless they were crying or it was a sequence or something).

parasprite said:
It's better to have a visually descriptive tag like forced_oral that can, by itself, clarify usage than to have a non-visually descriptive tag like face_fuck which has both definitional baggage and is likely to have mixed interpretation (one user mentioned snout_fuck being potentially misinterpreted as face_fuck.

But that's the point, forced_oral This is the definition from the wiki:
"A character being forced to perform oral sex. This may be indicated by any sort of contraption that restricts movement of the character (bondage) or by forced movement of the head. It is sometimes a nonconsensual act of rape, but also happens to be a common theme in domination/submission sex."

face_fuck however it's an action where character A is either thrusting the hips towards character B OR kneeling like this post #152621

In regards about saying that tags should keep in mind that not everyone has english as main language, I must say that english IS NOT my main language, so I can tell you before hand that fellatio is known as the action of giving someone a blowjob in any latin based language, because fellatio actually comes from the Latin, so basically spanish, french, italian and portuguese know the meaning, so that's really not a problem.

And definitely face_fuck is not 99.99% suggesting forced, as you said, indeed it is hard to known the context of the images, but if we apply the TWYS method a signigficant fellatio, blowjob pictures that look like face_fuck do NOT represent forced, in either facial expresions or furniture or contraptions.

here are some examples post #452932 post #21620 post #28740 post #61509 post #215056

I just randomly searched for fellatio and took some examples that look like face fuck and removed forced for the search terms, there are a lot of images under fellatio and that doesn't look forced BUT look like face_fuck.

Like I said face_fuck is an action of fucking the face, NOT raping the face. that's it shouldn't be aliased. IF an image that contains face_fuck but doesn't looks forced it misleads the user and vice versa, they should be separate tags that can be used dependending on TWYS not in a supposition of It may look because of the rest.

Somehow the Wiki description of face_fuck has been nuked to say "defunct tag"

So what I'm getting from this is that both face_fuck and facefuck probably should have been aliased to fellatio to begin with, since the connotations of forced don't always apply. Would that be accurate?

I have seen "facefuck" widely used both as a general slang term for all fellatio, or for forceful fellatio, and back again. So it doesn't surprise me the usage is mixed. I think the original wikis for them weren't really that helpful though:

The wiki for facefuck :

Thrusting of the penis into one's mouth. See also: face_fuck, face_fucking

This is basically the very definition of fellatio.

The wiki for face_fuck (this is the one that was already aliased away):

Images or animations depicting a form of fellatio in which the male character being fellated holds onto the head (or antlers or horns, depending on the species) of the person giving him oral sex and either pulls their mouth back and forth on his penis, or thrusts into their mouth in the manner of standard sexual intercourse.

Which sounds like one possible scenario out of the dozens of actual methods of fellatio that people use the word "facefuck" to describe in real life and other porn sites. It also sounds like searching for fellatio + horn_grab and/or head_grab would find you those types of images more reliably than face_fuck ever did even before it was aliased away back in June of 2011. So based on the mixed usage, and the non-helpful wikis, I am unconvinced we need the tag at all. I think aliasing it away to forced_oral was only a partial fit to begin with, though it makes sense that both face_fuck and facefuck should go to the same place in the end.

So I am leaning towards aliasing both facefuck and face_fuck to --> fellatio. Would this be an agreeable solution to everybody?

---------------------

Somehow the Wiki description of face_fuck has been nuked to say "defunct tag"

In this case, that was done several days ago before this suggestion was made, and it was based on the older tag discussion. However, it does bring up a good point. So I am going to make a general statement here since I don't think it's ever been explicitly laid out as an actual rule before: don't jump ahead and change major things (like wikis) before an active discussion is finalized, especially if there is a lot of debate. Sometimes the discussion decides something different by the end of it. And in any case, people need to be able to see all the variables while discussing it. I understand that it can happen for well-intentioned reasons, so this is mostly as a rule of thumb. But it is better to hold off until there's a final decision or at least a general consensus. It's a far better order for everything to be processed in.

NoctemWerewolf said:
But that's the point, forced_oral This is the definition from the wiki:
"A character being forced to perform oral sex. This may be indicated by any sort of contraption that restricts movement of the character (bondage) or by forced movement of the head. It is sometimes a nonconsensual act of rape, but also happens to be a common theme in domination/submission sex."

face_fuck however it's an action where character A is either thrusting the hips towards character B OR kneeling like this post #152621

Yeah, that I've been meaning to get to that definition. It's not very clear even grammatically.

I'm thinking something like the following might be more clear to match usage:

A character being forced to perform oral sex. This may be use bondage or imply that the head is being forced (hand_on_head and a look of asphyxiation). However as with the other forced tags, the meaning will vary considerably from picture to picture.

• Generally speaking, the person performing oral sex should be

NoctemWerewolf said:
In regards about saying that tags should keep in mind that not everyone has english as main language, I must say that english IS NOT my main language, so I can tell you before hand that fellatio is known as the action of giving someone a blowjob in any latin based language, because fellatio actually comes from the Latin, so basically spanish, french, italian and portuguese know the meaning, so that's really not a problem.

It was actually more in reference to forced_oral vs. face_fuck, not to fellatio. Single words that have only one very specific definition tend to be very easy to translate.

NoctemWerewolf said:

And definitely face_fuck is not 99.99% suggesting forced, as you said, indeed it is hard to known the context of the images, but if we apply the TWYS method a signigficant fellatio, blowjob pictures that look like face_fuck do NOT represent forced, in either facial expresions or furniture or contraptions.

here are some examples post #452932 post #21620 post #28740 post #61509 post #215056

I just randomly searched for fellatio and took some examples that look like face fuck and removed forced for the search terms, there are a lot of images under fellatio and that doesn't look forced BUT look like face_fuck.

post #452932 They both look pretty passive. If anything it looks like the one on the piano is doing the controlling (hand vaguely on butt, foot propped up for extra leverage). It looks like it could imply either, but it doesn't show any indication of either one: I don't think I would use either tag

post #21620 It looks forced, but it doesn't look like face fucking. It looks like someone is sticking their penis into someone else's mouth.

post #28740 Both face fuck and forced oral

post #61509 Face fucking may have happened, but you can't see it right now: neither tag + hand_on_head

post #215056 Probably the best example of what you are talking about. Receiving character mostly passive, penetrating character has hip movement implied, however the character looks like they are being pulled in: forced oral + face fuck + hand_on_head

NoctemWerewolf said:
Like I said face_fuck is an action of fucking the face, NOT raping the face. that's it shouldn't be aliased. IF an image that contains face_fuck but doesn't looks forced it misleads the user and vice versa, they should be separate tags that can be used dependending on TWYS not in a supposition of It may look because of the rest.

Forced does not mean rape. Forced is an umbrella tag that implies someone is forcing someone to do something, whether they are willing or not is irrelevant.

Tags are almost always defined based on how they are used. There are some cases (gender, orientation) that have to be defined and enforced, but the rest are almost always defined based on how they are used, not how they should be used. Forced has always been hard to define and tags like rape aren't tagged that consistently.

It may be possible to have face_fuck imply forced_oral instead, but I haven't found any images that look like one but not the other.

furrypickle said:

NoctemWerewolf said:

Somehow the Wiki description of face_fuck has been nuked to say "defunct tag"

That is a good point.

So I am going to make a general statement here since I don't think it's ever been explicitly laid out as an actual rule before: don't jump ahead and change major things (like wikis) before an active discussion is finalized, especially if there is a lot of debate. Sometimes the discussion decides something different by the end of it. And in any case, people need to be able to see all the variables while discussing it. I understand that it was probably well-intentioned and just jumping slightly ahead of things. But just hold off in future until there's a final decision or at least a general consensus. It's a better order for everything to be processed in.

I actually did that a few days ago since it was aliased to forced_oral anyways.

I completely agree though. It is in the same line of courtesy as not manually deleting/changing tags before a discussion has ended. I wouldn't have done it if the decision hadn't already been made several years ago in forum #16974.

For convenience, here is the previous definition:

General:face_fuck

Images or animations depicting a form of fellatio in which the male character being fellated holds onto the head (or antlers or horns, depending on the species) of the person giving him oral sex and either pulls their mouth back and forth on his penis, or thrusts into their mouth in the manner of standard sexual intercourse.

I change the facefuck wiki later for the same reason. All based on the previous decision to alias face_fuck.

Notably, it actually had a significantly clearer definition:

General:facefuck

Thrusting of the penis into one's mouth. See also: face_fuck, face_fucking

furrypickle said:

So I am leaning towards aliasing both facefuck and face_fuck to --> fellatio. Would this be an agreeable solution to everybody?

That actually sounds like a much better solution to me. At the very least it should imply fellatio since that's how it is used (and to ensure fellatio gets tagged either way).

furrypickle said:
So what I'm getting from this is that both face_fuck and facefuck probably should have been aliased to fellatio to begin with, since the connotations of forced don't always apply. Would that be accurate?

I think it is more accurate, or at least to oral. My only suggestion is to De-Alias from forced based in TWYS methods.

parasprite said:
It may be possible to have face_fuck imply forced_oral instead, but I haven't found any images that look like one but not the other.

post #538919 based on TWYS this is forced
post #560566 based on TWYS this is face_fuck but not forced

parasprite said:
I actually did that a few days ago since it was aliased to forced_oral anyways. The decision had already been made several years ago in forum #16974.

For convenience, here is the previous definition:

I edited the facefuck wiki based on the previous decision to alias face_fuck.

Yep, and that's fine. It was both before it was brought up for discussion and it was based on the existing alias. There's a reason I didn't single you out. But the first wording was rougher, so my apologies if the wording sounded pointed. I worked it over in editing quite a few times to make it read right eventually. I mainly wanted to put into writing what has long been the un-explicitly stated rule of thumb, and because I realised I don't think I've ever seen it written out in the forums. Instead it's just been left to be "understood" or "intuited" by everyone. I realised that it's far better to have it actually stated somewhere. Hopefully that better clarifies my intentions.

NoctemWerewolf said:
I think it is more accurate, or at least to oral. My only suggestion is to De-Alias from forced based in TWYS methods.

Yes, if everyone agrees then it would be to UN-alias face_fuck from --//--> forced_oral. And then alias both facefuck and face_fuck to --> fellatio instead. And I think fellatio is better for this because all of the definitions for facefuck seem to include fellatio no matter which definition is used. And I also don't think I've ever seen facefuck used for non-penis-oral. While the oral tag is a lot broader and includes things like cunnilingus and rimming. So I think fellatio is the closest we can get without images ending up where they shouldn't.

I know some agree so far. But I'm going to leave this open for a little while to make sure other people see it and get a chance to weigh in on this newest option. A lot of people had something to say earlier and might still.

NoctemWerewolf said:
post #538919 based on TWYS this is forced
post #560566 based on TWYS this is face_fuck but not forced

Interesting. I see forced for the first and both for the second. Good thing I don't really use that tag anyways.

I would prefer an implication. Aliasing the terms "face fucking", "throat fucking" or "skull fucking" to fellatio would be no better than aliasing sex positions to sex given it's an actual position or act in itself.

parasprite said:
Interesting. I see forced for the first and both for the second. Good thing I don't really use that tag anyways.

Highly debatable about the second one, but anyways.
I think the best course of action is to separate facefuck from forced, and implicate fellatio from it.

parasprite said:
That's actually not a bad idea. I don't know if it really qualifies though since although it's forced, it's not always visually rough. Both for rape and forced_oral I mean.

I mean they could be just completely tied up and being used like a sex doll. I wouldn't really see that as being rough_sex (granted I'd have trouble tagging that as rape unless they were crying or it was a sequence or something).

Actually I meant that forced_oral is fellatio + forced, but facefuck is fellatio + rough_sex. They may be correlated strongly, but they are still different combinations of tags. Forced_oral without rough_sex happens: post #21399 post #357861

Circeus said:
Actually I meant that forced_oral is fellatio + forced, but facefuck is fellatio + rough_sex. They may be correlated strongly, but they are still different combinations of tags. Forced_oral without rough_sex happens: post #21399 post #357861

forced_oral is fellatio/cunnilingus/rimming + forced*