Here's me, a user with a love for a few species, uncommonly anthropomorphosized by the high class illustrators compared to the titanic pool for oh ... canines. I go and type "mouse order:score" into the search bar, and the majority of content is spot on, but some are for the most part unrelated with the exception of maybe a small mouse hiding behind a hole in the wall? My question is, what do you think, random forum reader; should we sacrifice tag consistency to improve search results?

There are ambient_* tags to help with this, such as ambient_bird

DiceLovesBeingBlown said:
There are ambient_* tags to help with this, such as ambient_bird

Well take this into account: say you're looking for hot mouse pics, and you do add -ambient_mouse. Sure, this will exclude all pics with ambient_mouse in them while leaving pics that have a non-ambient mouse alone...except when a pic has *both* a mouse character and an ambient_mouse, which will cause that pic to be excluded even though it has what you want. You can't exclude ambient_mouse while making an exception for mouse because ambient_mouse implies mouse. Also, ambient_* excludes animals that are being directly interacted with. So if, say, there's a pic with a dog on all fours getting railed by a horse while petting his pet mouse, the pic wouldn't get excluded because technically, that's not an ambient_mouse. In that sense, we'd need ambient_*, anthropomorphic_* and feral_* tags for every species.

Also, there isn't an ambient_mouse tag to begin with.

See, this is why I don't blacklist. It's worth putting up with a few scat pics to know that I'm not missing out on good pics that were mis-tagged (or finding pics that I didn't want because they weren't tagged). Try doing a search for `rating:e -penis -balls -vagina -anus -boobs` (a search that should return pretty much nothing) some time and you'll see what I mean.

hungryman said:
Well take this into account: say you're looking for hot mouse pics, and you do add -ambient_mouse. Sure, this will exclude all pics with ambient_mouse in them while leaving pics that have a non-ambient mouse alone...except when a pic has *both* a mouse character and an ambient_mouse, which will cause that pic to be excluded even though it has what you want. You can't exclude ambient_mouse while making an exception for mouse because ambient_mouse implies mouse. Also, ambient_* excludes animals that are being directly interacted with. So if, say, there's a pic with a dog on all fours getting railed by a horse while petting his pet mouse, the pic wouldn't get excluded because technically, that's not an ambient_mouse. In that sense, we'd need ambient_*, anthropomorphic_* and feral_* tags for every species.

Also, there isn't an ambient_mouse tag to begin with.

See, this is why I don't blacklist. It's worth putting up with a few scat pics to know that I'm not missing out on good pics that were mis-tagged (or finding pics that I didn't want because they weren't tagged). Try doing a search for `rating:e -penis -balls -vagina -anus -boobs` (a search that should return pretty much nothing) some time and you'll see what I mean.

That's more of an issue with improper and undertagging rather than overtagging imho

I have just woken up and have many things to do, so I will be brief:

10 there is not an ambient_mouse or ambient_rat tag. Yet. I think one is a good idea. is Ambient_rodent good?

hungryman said:
Well take this into account: say you're looking for hot mouse pics, and you do add -ambient_mouse. Sure, this will exclude all pics with ambient_mouse in them while leaving pics that have a non-ambient mouse alone...except when a pic has *both* a mouse character and an ambient_mouse, which will cause that pic to be excluded even though it has what you want.

Quite bluntly, that situation is unlikely, but in the event there was a picture of, say, a mouse in a dungeon with mice scurrying around, *I* wouldn't tag ambient_mouse because it would damage the search-ability. Further, an ambient mouse in that situation is likely to not be an ambient mouse at all... because the artist likely intended some irony and the house-mouse is intended to be noticed.. This problem is more likely with bats, where you're likely to have a bat character with ambient bats for added spookiness.

That said, do you have a better proposal?

You can't exclude ambient_mouse while making an exception for mouse because ambient_mouse implies mouse. Also, ambient_* excludes animals that are being directly interacted with. So if, say, there's a pic with a dog on all fours getting railed by a horse while petting his pet mouse, the pic wouldn't get excluded because technically, that's not an ambient_mouse.

Well quite bluntly, the mouse is part of that picture. If they were feeding a baby, young would still be tagged. If that were a small-sized anthro mouse being caressed, it would still be tagged. For better or for worse, the pet mouse is part of the image, which can be summed up a "Horse fucks a dog who is petting a mouse." which is very different from "Horse fucks a dog who has a pet mouse in a cage in the back of the room" or "horse fucks a dog in a dungeon with rats running around."

In that sense, we'd need ambient_*, anthropomorphic_* and feral_* tags for every species.

What? this wouldn't fix anything o.O an ambient mouse is still a feral mouse just as much as it's a mouse. All what you're suggesting would do would make us have to take something like one and a half million pictures with anthropomorphic_whatever o_o

Also, there isn't an ambient_mouse tag to begin with.

An oversight. Despite common conceptions, we're not perfect, and sometimes miss things. When I started the ambient tags, I was more focused on butterflies and fish.

See, this is why I don't blacklist. It's worth putting up with a few scat pics to know that I'm not missing out on good pics that were mis-tagged (or finding pics that I didn't want because they weren't tagged). Try doing a search for `rating:e -penis -balls -vagina -anus -boobs` (a search that should return pretty much nothing) some time and you'll see what I mean.

As has been said, this is a result of improper tagging, not a flaw in the tagging plan. That said, it's totally up to you if you don't want to blacklist stuff. I don't either. I'm not bothered enough by anything to not want to see it.

That said, I'm not really sure what your point is.

If you have a solution to this problem that doesn't involve retagging every single image on the website, please feel free to come forward.

DiceLovesBeingBlown said:
That's more of an issue with improper and undertagging rather than overtagging imho

SnowWolf said:
As has been said, this is a result of improper tagging, not a flaw in the tagging plan. That said, it's totally up to you if you don't want to blacklist stuff. I don't either. I'm not bothered enough by anything to not want to see it.

Absolutely! And imo the issues inherent in decentralized user-generated tagging undermines the concept of a tag-based blacklist, which is precisely why I don't use it.

SnowWolf said:
Quite bluntly, that situation is unlikely, but in the event there was a picture of, say, a mouse in a dungeon with mice scurrying around, *I* wouldn't tag ambient_mouse because it would damage the search-ability. Further, an ambient mouse in that situation is likely to not be an ambient mouse at all... because the artist likely intended some irony and the house-mouse is intended to be noticed.. This problem is more likely with bats, where you're likely to have a bat character with ambient bats for added spookiness.

That said, do you have a better proposal?
...
What? this wouldn't fix anything o.O an ambient mouse is still a feral mouse just as much as it's a mouse. All what you're suggesting would do would make us have to take something like one and a half million pictures with anthropomorphic_whatever o_o

Well, the {ambient/anthropomorhic/feral}_* tags are that proposal, and as you indicated, it's not exactly elegant.

Although on the matter of re-tagging 1.5 mil pics, isn't that the point of aliasing and implicating? {species} would alias to anthro_{species}. Granted, it might be an issue with different "types" of anthros (like the ones that walk on all fours but are capable of acting like humans nonetheless).

Really, the bottom line here (and what I believe this thread boils down to) is distinguishing animals from furs, so that a search for mouse can actually yield pics of mouse bois getting reamed instead of a picture that happens to have a literal mouse somewhere off in the corner, and a search for something else (perhaps mouse_(animal)?) would bring up the latter. Granted, if I search for a type of animal (like mouse), I *could* mean the furry kind or the animal kind and there's no real way to distinguish the intent behind that search. Although I think it's safe to assume most users intend to see mouse bois getting reamed, so an animal-specific tag could prove very useful. And for the 1.5 mil, maybe make a stickied post mentioning the new tag "slartibartfast" (example name) and ask people to volunteer to add the tag whenever they see a pic that doesn't have it but fits the description--hell, even put up a link to `/-slartibartfast` so that volunteers can go through en-masse. Every time I experience friction searching something, for instance, I investigate the tags and the tag wikis and usually end up editing the tags to fix it. So I don't think 1.5 mil would be too much of a burden. It would take a while to settle in, but we could make it happen.

Well quite bluntly, the mouse is part of that picture. If they were feeding a baby, young would still be tagged. If that were a small-sized anthro mouse being caressed, it would still be tagged. For better or for worse, the pet mouse is part of the image, which can be summed up a "Horse fucks a dog who is petting a mouse." which is very different from "Horse fucks a dog who has a pet mouse in a cage in the back of the room" or "horse fucks a dog in a dungeon with rats running around."

Oh, I wasn't saying that's a problem. I was just using the example to illustrate what does and doesn't constitute an "ambient" species according to the tag wiki. I.e. that ambient_mouse doesn't simply mean that it's a literal mouse, but rather that it has to be in the background such that editing it out wouldn't affect the subject matter.

An oversight. Despite common conceptions, we're not perfect, and sometimes miss things. When I started the ambient tags, I was more focused on butterflies and fish.

An oversight that's not your fault. Don't start feeling like just because you're a volunteer that all the burden is on you to keep the site clean. I try to help out where I can, too, even though I'm not a 'janitor'. What's a community for, after all? We're in this together, an unlikely community of people who look at furry porn while categorizing it for future use.

Also, I was just stating an observation, and didn't mean any criticism by it, so don't worry about that :)

That said, I'm not really sure what your point is.

The point was just to illustrate that tags aren't foolproof. Though I get the feeling that my post was interpreted as argumentative/confrontational rather than a simple "what about X?" corner case.

If you have a solution to this problem that doesn't involve retagging every single image on the website, please feel free to come forward.

I think a tag specific to "non-furry" animals could prove to be useful. I notice that the specific tag animal is in the list of deprecated tags. So it could be re-purposed to that end and slowly integrated.

hungryman said:
Well, the {ambient/anthropomorhic/feral}_* tags are that proposal, and as you indicated, it's not exactly elegant.

Although on the matter of re-tagging 1.5 mil pics, isn't that the point of aliasing and implicating? {species} would alias to anthro_{species}. Granted, it might be an issue with different "types" of anthros (like the ones that walk on all fours but are capable of acting like humans nonetheless).

Uhm. Anthro, on this site, is a body type, and has no judgement on a characters mental abilities or intelligence:

These are all feral lions:

post #1612567 post #1635996 post #1562460 post #1461181 post #1455572

So, right now there are 23201 pictures tagged lion... if we aliased lion to anthro_lion, every single one of them would be tagged anthro_lion... which would be very incorrect for all of the feral lion images out there. There are around 4000 of them. There are 240,400 feral pictures out there.

There are also the taurs, animal_heads, and a few other body_types kicking around where replacing "lion" with "anthro_lion" would be wrong

Really, the bottom line here (and what I believe this thread boils down to) is distinguishing animals from furs, so that a search for mouse can actually yield pics of mouse bois getting reamed instead of a picture that happens to have a literal mouse somewhere off in the corner, and a search for something else (perhaps mouse_(animal)?) would bring up the latter. Granted, if I search for a type of animal (like mouse), I *could* mean the furry kind or the animal kind and there's no real way to distinguish the intent behind that search.

Well, the problem with that is.. while it's VERY clear in some places, it's impossible to tell in others.

I mean... Of these, which ones are 'intelligent' and which ones are not?

post #1648932 post #1621981 post #1600310 post #1561748 post #1541631 post #1531884 post #1506783

Although I think it's safe to assume most users intend to see mouse bois getting reamed, so an animal-specific tag could prove very useful.

Most, but not all. but while animal specific tags WOULD be useful.... that doesn't change the 1.5 million posts.

And for the 1.5 mil, maybe make a stickied post mentioning the new tag "slartibartfast" (example name) and ask people to volunteer to add the tag whenever they see a pic that doesn't have it but fits the description--hell, even put up a link to `/-slartibartfast` so that volunteers can go through en-masse. Every time I experience friction searching something, for instance, I investigate the tags and the tag wikis and usually end up editing the tags to fix it. So I don't think 1.5 mil would be too much of a burden. It would take a while to settle in, but we could make it happen.

Sadly, you are one of the rare few. most people ignore the news posts and go on with their fapping. Honestly, this is a lot of tagging. like.. I've done the math before. a million pictures is this is something like 60 days of straight tagging with no sleeping, eating, or anything, just one picture every 5 seconds. But it usually takes longer than 5 seconds to take a picture. Even with 60 people helping, that's still over 24 hours of tagging for all of you without breaks.

I have run really, really big tagging projects YEARS ago when the site was WAY smaller with a lot more bright eyesd volunteers and something like this is a project that never gets finished.

An oversight that's not your fault. Don't start feeling like just because you're a volunteer that all the burden is on you to keep the site clean. I try to help out where I can, too, even though I'm not a 'janitor'. What's a community for, after all? We're in this together, an unlikely community of people who look at furry porn while categorizing it for future use.

Tha'ts very true. :) I try not to blame myself too much for things like that, but thankfully, most things like this are easily fixed -- just add a new tag and tag away. Sadly, I"ve been pretty busy lately, so I havn't been able to do much tagging or whatnot lately. I wish our little community was a bit bigger--there are more pictures being posted now than ever before and it is certainly a challenge to make sure that everything is properly tagged.

The point was just to illustrate that tags aren't foolproof. Though I get the feeling that my post was interpreted as argumentative/confrontational rather than a simple "what about X?" corner case.

There are a lot of peopel who come in here and demand alternative tags in various ways without really considering how much work would go into it... generally very aggressively,

Sadly, no tagging scheme is perfect, though -- I have some ideas of how we could make thigns better and mor perfect -- but they're the sort of thing that involves a massive recode of the site, and all of it's workings, and one by one manual importing and approving of a huge sea of images. aka, "well that's not happening" :)

I think a tag specific to "non-furry" animals could prove to be useful. I notice that the specific tag animal is in the list of deprecated tags. So it could be re-purposed to that end and slowly integrated.

Well, generally, the tag for that is "feral" ... but you mean non0intelligent animals.. which goes to the previous problem: it's hard to tell. for every black and white case, there's a lot of gray.

Plus, i don't know if it really solves any problems. animals can participate in the main image just as easily as ferals can... but maybe I misunderstand what the point of hte tag would be.