This was suggested three years ago (forum #51945) but was never resolved.

is in the public vernacular, but it's imprecise. Creating separate tags for mutual_handjob and mutual_fingering ought to reduce some confusion, similar to how gay has been phased out in favor of male/male.

Despite the current name, mutual_masturbation should usually not be tagged as masturbation. So yes, changing the name seems like a good idea. The current one is too confusing.

I definitely think mutual_handjob/mutual_fingering would be a step up from mutual_masturbation, but it might be nice to have a catchall tag for it. Perhaps something like mutual_sex?

Maybe that'd work, although...
Non-consensual sex is often called non-mutual, so mutual_sex might end up tagged for consensual sex by some users.

How about mutual_stimulation? Google Edit: Yeah, never mind the Google hit count. That's almost always off by something like 90%. Still seems like a fitting term, though.

Genjar said:
Maybe that'd work, although...
Non-consensual sex is often called non-mutual, so mutual_sex might end up tagged for consensual sex by some users.

How about mutual_stimulation? Google finds ~100000 porn-related hits for that, seems like a common enough alternative term.

only 420 results with verbatim though (not saying we that's not a reason to using it though :3).

The correct term here would be manual_intercourse, I believe.

Clawdragons said:
The correct term here would be manual_intercourse, I believe.

To me, that doesn't evoke the mutual-ness of the act.

Anyway, while we try to figure out what the catch-all term should be, I'm gonna go ahead and start tagging mutual_handjob and mutual_fingering. I won't remove mutual_masturbation yet.

EDIT:

Something I hadn't even thought of is pics like this:

post #786025

How should this be tagged?

Clawdragons said:
The correct term here would be manual_intercourse, I believe.

That sounds like you find a way to literally fuck yourself, either by having a dick that bends back into your ass/vagina, or using portals or something.

Maxpizzle said:
To me, that doesn't evoke the mutual-ness of the act.

Anyway, while we try to figure out what the catch-all term should be, I'm gonna go ahead and start tagging mutual_handjob and mutual_fingering. I won't remove mutual_masturbation yet.

EDIT:

Something I hadn't even thought of is pics like this:

post #786025

How should this be tagged?

What about back_and_forth_masturbation? Too vague, or does it work?

What exactly is the problem with Mutual Masturbation?

Ko-san said:
What exactly is the problem with Mutual Masturbation?

It's not masturbation.

Maxpizzle said:
It's not masturbation.

Oh, that chestnut. Technically, it is still recognized as "mutual_masturbation" in practically all circles but other terms used are "non-penetrative_sex" and "foreplay". While technically not the same as mutual_masturbation, some have placed "frottage" in the same category.

Maxpizzle said:
It's not masturbation.

How is mutual masturbation not masturbation?

otterface said:
How is mutual masturbation not masturbation?

Because it's not self pleasure.

Ko-san said:
Because it's not self pleasure.

Masturbation is not necessarily self-pleasure. Every single definition I've ever seen of masturbation just says that it is the stimulation, manually or otherwise, of a person's genitals, by that person or another person. So long as you're not talking about direct sexual intercourse. A person giving another person a handjob is masturbating them.

otterface said:
Masturbation is not necessarily self-pleasure. Every single definition I've ever seen of masturbation just says that it is the stimulation, manually or otherwise, of a person's genitals, by that person or another person. So long as you're not talking about direct sexual intercourse. A person giving another person a handjob is masturbating them.

For the purposes of tagging a character cannot masturbate another character. It's more of a definition compromise than anything.

parasprite said:
For the purposes of tagging a character cannot masturbate another character. It's more of a definition compromise than anything.

I guess if that's the way it is, that's the way it is. Does it not make sense for it to be a catch-all in the same way "canine" is for all dog species though? What if a person is just looking for any and all masturbation of any kind? How would they search for that?

parasprite said:
For the purposes of tagging a character cannot masturbate another character. It's more of a definition compromise than anything.

Would it be something like mutual_rubbing then?

otterface said:
Every single definition I've ever seen of masturbation just says that it is the stimulation, manually or otherwise, of a person's genitals, by that person or another person.

Actually, most sources specifically define it as stimulation of one's own genitalia. Including Merriam Webster, Wikipedia, and the highest rated urban dictionary definitions. So using it that way here isn't much of a compromise.

Genjar said:
Actually, most sources specifically define it as stimulation of one's own genitalia. Including Merriam Webster, Wikipedia, and the highest rated urban dictionary definitions. So using it that way here isn't much of a compromise.

Definition of masturbation

: erotic stimulation especially of one's own genital organs commonly resulting in orgasm and achieved by manual or other bodily contact exclusive of sexual intercourse, by instrumental manipulation, occasionally by sexual fantasies, or by various combinations of these agencies

From Merriam Webster's site. "Especially of one's own" doesn't mean "only of one's own." It's fine if that's the way it's used on this site, but the definition does not exclude stimulation of others' genitals.

Genjar said:
No, MW defines it as:

erotic stimulation especially of one's own genital organs commonly resulting in orgasm and achieved by manual or other bodily contact exclusive of sexual intercourse, by instrumental manipulation, occasionally by sexual fantasies, or by various combinations of these agencies

You may have got it mixed up with the medical dictionary.

Edit: ...and I quoted the wrong text. Sheesh.

Uh, Genjar, that was exactly what Otterface listed as the definition.

Furrin_Gok said:
Uh, Genjar, that was exactly what Otterface listed as the definition.

Yep, I made a mistake and quickly tried to hide it. Awkward.
I only checked the MW definition for masturbate, which simply says to touch or rub your own sexual organs for sexual pleasure. Didn't notice that the main definition was more vague.

Genjar said:
Yep, I made a mistake and quickly tried to hide it. Awkward.
I only checked the MW definition for masturbate, which simply says to touch or rub your own sexual organs for sexual pleasure. Didn't notice that the main definition was more vague.

If you look at the full definition at your link, you'll see that it can be used both intransitively (i.e. masturbate yourself) and transitively (i.e. masturbate someone else)

The definition you quote is the simple definition. I think that's what you're saying here anyway though when you mention the main definition being more vague.

What's wrong with searching for (mutual_masturbation fingering) or (mutual_masturbation handjob)?

mrox said:
What's wrong with searching for (mutual_masturbation fingering) or (mutual_masturbation handjob)?

Nothing, but it tends to get tagged masturbation because of the name.

Furrin_Gok said:
Would it be something like mutual_rubbing then?

I kind of like this one. Also manual_intercourse might work but seems a little obscure, with "intercourse" bringing to mind penetrative intercourse perhaps. Still, I think manual_intercourse or mutual_rubbing could work for this.

While mutual_handjob and mutual_fingering sound better, they may be problematic on any image where one person is being fingered and the other is being handjobbed. The exact type of manual-to-genital contact isn't always the part that's mutual, especially with male/female pairings. mutual_stimulation sounds too broad and would probably get confused for mutual oral (69 position) or frottage/tribadism or even just "someone licks your nipples while you jerk them off" situations.

The mutual_masturbation tag has needed a name fix for awhile now though. I haven't seen it mentioned much yet in this thread, but one problem with the old mutual_masturbation wording is that it is really easy to misunderstand that name as meaning when "we both separately self-pleasure while watching each other/watching porn together/racing each other to see who orgasms first" etc. Which actually fits the name "mutual_masturbation" better. And that view is echoed in how the group_masturbation tag does work.

But like has already been pointed out, the biggest reason mutual_masturbation doesn't work is the same reason that handjob isn't part of masturbation. For tagging we can't have "I use my hands to get you off, while you use your hands to get me off" tagged as *_masturbation. It's a different thing entirely if someone else is doing it to you vs doing it to yourself. And the use of the term "masturbate" to mean self-pleasuring is still by far the most common. Even though some people do use it in a broader sense for all manual stimulation of self or occasionally someone else, it's still more like a dialect and will get you corrected more often than not because "masturbating" is still traditionally seen as something you can only do to yourself. So our restricting the tag to only self-pleasure isn't that unusual.

furrypickle said:
While mutual_handjob and mutual_fingering sound better, they may be problematic on any image where one person is being fingered and the other is being handjobbed. The exact type of manual-to-genital contact isn't always the part that's mutual, especially with male/female pairings.

This is what I realized halfway into my tagging campaign. Oops.

Another issue I saw with mutual_masturbation was that it was being used to tag images like post #11351, which get the "mutual" part but skip the "with your hands" part.

So, the replacement for mutual_masturbation needs to make it clear that it's two partners, stimulating each other's genitalia or anuses, using their hands.

The candidates so far:

• manual_intercourse - does it convey the "mutual" part of the definition?
• mutual_stimulation - would people erroneously use this for non-handsy stuff?
• back_and_forth_masturbation - same problem as mutual_masturbation.
• mutual_fingering/mutual_masturbation - doesn't cover heterogeneous cases.
• mutual_rubbing - excludes fingering, I think.

It seems to me that the "intercourse" part of "manual intercourse" indicates at least two partners. It's not really intercourse if it only involves one person. I really don't see how you all seem to think that the term would be ambiguous in that regard. How often do you hear the term intercourse used to describe solo activities?

I don't know. That objection is very strange to me.

Reciprocal_stimulation?

It might be overly broad or inclusive as a direct replacement for mutual_masturbation, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but reciprocal_stimulation certainly encompasses mutual_masturbation. The challenge with a more ambiguous tag/word like "stimulation" is ensuring that users only associate it with non-genital-to-genital genital stimulation. Alternatively, this replacement tag's intended use can be broadened to include acts like frottage and tribadism rather than strictly adhering to mutual_masturbation's understood meaning. Nonetheless, "reciprocal" should more clearly convey the giving-and-receiving aspect this tag intends to describe than "mutual" does.

There's also reciprocal_outercourse, which somehow manages to seem even broader than reciprocal_stimulation, but at least it's decidedly less ambiguous. Unfortunately, some people seem to associate dry humping (i.e., with clothing as a barrier) with outercourse, so perhaps "outercourse" isn't a good candidate for this discussion.

As an aside, I'm noticing that there doesn't seem to be a tag for non-penetrative_sex (one-off attempts don't count) other than perhaps foreplay, but several common and uncommon tags could easily implicate it to fill it out. I think the only argument against would be tag bloat, but I can see the tag being useful for when -penetration -rating:s -solo just isn't nearly relevant enough.

Clawdragons said:
How often do you hear the term intercourse used to describe solo activities?

Never. But it can refer to any kind of sexual intercourse, and therefore it isn't any clearer than the current tag. Especially considering that 'mutual intercourse' is sometimes used as a synonym for consensual sex. Users would still have to check the wiki to understand how to correctly tag it.

Maxpizzle said:

• mutual_rubbing - excludes fingering, I think.

No, it doesn't. Fingering is a form of rubbing that is sometimes penetrative rubbing, but still rubbing.

Furrin_Gok said:
No, it doesn't. Fingering is a form of rubbing that is sometimes penetrative rubbing, but still rubbing.

Man, I give up.

that_sort_of_sex_where_at_least_two_participants_are_using_their_hands_on_each_others_genitals_for_the_purpose_of_mutual_manual_stimulation_which_some_people_view_because_it_is_erotic_to_them_but_others_may_find_unappealing

On a serious note, if the problem with manual intercourse, as people seem to think, is that it doesn't necessarily evoke the mutualness of the act, what about mutual_manual_intercourse?

Outercourse.

Clawdragons said:
On a serious note, if the problem with manual intercourse, as people seem to think, is that it doesn't necessarily evoke the mutualness of the act, what about mutual_manual_intercourse?

Revisiting this thread after almost a month, it seems to me that this proposal is the most semantically correct.

So: are there any objections to making mutual_manual_intercourse the new mutual_masturbation? If not, I'll make an alias request.

Also: if mutual_manual_intercourse is adopted, would there be any need for mutual_handjob and mutual_fingering, or would searches like mutual_manual_intercourse handjob -fingering suffice?

Maxpizzle said:
Revisiting this thread after almost a month, it seems to me that this proposal is the most semantically correct.

So: are there any objections to making mutual_manual_intercourse the new mutual_masturbation? If not, I'll make an alias request.

Also: if mutual_manual_intercourse is adopted, would there be any need for mutual_handjob and mutual_fingering, or would searches like mutual_manual_intercourse handjob -fingering suffice?

Mutual masturbation is when to people masturbate their own bodies while watching their "partner" masturbate. It's not something to be aliased or implied, it's a separate tag.

Furrin_Gok said:
Mutual masturbation is when to people masturbate their own bodies while watching their "partner" masturbate. It's not something to be aliased or implied, it's a separate tag.

That's group_masturbation.

Maxpizzle said:
Revisiting this thread after almost a month, it seems to me that this proposal is the most semantically correct.

So: are there any objections to making mutual_manual_intercourse the new mutual_masturbation? If not, I'll make an alias request.

Also: if mutual_manual_intercourse is adopted, would there be any need for mutual_handjob and mutual_fingering, or would searches like mutual_manual_intercourse handjob -fingering suffice?

(2 years with apparently not getting to resolution ... let's take another whack at it)

Don't think I want intercourse being in the replacement tag,
as handjobs are in the realm of outercourse.
(with some fingering being outercourse and other fingering being penetrative)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingering_(sexual_act)#Outside_the_vagina
I see e621's fingering wiki says "Inserting the fingers into an orifice. Typically the anus or pussy."
BUT at forum #250575 it has been suggested e621's definition of fingering be changed (to include "or stimulating orifice's exterior") ... maybe try to keep discussion about fingering definition at forum #250575 for the time being)

What range of activity are we wanting to group together under the new tag that is replacing mutual_masturbation ?
Just hands/paws/hooves on genitals?
Or also other appendages on genitals?
(Tail on genital?
All tentacle on genital?
Tentacle on genital, where the tentacle's location on body makes it an equivalent of arm? )

More tag suggestions:
mutual_manual_stimulation
or
mutual_genital_stimulation
(I kinda like Furrin Gok's suggestion of "mutual_rubbing", but there are other kinds of rubbing)

here are the current mutual* tags (ALL type general):

20 mutual
8 mutual_anal
1 mutual_appreciation
5 mutual_breastfeeding
6 mutual_fellatio
23 mutual_fingering
48 mutual_footjob , wiki: mutual_footjob
87 mutual_handjob
20 mutual_knotting , wiki mutual_knotting
1 mutual_mastrubation (TYPO)
659 mutual_masturbation , wiki mutual_masturbation
8 mutual_oral
2 mutual_orgasm
76 mutual_penetration , wiki mutual_penetration
27 mutual_rimming
1 mutual_tailsex
2 mutual_titfuck
1 mutual_tying

( Wiki handjob says "hands, paws, hooves, etc.", but is unclear what that "etc" includes. Includes tentaclejob ??)

Plain mutual tag with 20 posts, but NO wiki (ie. not defined),
alias mutual -> mutual_(disambiguation) ??