What if we had tag group for lore? (Just to be sure, species is a tag group?) If male or female is in the lore tags, they won't show in a search result if you search of the tags. For those preferring knowledge to trump visuals, there could be a setting for lore tags to override regular tags in your account settings.

Not possible. You can't have tags in more than one category, and the tag categories are globally unique, you can't have female in in general on one post, and then in "lore" on the next.

You also can't ignore specific tags based on their category.

That's too bad. What about a site feature that made this effect possible?

What if the lore tag is lore:female for example? If that is not possible, you could change the word slightly such as lore:lfemale

Sorrowless said:
That's too bad. What about a site feature that made this effect possible?

What if the lore tag is lore:female for example? If that is not possible, you could change the word slightly such as lore:lfemale

The lore: command wouldnt work as it would overlap

GDelscribe said:
The lore: command wouldnt work as it would overlap

Overlap? I don't understand. Are you talking about the override suggestion I made? Ignore that.

Sorrowless said:
What if the lore tag is lore:female for example? If that is not possible, you could change the word slightly such as lore:lfemale

That is how tag categories work at the moment, and the reason why it wouldn't work in the first place. Something like "lfemale" on the other hand would cause a lot of strange tag bloat.

NotMeNotYou said:
That is how tag categories work at the moment, and the reason why it wouldn't work in the first place. Something like "lfemale" on the other hand would cause a lot of strange tag bloat.

Maybe a different symbol?

Sorrowless said:
Maybe a different symbol?

The lfemale tag in and of itself wouldn't work. After all who would know thats not just a simple typo?

A tag like lore_female or more apropriately female_(lore) would be better overall however.

Its not so much an issue that tagwhatyouknow doesn't work, its that tagwhatyousee is partly incompatible with it without leading to difficulties with the blacklist.

I may push hyperbole more often than not to make a point but what works is what works. Tagwhatyousee as we have it is still borked to hell and back and needs work OR we need to find a way to seamlessly integrate twyk harmlessly.

So I do like what you're attempting I just. Dunno if its the best way to handle it.

GDelscribe said:
The lfemale tag in and of itself wouldn't work. After all who would know thats not just a simple typo?

A tag like lore_female or more apropriately female_(lore) would be better overall however.

Its not so much an issue that tagwhatyouknow doesn't work, its that tagwhatyousee is partly incompatible with it without leading to difficulties with the blacklist.

I may push hyperbole more often than not to make a point but what works is what works. Tagwhatyousee as we have it is still borked to hell and back and needs work OR we need to find a way to seamlessly integrate twyk harmlessly.

So I do like what you're attempting I just. Dunno if its the best way to handle it.

I respect that. However I see that it would solve everything.

Sorrowless said:
I respect that. However I see that it would solve everything.

Every problem solved by TWYK introduces new issues with the system.

That said there are certain ways they can coexist, but having them coexist would cause possibly double the problems.

If you really want to propose a way to make them work together it has to be something that accounts for the inherent flaws of the TWYK system, such as the fact that any TWYK or Lore tag would have to be verified by any tagger setting tags, that its a nightmare for blacklisting and searches etc etc.

While I do agree CERTAIN tags should be allowed. Most of TWYK is harder to deal with than what we have, even if the current system is rife with flaws.

I agree that there are issues with TWYK: How do you know a character is going off their canon gender, instead of the artist thinking of them as another? Sure, we could get crossgender_(lore) tags to go alongside with them, but then do we tag the canon _(lore) gender or the one that the artist wants? By doing things purely What You See, we can avoid arguments over that sort of thing.

My personally favorite solution for the TWYS and TWYK debate would be a complete overhaul of the tagging database, and the introduction of a new, unrelated tag database.

The main database would be the TWYS one and stays exactly the same as it currently is, the new database would be for TWYK tags and compliments the main DB.
The userbase would then be able to either turn the usage of the TWYK DB on or off at will (for example through a setting on the accounts page), or by using an operator in the search field.
Also a full overhaul of the search engine that it allows much finer search control and can actually handle two databases as need be.

This solution, while the most complex on the developer's side would solve almost all issues without affecting anything else. People can opt in or out of using TWYK freely and on the fly, those tags don't affect TWYS at all, and can just as easily be added or removed to and from submissions by everyone.

Alas, that would pretty much require we completely rework the two largest features on the page, so I doubt we would be able to implement this any time soon.

But I can dream.

GDelscribe said:
Every problem solved by TWYK introduces new issues with the system.

That said there are certain ways they can coexist, but having them coexist would cause possibly double the problems.

If you really want to propose a way to make them work together it has to be something that accounts for the inherent flaws of the TWYK system, such as the fact that any TWYK or Lore tag would have to be verified by any tagger setting tags, that its a nightmare for blacklisting and searches etc etc.

There would probably be some arguments and discussion for lore tags, but I don't see why they can't come to an agreement. Lore is backed by 'facts' while visual tags can be prone to error and misunderstanding.
I can see that using lore tags with searches and blacklists can be problematic with regular tags. However, it can be discouraged to use them in combination.
It will also end angry comments as people can confirm what they know by looking over the lore tags.

NotMeNotYou said:
My personally favorite solution for the TWYS and TWYK debate would be a complete overhaul of the tagging database, and the introduction of a new, unrelated tag database.

The main database would be the TWYS one and stays exactly the same as it currently is, the new database would be for TWYK tags and compliments the main DB.
The userbase would then be able to either turn the usage of the TWYK DB on or off at will (for example through a setting on the accounts page), or by using an operator in the search field.
Also a full overhaul of the search engine that it allows much finer search control and can actually handle two databases as need be.

This solution, while the most complex on the developer's side would solve almost all issues without affecting anything else. People can opt in or out of using TWYK freely and on the fly, those tags don't affect TWYS at all, and can just as easily be added or removed to and from submissions by everyone.

Alas, that would pretty much require we completely rework the two largest features on the page, so I doubt we would be able to implement this any time soon.

But I can dream.

To be truthful I'd love something like that, If I was better at css and html I'd definitely spend time dedicated to such an endeavour but right now I'll just have to hope.

Sorrowless said:
There would probably be some arguments and discussion for lore tags, but I don't see why they can't come to an agreement. Lore is backed by 'facts' while visual tags can be prone to error and misunderstanding.
I can see that using lore tags with searches and blacklists can be problematic with regular tags. However, it can be discouraged to use them in combination.
It will also end angry comments as people can confirm what they know by looking over the lore tags.

Lore may be backed by facts but how do you VERIFY those facts? Those facts can be subjective.
Visual tags are no less perfect but they are easier to verify 90% of the time.

GDelscribe said:
Lore may be backed by facts but how do you VERIFY those facts? Those facts can be subjective.
Visual tags are no less perfect but they are easier to verify 90% of the time.

True. As with Mikhaila there is the popular opinion of her being a flat chested female. It is however not backed by the author.

NotMeNotYou said:
My personally favorite solution for the TWYS and TWYK debate would be a complete overhaul of the tagging database, and the introduction of a new, unrelated tag database.

The main database would be the TWYS one and stays exactly the same as it currently is, the new database would be for TWYK tags and compliments the main DB.
The userbase would then be able to either turn the usage of the TWYK DB on or off at will (for example through a setting on the accounts page), or by using an operator in the search field.
Also a full overhaul of the search engine that it allows much finer search control and can actually handle two databases as need be.

This solution, while the most complex on the developer's side would solve almost all issues without affecting anything else. People can opt in or out of using TWYK freely and on the fly, those tags don't affect TWYS at all, and can just as easily be added or removed to and from submissions by everyone.

Alas, that would pretty much require we completely rework the two largest features on the page, so I doubt we would be able to implement this any time soon.

But I can dream.

I wonder sometimes if it would be worth making a secondary site, without copying over the old posts, but copying over wikis and stuff, to start fresh with what images we have so that they get tagged by the more modern tags. I'd be pretty surprised if Dragonfruit went with that, though.

Furrin_Gok said:
I wonder sometimes if it would be worth making a secondary site, without copying over the old posts, but copying over wikis and stuff, to start fresh with what images we have so that they get tagged by the more modern tags. I'd be pretty surprised if Dragonfruit went with that, though.

That'd be almost 10 years of man power down the drain. At this point we're better off waiting for neural networks to advance and then at some point employ our own for tagging.