For a while Pokemon were tagged simply as their Pokemon species name and not compared with an animal species due to clutter and general arguments. But now it seems someone has changed that as Pikachu is once again coupled with "Mouse". Is this a mistake or are the Pokemon once again supposed to have a real species applied to them.

Would you tag the post with mouse if Pokemon didn't exist? That's the litmus test people should be using. Pikachu can be a human, mouse, or even dragon.

Really, pokemon should be character tags, not species tags.

Beanjam said:
Would you tag the post with mouse if Pokemon didn't exist? That's the litmus test people should be using. Pikachu can be a human, mouse, or even dragon.

Really, pokemon should be character tags, not species tags.

I never tag pikachu with mouse. I do tag it with rodent.

Pokemon shouldn't be tagged with other animals that share the same traits, no matter how similar they look. But they can be tagged with their species tag group.

Circeus said:
I never tag pikachu with mouse. I do tag it with rodent.

Yeah, like that.

(Unless the pokemon has been drawn as that other animal instead of it's normal form...)

Beanjam said:
Really, pokemon should be character tags, not species tags.

This is something that's been brought up a number of times, but pokemon names are also (as a rule) their species. The ruling has been that it'd be unnecessary spamming to have every image with a pokemon tagged twice, ie Pikachu_(character) Pikachu_(species). Especially in those images that have tens/hundreds of different ones depicted.

Circeus said:
I never tag pikachu with mouse. I do tag it with rodent.

Exactly! But when I go in and type "Pokemon Mouse" into the search bar, sure enough 45 pages worth of pikachu (at least 45 pages) are tagged "Mouse" again. I think someone went in and added it all

Wodahseht said:
Pokemon shouldn't be tagged with other animals that share the same traits, no matter how similar they look. But they can be tagged with their species tag group.

Which is what I believed would be the case

Should I start going through and correcting this on the posts?

Rorrick said:
I think someone went in and added it all

This does indeed appear the case. Randomly selecting 12 images from 34 pages of results for pokemon mouse gave 11 which had been given the mouse tag on the 21st by GameManiac.

Rorrick said:
Should I start going through and correcting this on the posts?

I don't keep up as much on Pokemon tagging, so I'd prefer waiting for an admin to re-verify that mouse tag shouldn't be there. In which case, it might be easier to fix with a quick script.

Wodahseht said:
This does indeed appear the case. Randomly selecting 12 images from 34 pages of results for pokemon mouse gave 11 which had been given the mouse tag on the 21st by GameManiac.

I don't keep up as much on Pokemon tagging, so I'd prefer waiting for an admin to re-verify that mouse tag shouldn't be there. In which case, it might be easier to fix with a quick script.

Wow that's really rude!

Okay I'll be patient and wait for an admin...

imo literally the only times when pikachu should get mouse tag is when its one of those "realistic pokemon" drawings where pikachu is drawn to look like a mouse. also in some cases the rodent tag could be bad too (like for example pictures that portray pikachu for example with the definitely not rodent-like teeth it has in pokemon anime)

Mutisija said:
imo literally the only times when pikachu should get mouse tag is when its one of those "realistic pokemon" drawings where pikachu is drawn to look like a mouse. also in some cases the rodent tag could be bad too (like for example pictures that portray pikachu for example with the definitely not rodent-like teeth it has in pokemon anime)

I believe that's what the general consensus has been. But we just need to wait for someone with higher admin powers to make note of it and perhaps fix it.

Mutisija said:
imo literally the only times when pikachu should get mouse tag is when its one of those "realistic pokemon" drawings where pikachu is drawn to look like a mouse. also in some cases the rodent tag could be bad too (like for example pictures that portray pikachu for example with the definitely not rodent-like teeth it has in pokemon anime)

It's not like anyone has a problem with mickey mouse or other characters being approximated as a mouse. Hell, you can extend that to other cartoon animals such as the "horses" in mlp. The only reason people get their panties in a bunch over pokemon is because we use species tags for them.

And really? You'd make people sort through pikashamblers to get what they want because of inaccurate portrayal of teeth?

post #19700

Beanjam said:
It's not like anyone has a problem with mickey mouse or other characters being approximated as a mouse. Hell, you can extend that to other cartoon animals such as the "horses" in mlp. The only reason people get their panties in a bunch over pokemon is because we use species tags for them.

And really? You'd make people sort through pikashamblers to get what they want because of inaccurate portrayal of teeth?

post #19700

Using the species for Pokemon instead of the real animal species helps avoid weird tagging such as this post #249803

It is tagged as both a pony and a mouse simply because Pikachu is the creature it is based off of despite displaying no qualities of what we know as a mouse. It was a rule made a while back. I also feel I should agree with you on the MLP tag using "horse" as well, "equine" or "pony" would probably be enough unless the character was drawn in a specific way to be undoubtedly a horse.

Rorrick said:
I also feel I should agree with you on the MLP tag using "horse" as well, "equine" or "pony" would probably be enough unless the character was drawn in a specific way to be undoubtedly a horse.

We're moving off the topic, but the only reason MLP ponies are tagged horse is because pony implies horse. pegasus, unicorn, and winged_unicorn only imply equine/mammal

Rorrick said:
Using the species for Pokemon instead of the real animal species helps avoid weird tagging such as this post #249803

It is tagged as both a pony and a mouse simply because Pikachu is the creature it is based off of despite displaying no qualities of what we know as a mouse. It was a rule made a while back. I also feel I should agree with you on the MLP tag using "horse" as well, "equine" or "pony" would probably be enough unless the character was drawn in a specific way to be undoubtedly a horse.

No, look, you're trying to turn this into some sort of weird forced dichotomy of Pikachu always being a mouse or Pikachu never being a mouse. That example you have there is just bad tagging. No one would look at that and say that that looked anything like a mouse, not even a cartoon mouse.

Wodahseht said:
We're moving off the topic, but the only reason MLP ponies are tagged horse is because pony implies horse. pegasus, unicorn, and winged_unicorn only imply equine/mammal

I agree it is off topic, I'll switch gears back to the Pikachu thing.

Beanjam said:
No, look, you're trying to turn this into some sort of weird forced dichotomy of Pikachu always being a mouse or Pikachu never being a mouse. That example you have there is just bad tagging. No one would look at that and say that that looked anything like a mouse, not even a cartoon mouse.

But that is the thing, someone went through and changed ALL of the posts tagged with Pikachu to say "mouse" despite it being ruled that the pokemon is it's own species. This is not a new topic, this has happened before which is why that ruling was made in the first place a long while back.

Rorrick said:
For a while Pokemon were tagged simply as their Pokemon species name and not compared with an animal species due to clutter and general arguments. But now it seems someone has changed that as Pikachu is once again coupled with "Mouse". Is this a mistake or are the Pokemon once again supposed to have a real species applied to them.

Just so you know, I'M the one that edited those tags. And if need be, I'd be more than happy to change that if told to do so by the higher-ups.

Hard to say for certain if it is a problem or not. I just see it as a way of clarifying a section of e621 that could use some clarifying (especially for those that blacklist). After all, Pikachu is known as the "Electric Mouse" Pokémon, and most Pokémon are based off of real life animals, be they mythical, physical, or extinct.

Also, most of the Pokémon species tags only have their particular species as the tag, but not anything more generalized. For example, Pokémon such as Vulpix and Ninetales are clearly canine-like and should at least have the canine tag set where necessary (not as an implication because there are humanized Pokémon).

If need be, this is something that I'd be willing to balance out in the wiki for the 721 different (and current) Pokémon species. I was already doing so for a while, and should get back to.

Rorrick said:
But that is the thing, someone went through and changed ALL of the posts tagged with Pikachu to say "mouse" despite it being ruled that the pokemon is it's own species. This is not a new topic, this has happened before which is why that ruling was made in the first place a long while back.

I wish I didn't believe you, but I do. Tagging should be based on logic and searching, not trying to prevent bad tagging.

Regardless, it should probably be reconsidered now that we know the reason it was made in the first place doesn't apply.

GameManiac said:
Just so you know, I'M the one that edited those tags. And if need be, I'd be more than happy to change that if told to do so by the higher-ups.

Yeah, we saw that it was you who changed it. After learning about the Pokemon as species changes I've been trying to keep it organized by removing such tags as "mouse" and others as I saw them pop up for months, which is why it was a shock to me to see them ALL put back after keeping it maintained for so long. I too am waiting for an admin's word on this situation.

Species are defined scientifically so Pokemon should be tagged as what they are, as Pikachu or as Ninetails, whatever. Because Pokemon don't actually exist i don't think we should tag them as canine or rodent because in order to categorize them we would have to study them, and i don't think Nintendo has released any documents on the specifications of all 800 odd Pokemon.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

I have no real problem with tagging species orders, but agree that going down to species families (or even lower) is a bit much in most Pokémon cases.

GameManiac said:
Hard to say for certain if it is a problem or not. I just see it as a way of clarifying a section of e621 that could use some clarifying (especially for those that blacklist). After all, Pikachu is known as the "Electric Mouse" Pokémon, and most Pokémon are based off of real life animals, be they mythical, physical, or extinct.

If one doesn't like Pickachu, it's much easier to use pikachu for blacklisting, not something obscure like pikachu mouse. Pikachu most often just barely resemble a mouse in such a way that someone who doesn't like mice would still maybe be able to enjoy pikachu and blacklist maybe pickachu mouse to catch those few cases where pikachus actually looks like a mouse. It may be described in the series as an electric mouse but that is essentially the same thing as I would show you a banana and say that it's an apple, it doesn't change the fact that it is seen as a banana. Remember we're supposed to tag what we see not what we know.

Eden_Raccoon said:
Species are defined scientifically so Pokemon should be tagged as what they are, as Pikachu or as Ninetails, whatever. Because Pokemon don't actually exist i don't think we should tag them as canine or rodent because in order to categorize them we would have to study them, and i don't think Nintendo has released any documents on the specifications of all 800 odd Pokemon.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

Almost all (and I really mean almost all) posts here would not pass a real scientific inspection to determine species. That said we have to use real life classification since we live in the real world. However there has to be some leeway regarding the fact that we classify fantasy creatures. Hence we have to tag something only if it is easily comparable to a real life object. Pikachu would be more comparable to a yellow sack of flour with a face than a mouse. Or maybe not...

Chessax said:
If one doesn't like Pickachu, it's much easier to use pikachu for blacklisting, not something obscure like pikachu mouse. Pikachu most often just barely resemble a mouse in such a way that someone who doesn't like mice would still maybe be able to enjoy pikachu and blacklist maybe pickachu mouse to catch those few cases where pikachus actually looks like a mouse. It may be described in the series as an electric mouse but that is essentially the same thing as I would show you a banana and say that it's an apple, it doesn't change the fact that it is seen as a banana. Remember we're supposed to tag what we see not what we know.

Perhaps Pokémon could follow the same road that MLP has in regards to tagging species. For MLP, if they're tagged winged_unicorn, unicorn, and/or Pegasus, then they don't require being tagged as a pony (unless it's earth_pony) or horse.

Would rodent simply suffice for Pikachu, or mammal, or neither?

That's how it is for all species. One top-level species tag per creature, unless it's a hybrid (or in mid-transformation).

When you see that pokemon, is your first thought "that's a Pikachu" or "that's a mouse"? If it's "that's a Pikachu", you shouldn't be tagging it as a mouse.

Just because it resembles something, doesn't mean that it's of that species. Especially when it already has a valid species tag. Tagging pokemon as real animals is no different from tagging sergals as wolves or sharks.

GameManiac said:
After all, Pikachu is known as the "Electric Mouse" Pokémon, and most Pokémon are based off of real life animals, be they mythical, physical, or extinct.

Also, again, that is outside information. Which you're supposed to ignore when tagging.

Yeah, tagging Pikachu as rodent, or vulpix as canine (or canid? I can never remember) is okay, but please don't tag Pikachus as mouses or vulpixes as foxes because that just causes issues when trying to find "real" mouses and foxes without getting pokémon.

NotMeNotYou said:
Yeah, tagging Pikachu as rodent, or Vulpix as canine (or canid? I can never remember) is okay, but please don't tag Pikachus as mice or Vulpixes as foxes because that just causes issues when trying to find "real" mice and foxes without getting Pokemon.

Eden_Raccoon said:

That was before coffee.
I do not accept responsibility for anything that happens before I replace ~50% of my blood with pure caffeine.

NotMeNotYou said:
Yeah, tagging Pikachu as rodent, or vulpix as canine (or canid? I can never remember) is okay, but please don't tag Pikachus as mouses or vulpixes as foxes because that just causes issues when trying to find "real" mouses and foxes without getting pokémon.

That's precisely what I thought you (or any other admin) would say: tag it vague but not specific.

That answers my question, and I'll remove mouse from Pikachu right now.

NotMeNotYou said:
Yeah, tagging Pikachu as rodent, or vulpix as canine (or canid? I can never remember) is okay, but please don't tag Pikachus as mouses or vulpixes as foxes because that just causes issues when trying to find "real" mouses and foxes without getting pokémon.

mouse -pokemon ?

fox -pokemon ?

Calcoast said:
mouse -pokemon ?

fox -pokemon ?

someone who types "mouse" in search bar is not looking for pikachus. the main priority of tags is to make searching wanted content easier, not to make the tag bar look a bit fuller just because some tags technically fit there.

Calcoast said:
mouse -pokemon ?

fox -pokemon ?

Currently, searching for mouse finds mice.
Searching for pikachu finds pikachus.
And searching for rodent finds both.

Simple and efficient.
In theory, it also allows users to search for posts that feature e.g. both mice and pikachu (mouse pikachu). But that only works if the species aren't overtagged.

GameManiac said:
That answers my question, and I'll remove mouse from Pikachu right now.

Mutisija said:
someone who types "mouse" in search bar is not looking for pikachus. the main priority of tags is to make searching wanted content easier, not to make the tag bar look a bit fuller just because some tags technically fit there.

Genjar said:
Currently, searching for mouse finds mice.
Searching for pikachu finds pikachus.
And searching for rodent finds both.

Simple and efficient.
In theory, it also allows users to search for posts that feature e.g. both mice and pikachu (mouse pikachu). But that only works if the species aren't overtagged.

Phew... Done... Good thing my laptop has a multi-touch LCD screen.

GameManiac said:
Phew... Done... Good thing my laptop has a multi-touch LCD screen.

Um. You also untagged it from everything that had actual mice in them, such as crossovers. Those should've been kept.

I'll fix the ones that I remember offhand, but I'm pretty sure that there were more.

Genjar said:
Um. You also untagged it from everything that had actual mice in them, such as crossovers. Those should've been kept.

I'll fix the ones that I remember offhand, but I'm pretty sure that there were more.

I'll look it over in the morning. But off of the top of my head, I don't think there were that many to begin with.