There are, I think, some issues with the tribadism and frottage tags. As it stands, tribadism on e621 refers only to genital-to-genital contact, but in other contexts, the term is more general, referring to rubbing the clitoris / vagina against any part of the partner's body, not just another vagina. Likewise, does not always imply penis-to-penis contact in other contexts, but refers more generally to sexual rubbing of one's body against a partner (of which tribadism would be a specific example).

These definitions of tribadism and frottage have the side-effect of there being no word to describe obvious acts of sexual rubbing, but which are not penetrative, and the two words that would usually describe it (frottage or tribadism) have each already been given more specific meanings.

An example of the problems with this can be seen with the tags tail_sex and its implication of penetration.

There are types of sex involving tails that do not also involve penetration (and are often tagged with "tail_sex", which then gives them the incorrect "penetration" tag as well.

Example:

https://e621.net/post/show/524326/2014-animal_genitalia-anthro-bdsm-bondage-bound-br

This is a sort of sexual rubbing - a sort of frottage, or more specifically, tribadism, but not as the words are defined on e621. The tail_sex and penetration tags could be removed, but then there is no way to search for similar images.

A solution that could work for tail_sex specifically could be to create a new tag (tail_penetration, perhaps), which would be a subset of the larger tag of tail_sex. The tag tail_penetration would, naturally, imply penetration and tail_sex.

Though that is a rather specific fix for a more general problem. There still would be no way to tag other sorts of non genital-to-genital tribadism or frottage.

The best solution I can think of would be to change the images currently tagged with "frottage" as "penis_against_penis" or something along those lines, and current images of tribadism as "pussy_against_pussy", and then change frottage and tribadism to their more general definitions (or perhaps, tribadism for female frottage, frottage for male frottage).

Though either way I think the tail_sex tag needs some fixing.

Sorry for the long post. Just trying to be clear and helpful.

I won't comment on the frottage and tribadism at the moment, but +1 to using a tag like tail_penetration. We could even chain it like this:

• tail_sex
• tail_penetration

The only thing I'm partially concerned about is the penetration tags usually go by [name of orifice]_penetration, and that might be somewhat confusing.

Semi-related: It's worth mentioning that we do have tailjob, an equivalent for pussy might be nice to have.

It could always be rephrased "penetrated/penetration_with_tail", but that's a bit wordy. "Tail_insertion" might work, but seems less intuitive. I saw someone use the tag "tail_fucking", but I think that is somewhat ambiguous and doesn't really distinguish the two. There really aren't many good options outside of "tail_penetration", are there?

Thank you for the quick response, on that issue.

I think, if I remember right, the tribadism and frottage issue has been brought up before, but it still seems problematic to me, and it was related to the tail_sex issue, so I felt like explaining my thoughts anyway.

While we're on the subject, what the hell tag do you use for penis-vagina rubbing? tribadism seems to be exclusively lesbian, and any time I've ever tried using frottage someone just removes it because it's penis-penis only. I know there's hotdogging but that seems to be a specific subset of it.

TonyLemur said:
While we're on the subject, what the hell tag do you use for penis-vagina rubbing? tribadism seems to be exclusively lesbian, and any time I've ever tried using frottage someone just removes it because it's penis-penis only. I know there's hotdogging but that seems to be a specific subset of it.

Grinding? Although that seems a bit ambiguous...

Well, if we were going by the ideas from my first post, and thus had "penis against penis" and "pussy against pussy", it seems like "penis against pussy" would be the logical choice.

parasprite said:
I won't comment on the frottage and tribadism at the moment, but +1 to using a tag like tail_penetration. We could even chain it like this:

• tail_sex
• tail_penetration

_penetration has been used as [hole]_penetration only so far... penetrating_tail may be better&

I don't agree with tail_penetration. That is because the word penetration is reserved for something being penetrated, not penetrating with a something.

penetrating_tail is pretty much the same thing. If you read penetrating_vagina what would you think? Of course you would think the same thing as vaginal_penetration. It's just that one uses a noun and other.. an adjective.

tail_sex is also an exception as there exists no other something_sex tags where "something" would be a body part.

However, we do have fisting which indicates penetration using a fist. So perhaps the term we're looking for is.. tailing? lol no, that's just wrong.

Btw, one solution to the tail_sex problem (tail_penetrating_something) would be Generic tags where you could simply use body_part_in_body_part generic tag to tag tail_in_body_part for penetration or tail_on_body_part for rubbing.

Anyway, back on topic.
First of all, in my opinion, the implication tail_sex -> penetration needs to be removed and the tag description corrected to include rubbing oneself or another character with the tail. The penetration is not mandatory. The tag sex doesn't imply penetration and vice versa.

These definitions of tribadism and frottage have the side-effect of there being no word to describe obvious acts of sexual rubbing, but which are not penetrative, and the two words that would usually describe it (frottage or tribadism) have each already been given more specific meanings.

If I understand correctly, you're looking for non-penetrative sexual interaction between two characters. Well, that's simple. You search for "sex -penetration"

A solution that could work for tail_sex specifically could be to create a new tag (tail_penetration, perhaps), which would be a subset of the larger tag of tail_sex. The tag tail_penetration would, naturally, imply penetration and tail_sex.

I think a better solution is to simply change tail_sex to work for both penetration and rubbing.

but then there is no way to search for similar images.

How about searching for "tail_sex sex" and "tail_sex sex -penetration"?

Though that is a rather specific fix for a more general problem. There still would be no way to tag other sorts of non genital-to-genital tribadism or frottage.

So what you're looking for is a single word tag, which implies both rubbing and sex. Hmm. That's a tough one.
You see, despite being named tail_sex, the tag does not imply sex. Because it does not necesarrily invole a second character. The big problem here is that it's hard to imply sex due to the fact that we can't specify to which character a body part belongs to. And sex is only tagged when there's two characters sexually interacting. Even if we have penis_in_vagina, we can't imply sex because it could be a self-penetrating herm. So! This problem cannot be solved due to tagging system limitations. The system does not support defining and seaching for "interactions" between characters. Or defining characters at all. The fact that we have sex (sexual interaction between two characters) at all is a miracle. Or maybe it's an exception which needs to be removed? It seems to be causing a lot of problems :D hm hm?

The best solution I can think of would be to change the images currently tagged with "frottage" as "penis_against_penis" or something along those lines, and current images of tribadism as "pussy_against_pussy", and then change frottage and tribadism to their more general definitions (or perhaps, tribadism for female frottage, frottage for male frottage).

As for tribadism and frottage goes, these are obviously higher concepts which do not follow the "tag what you see" principle, and which can easily be dumbed down to cock_on_cock + sex and pussy_on_pussy + sex.

Except e621 does not currently support generic tags as you are describing them.

I realize that you are in favor of creating generic tags, but you have a thread dedicated to that. Yes, I can see the advantages of generic tags, but honestly this feels a bit like you're trying to turn this thread into another discussion of your idea. Which bothers me.

Fine. I edited out the last bit. Does my answer to your problem suffice now?

Despite the inconsistencies, I think tail_insertion might be better than tail_penetration if we were to use either tag. The insertion tags aren't really used as often anyways, so we have a little bit more wiggle room. In fact, it might be nice this way because we could imply things like tailjob, and leave autotailjob for the masturbation part. Just a thought.

Either way, if nothing else comes from this, we should at least remove the implication to penetration. It's been shown that limiting the definition isn't working because we don't have replacement tags. Even if we can't come up with replacement tags for "putting tail into an orifice" and "rubbing tail against orifice", we can at least work with a more general tag in the meantime.

---

As for the tribadism/frottage tags, I am for renaming them personally because they aren't that helpful by themselves.

Forgive me if this is a crazy idea, but how about this?

• frottage
• pussy_frottage <-alias/imply- tribadism
• penis_frottage <-temp alias- frottage (to clean tag out)

Tail_frottage might be worth considering as well, even if it is kind of rare. If we wanted to get more complex with it, we might even be able to do something like this:

• frottage
• penis_frottage?
• penis/penis_frottage - replacement for (current) frottage tag
• pussy_frottage?
• pussy/pussy_frottage - replacement for tribadism tag
• penis_frottage, pussy_frottage?
• penis/pussy_frottage - For those handful of "pussy grinding against penis" posts you see once in a while

Then again, I think I've only tagged frottage one or two times, and never tagged tribadism, so this may not work well in practice.

If I understand correctly, you're looking for non-penetrative sexual interaction between two characters. Well, that's simple. You search for "sex -penetration"

Not exactly. Tribadism and frottage are a specific type of non-penetrative sex. (sex -penetration) would give you various types of oral (penis licking, cunnilingus, rimming), handjobs, breast-sex, and then the various forms of frottage. To search for them by exclusion would require (sex -penetration -handjob -titfuck -oral), and even then you would be left with all forms of frottage, so if you wanted to search specifically for tribadism, you are out of luck.

Furthermore, searching by exclusion like that would necessarily exclude all images which include some form of frottage in addition to other forms of sex. So, for example, if one character was engaging in tribadism (what you wanted to search for), but another character was being penetrated, your search would exclude that image despite it being one of the images you are trying to search for.

I think a better solution is to simply change tail_sex to work for both penetration and rubbing.

Then we no longer have a tag which describes the act of a character being penetrated by a tail, which is something that people might want to search.

So what you're looking for is a single word tag, which implies both rubbing and sex. Hmm. That's a tough one.

I'm advocating that there is a tag which describes the act of rubbing oneself against one's partner. That act is usually referred to as frottage and tribadism outside of e621.

As for tribadism and frottage goes, these are obviously higher concepts which do not follow the "tag what you see" principle, and which can easily be dumbed down to cock_on_cock + sex and pussy_on_pussy + sex.

I think you are missing the point I am trying to make. I am arguing that tribadism and frottage be given their more general definitions, which includes many more acts than penis-penis or pussy-pussy rubbing, and that pussy_against_pussy and penis_against_penis be created to act as tribadism and frottage are currently being used. In other words, what you are proposing as a "fix" to the problem is essentially how things currently work, which is what I have a problem with.

Sorry for complicating this further, but there's also the horn_sex tag. Which is similar to tail_sex, but with horns: tagged when a horn is used to penetrate an another character. So if tail_sex is to be renamed, horn_sex should be changed at the same time.

Tail_penetration and tail_insertion seems like a bad idea to me. Like mentioned, those just aren't consistent with the other *_penetration/*_insertion tags.

parasprite said:
Despite the inconsistencies, I think tail_insertion might be better than tail_penetration if we were to use either tag.

Seems reasonable to me. Everything that has been suggested (except "tailing") has had some inconsistencies.

You know, as weird as it sounds, perhaps "tailing" has some advantages, considering its already stated similarity to "fisting"? I don't know. No combination of words so far has been really that great, perhaps we need to create a word that works?

Either way, if nothing else comes from this, we should at least remove the implication to penetration.

Again, seems fine to me. I can certainly agree with both of those.

Forgive me if this is a crazy idea, but how about this?

• frottage
• pussy_frottage <-alias/imply- tribadism
• penis_frottage <-temp alias- frottage (to clean tag out)

Tail_frottage might be worth considering as well, even if it is kind of rare. If we wanted to get more complex with it, we might even be able to do something like this:

• frottage
• penis_frottage?
• penis/penis_frottage - replacement for (current) frottage tag
• pussy_frottage?
• pussy/pussy_frottage - replacement for tribadism tag
• penis_frottage, pussy_frottage?
• penis/pussy_frottage - For those handful of "pussy grinding against penis" posts you see once in a while

Hm. That could work, I think. So penis/pussy_frottage would imply both pussy_frottage and penis_frottage, which would each imply frottage? That seems like a very reasonable solution.

And then separate from that:

• Tail_Sex
• Tail_Insertion

Where Tail_Insertion implies Tail_Sex and Penetration?

I, personally, think this all would be a very appropriate solution.

Again, I can't agree with tail_penetration and tail_insertion because *_penetration tags are used when the defined body part is being penetrated / inserted into. And *_insertion is being used when the defined body part is being penetrated by sex_toys. It would cause confusion with the other tags. Users might even start thinking that other tags can be used in the same way and you would get penis_penetration and vaginal_penetration in the same image. This seems to be an old problem and it looks like tail_penetration used to exist until it was aliased to tail_sex for consistency.

I know, I'm not really providing any solutions but, sometimes it's better to have no solution than to cause inconsistency and confusion. Let me think.

tail.. tail.. rubbing? We have rub and rubbing tags that seem to be under the weather. So maybe we can use it like:

tail_rubbing implies tail_sex, but is used only when there's no penetration.

Similarily we could use penis_rubbing and vagina_rubbing when the body parts are being sexually interacted with, but not being penetrated.

I really don't like the frottage and tribadism tags and the combinations. The terms are too obscure and it's very unlikely they would get tagged.

btw, outside e621 tribadism means.. vagina_rubbing + female/female. It does not mean vagina_against_vagina as rubbing pussy against legs or any other body parts is valid for tribadism.

I really don't like the frottage and tribadism tags and the combinations. The terms are too obscure and it's very unlikely they would get tagged.

Well, I mean, it's not like I hear the term disembodied penis very frequently in my day to day life, but because it was used, people noticed it and began tagging it more frequently. The term "scissoring" (which aliases to tribadism now, and should probably alias to pussy/pussy_frottage if this change is made) is actually fairly common by comparison.

And besides. The terms "frottage" and "tribadism" are, let me remind you, the terms currently being used. Just with incorrect and overly specific definitions. So saying you don't like the terms is more of an indictment of the current system than the proposed system, no?

btw, outside e621 tribadism means.. vagina_rubbing + female/female. It does not mean vagina_against_vagina as rubbing pussy against legs or any other body parts is valid for tribadism.

I know. That's what I've been saying since the beginning. Though it doesn't always mean female/female. It is just most common in that context.

Don't take this the wrong way, but have you considered the possibility that you might have misunderstood what I've been proposing? I can't think of any other reason why you'd restate my original point to me as if you were providing new information.

I'm not trying to be rude. It just seems like that might be the case.

Indeed, I am a bit confused since you're talking about 4 subjects at the same time and you weren't clearly specifying what was wrong and what you were proposing. The restatement was the result of this confusion. Also, quite a bit of time has passed and I didn't re-read OP :P

So, let me make the following statements:

• I agree that there's a problem with tribadism. Its meaning should be made wider. To include any body part touching vagina.
• I agree that there's a problem with frottage. Its meaning should be made wider. However, only to include any body part touching penis or vagina (that's the definition of the word).
• I agree that there's no tag for "any boy part sexually rubbing any body part". I propose rubbing be used for this case and *_rubbing where * is a body part that's rubbing or being sexually rubbed.
• I agree that there's a problem with tail_sex. It should not imply penetration. However, this is unrelated to frottage/tribadism.
• I do not agree with tail_penetration/tail_insertion, because of inconsistency with *_penetration and *_insertion tags.
• I do not agree with separating frottage into pussy_frottage and penis_frottage, because of reduncancy. Instead, pussy_rubbing and penis_rubbing should be used.
• I propose tribadism to imply pussy_rubbing
• I propose tribadism to imply female/female
• I propose tribadism to imply frottage
• I propose frottage to imply rubbing

Delian said:

• I propose pussy_rubbing to imply pussy
• I propose penis_rubbing to imply penis

I wanted to mention something here. Currently the frottage tag implies penis but the tribadism tag does not imply pussy. I am assuming this was done intentionally because it's easy to come up with images that can imply tribadism is happening but don't show the actual pussy (the legs are covering all the right bits), but pretty hard to show frottage (as we define it) without at least one visible penis.

Oh, by the way. I'm going to go ahead and delete the tail_sex -> penetration implication because it's been shown that it is causing issues with certain posts that don't have any alternate tags that we can move them to. In the meantime, tail_sex is going to be used for all sex involving the tail since that is what it tends to be used for right now. I will revise the wiki slightly to reflect this.

Without adding any new tags into the mix (except for one) here is my current thoughts:

• sex
• tail_sex - Any sexual stimulation that involves the tail somehow.
• tailjob - Handjob, but with a tail.
• masturbation
• tail_masturbation - Masturbation involving the tail somehow.
• autotailjob - As a more specific form of tail masturbation, since it follows the format of the auto* tags its meaning is fairly intuitive.

The definitions are going to have to be handled fairly loosely until we have more specific tags to work with, but it seems like this should work well enough in the meantime.

parasprite said:
Without adding any new tags into the mix (except for one) here is my current thoughts:

• sex
• tail_sex - Any sexual stimulation that involves the tail somehow.
• tailjob - Handjob, but with a tail.
• masturbation
• tail_masturbation - Masturbation involving the tail somehow.
• autotailjob - As a more specific form of tail masturbation, since it follows the format of the auto* tags its meaning is fairly intuitive.

The definitions are going to have to be handled fairly loosely until we have more specific tags to work with, but it seems like this should work well enough in the meantime.

That seems fine. Tail sex occasionally gets tagged for masturbation, but I think that could be sorted out easily enough.. Just need to change the wiki and clean it up a bit.

Looking at it now, I do think that perhaps it would have been better to separate the tail-based section of this post into its own topic.

But either way, it seems like there are some fixes here that I think should do some good, so however it happened, I'm glad that I was able to help in some way and spark some useful tag discussion. I'm looking forward to seeing what may or may not happen with other issues.

Thanks everyone for putting up with my admittedly confusing mashing of these two topics, and for all the good discussion.

parasprite said:
but the tribadism tag does not imply pussy.

Hmm, you're right. When you have images like post #604869, we can't imply pussy. However, pussy_rubbing can, and should be implied. You need to have pussy_rubbing to have tribadism. So I think the implication of tribadism to pussy_rubbing is ok, but pussy_rubbing to pussy is not, and I will retract this proposal.

• sex
• tail_sex - Any sexual stimulation that involves the tail somehow.
• tailjob - Handjob, but with a tail.
• masturbation
• tail_masturbation - Masturbation involving the tail somehow.
• autotailjob - As a more specific form of tail masturbation, since it follows the format of the auto* tags its meaning is fairly intuitive.

Since tail_sex contains the word sex it would be logical that it would imply sex as well. I agree with these propositions, except for autotailjob. That one's a bit too obscure. There's no autohandjob.

Another problem I'd like to point out is the post #623326
It's the scissoring position but it was implicated to tribadism.

Made the following changes:

• Implication: tail_sex -> sex (approved)
• Implication: tailjob -> tail_sex (approved)
• Implication: tail_masturbation -> masturbation (approved)
• Implication: autotailjob -> tail_masturbation (approved) (as a masturbation analogue to tailjob)

Unrelated:

• Implication: multi_balls -> balls (now approved)
• Implication: multi_knot -> knot (now approved)

Well, for the penetrative part, there's always autopenetration in combination with tail_masturbation one can use, e.g.:
Penetrative masturbation: Posts: tail_masturbation autopenetration
Non penetrative masturbation: Posts: tail_masturbation -autopenetration
The problem is the second one, which has pictures with pre- and post-penetrative scenes, as well as the ones with "autotailjob". They are hardly perfect as they may fail on multi-image post or multiple characters.

There's also tail_in_mouth, which could be used?

Slightly related, does autofellatio only refer to the penis? Is it autofellatio if you suck on your tail? finger? knee?

What I really don't like (and why I'm replying) is that tail_penetration is an alias to tail_sex, with that thinking, penetration should be an alias to sex, any votes for that? tail_penetration should be used for when there is tail_pussy or similar (goo/gore?), and the current posts should be tagged with something else (as discussed), with what I do not know.

Chessax said:
Slightly related, does autofellatio only refer to the penis?

It should, for consistency. Fellatio is only tagged for penis, so autofellatio should be the same. Oral_insertion seems to work well enough for other things.

Chessax said:

What I really don't like (and why I'm replying) is that tail_penetration is an alias to tail_sex, with that thinking, penetration should be an alias to sex, any votes for that? tail_penetration should be used for when there is tail_pussy or similar (goo/gore?), and the current posts should be tagged with something else (as discussed), with what I do not know.

The difficulty with that particular tag is, lexically, it's a bit stuck stuck between "penetrating [something] with a tail" (ex. tail penetrating a pussy) and "penetrating the tail with [something]" (ex. penis into a tail pussy). The definition that most people would probably assume it means (tail penetrating a pussy) contradicts the normal use of the *_penetration tags, so either way we kind of set ourselves up for mistagging.

Unfortunately I don't think there's really one clear answer for this.

Genjar said:
It should, for consistency. Fellatio is only tagged for penis, so autofellatio should be the same. Oral_insertion seems to work well enough for other things.

I get what you mean, but then there's a contradiction between what you say about insertion and the wiki, which states that "[Insertion] does not include insertion of any body parts". If that is not the case I can honestly say I have mistagged more than a few insertion/penetration situations, though nothing too hard to fix.

parasprite said:
The difficulty with that particular tag is, lexically, it's a bit stuck stuck between "penetrating [something] with a tail" (ex. tail penetrating a pussy) and "penetrating the tail with [something]" (ex. penis into a tail pussy). The definition that most people would probably assume it means (tail penetrating a pussy) contradicts the normal use of the *_penetration tags, so either way we kind of set ourselves up for mistagging.

Unfortunately I don't think there's really one clear answer for this.

Well there's that problem, but what I was aiming for was more the problem that one can penetrate oneself with a tail = masturbation, that means some pictures probably get tagged with tail_sex and sex even though it might be a solo picture.

Chessax said:
I get what you mean, but then there's a contradiction between what you say about insertion and the wiki, which states that "[Insertion] does not include insertion of any body parts". If that is not the case I can honestly say I have mistagged more than a few insertion/penetration situations, though nothing too hard to fix.

Yeah, that should probably be changed a bit. At the time of writing that I wasn't aware that things like anal_vore end up implying insertion, which makes that a bit tricky. oral_penetration does exist, however. Edit: Also, I just approved autopenetration -> penetration in forum #143893, which might help us somewhat.

I'm not entirely convinced that making a distinction between insertion and penetration is actually necessary, but that's another story.

Well there's that problem, but what I was aiming for was more the problem that one can penetrate oneself with a tail = masturbation, that means some pictures probably get tagged with tail_sex and sex even though it might be a solo picture.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, I'd like to get that one moved sooner rather than later though if possible. However, we just don't have a better place to put tail_penetration at the moment (aliasing it to penetration might be better than tail_sex as a temporary solution, but even that doesn't seem quite right).

parasprite said:
Yeah, that should probably be changed a bit. At the time of writing that I wasn't aware that things like anal_vore end up implying insertion, which makes that a bit tricky. oral_penetration does exist, however.

I'm not entirely convinced that making a distinction between insertion and penetration is actually necessary, but that's another story.

Gah, I took @Genjar a little too seriously about using oral_insertion... I've been using *_insertion when suitable (e.g. dildo and so on) and only *_penetration otherwise. Guess the only nice thing about it is that you can do negative searches for *_insertion to only get living things doing each other, but I don't know...

parasprite said:
I'm not disagreeing with you here, I'd like to get that one moved sooner rather than later though if possible. However, we just don't have a better place to put tail_penetration at the moment (aliasing it to penetration might be better than tail_sex as a temporary solution, but even that doesn't seem quite right).

Ok, I got you on that. Unfortunately I don't think I got any brilliant ideas of what to do with that, at the moment...

I thought it was probably worth bumping this because though we got half of the issues solved (the tail issues), I don't think we got a clear resolution either way on the tribadism and frottage issues.

I made a placeholder for this in the implications so it doesn't get lost.