Discovered the tag ball grab today, which matches penis grab in formatting. Makes for a nice setup here: holding penis/holding balls penis grab/ball grab

Now ball grab isn't nearly as widely used as ball fondling, which is why I'm hesitant to propose this alias, but for the above matching in definition/formatting, I think it'd be a nice change.

Though one thing I've noticed: there is a big difference in the sense of force between the words "grabbing" and "fondling". Grabbing seems more like "squeezing", while fondling seems more like "rubbing". So maybe they should be kept separate and just have a tag cleanup in ball_fondling to separate the two?

Edit: Also discovered ball tugging/ball stretching, which is definitely visually different from the act of ball fondling.

https://e621.net/forum/show/160698

I guess you can(?)

TheGreatWolfgang said:
https://e621.net/forum/show/160698

I guess you can(?)

Thanks for the context, I knew I remembered some discussion on these tags from somewhere. I did bring up some more reasoning/thoughts on the matter here, namely that there can be a difference between the two, just need some cleanup/clarification on ball fondling if that's the case.

-1 if only because you can fondle your own balls, but "ball_grab" is pretty unlikely to be ever possible if there's only one char involved.

Kida said:
Makes for a nice setup here: holding penis/holding balls penis grab/ball grab

This is bit of a tangent, but that's actually problematic because holding_* and holding tags are strictly for objects. Holding_penis was the only exception, and one that we were thinking of fixing someday. So adding the holding_balls tag muddles that group even further.

Genjar said:
This is bit of a tangent, but that's actually problematic because holding_* and holding tags are strictly for objects. Holding_penis was the only exception, and one that we were thinking of fixing someday. So adding the holding_balls tag muddles that group even further.

Buuut holding_breasts is also a used tag, with over 600 posts in it. Having holding_* be strictly for objects doesn't make much sense.

Kida said:
Buuut holding_breasts is also a used tag, with over 600 posts in it. Having holding_* be strictly for objects doesn't make much sense.

Ack. Yeah, looks like that's grown recently.

There's already other tags for 'holding' living things. Such as carrying, cradling, hug, various *_grab tags, etc. Which is why holding was picked as the tag for items, and only items.

But it is messy, partly because of holding_penis etc: it seems consistent to tag those as holding, because of the tag name.

And holding cannot be disambiguated because there's such a wide variety of items that can be held. We'd end up with tons of single-use tags. So it's currently used as a catch-all for held things that don't fit elsewhere.

I don't know how that could be fixed.

I dislike ball fondling, not trying to be hostile here but i really don't like the fondling.

It's my opinion to dislike or say something like that randomly on wrong discussion.

Genjar said:
And holding cannot be disambiguated because there's such a wide variety of items that can be held. We'd end up with tons of single-use tags. So it's currently used as a catch-all for held things that don't fit elsewhere.

I don't know how that could be fixed.

Why not make that current holding tag into holding_object, give it the object-specific subtags as it already does, then make holding itself into a disambiguation with holding_object and holding_* (body parts) as subtags of that?

I like the idea of holding_* being self-holding of body parts while *_grab is someone else grabbing another's body parts, personally.

Kida said:
Why not make that current holding tag into holding_object, give it the object-specific subtags as it already does, then make holding itself into a disambiguation with holding_object and holding_* (body parts) as subtags of that?

Excellent idea. I think you just solved that problem.
It'd definitely require less cleanup than holding currently does.

Genjar said:
Excellent idea. I think you just solved that problem.
It'd definitely require less cleanup than holding currently does.

Awesome! So holding becomes a disambiguation, and gets a structure similar to this:

• holding body parts (a character holding/squeezing their own body parts)
• holding butt
• holding breasts
• holding penis
• holding balls
• holding leg
• holding hands (is an exception)
• holding object (the following imply this tag)
• holding book
• holding condom
• holding flower
• holding glass
• holding sex_toy
• holding weapon

And back to the subject, *_grab becomes a character grabbing another character's body parts.

• butt grab
• breast grab
• penis grab
• ball grab
• leg grab
• arm grab

Since ball fondling denotes a different action (fondling rather than grab or holding), perhaps it remains and just continues to imply balls and fondling. fondling can be a different group alongside holding and grab altogether, with the following structure:

• butt fondling
• ball fondling
• breast fondling

In fact, fondling feels more like squeezing to me, so perhaps squeezing can be cleaned up as well, with most of the posts becoming *_fondling. Or the other way around if *_squeezing is preferred. Though most of the squeezing posts look like they would fit under *_grab or *_holding, so there's that point too.

ball tugging should probably just get a cleanup and then be alias'd to ball stretching.

Edit: On second thought, ball_tugging seems like a more tame version of ball_stretching (which is apparently a bdsm-related act, oops). Perhaps they should stay separate.

Kida said:
Awesome! So holding becomes a disambiguation, and gets a structure similar to this:

• holding body parts (a character holding/squeezing their own body parts)
• holding ass / holding butt
• holding breasts
• holding penis
• holding balls
• holding leg
• holding hands (is an exception)

I like that. Holding_leg and holding_butt work great for all those pics where people are on their back and holding their legs up or grabbing their own butt with only one hand.

Circeus said:
I like that. Holding_leg and holding_butt work great for all those pics where people are on their back and holding their legs up or grabbing their own butt with only one hand.

Yeah! With holding becoming a disambiguation, we can have all the holding/grab body part parallels to narrow down search results.

I went ahead shifted a few posts around to populate some of the proposed tag changes, as well as edited their wiki pages, to show what the difference is and display the kind of content each tag would contain. Didn't want to do too much in case an admin doesn't agree with this course of action and decides to reverse the changes (in which case, all the holding_* tags can be safely alias'd back to their *_grab counterparts, aside from penis and breasts). Hopefully that's alright to do. I will happily sift through the *_grab tags to find pictures that suit holding_* more, and continue to retag them if we can get some more feedback here. :3

Left the fondling/squeezing tags mostly alone for now, since they seem redundant or in need of a cleanup but I'm not sure how that'd be handled. Though I suppose anyone grabbing or holding could be fondling/squeezing/not doing much, so they're separate tags that shouldn't imply one another.