ImpidiDinkaDoo said:
Formatting it that way would make the tagging format incredibly tedious when it comes to characters who have both a penis and a vagina. That + explicitly gendering the genitalia in the tags (we try to not explicitly gender tags, see for, bull, rooster, etc) is a no from me.

These changes do not apply to characters with both a penis and a vagina. That's what the herm tag is for. This change is solely about characters who are one specific biological sex in all ways except their genitals, which are entirely replaced with that of the opposite sex. That means a female with a penis but no vagina, and a male with a vagina but no penis.

Given that e621 changed gay to instead be male/male (among other tag changes in the past), I don't believe that preventing verbosity is high on the importance scale.

DrNick said:
This would be a whole lot less absurd if literally anyone, anywhere, *ever* will search for gynomorph or andromorph. But they won't -- these are bogus made up newspeak tags that exist only to try and appease -- nobody will ever actually use them.

Funny, I remember someone saying pretty much the same thing about cuntboy when that was coined on usenet in early 90s. Language evolves.

Sharkiiie said:
Yeah just wanted to add I think this is a dumb change.
All it does is makes learning tags harder for new users, and confuse current users.

If users unable to process porn without the immediate terms "dick" and "cunt" are the ones we lose, one presumes we're not losing much then.

EightyNine said:
If users unable to process porn enough to operate it without the terms "dick" and "cunt" are the ones to suffer, one presumes we're not losing much then.

It's not so much that e621 'lose' users 'unable to process porn ... without the terms "dick" and "cunt"', but rather that it seems e621 is now requiring users to be familiar with relatively obscure Greek root words.

I think the most mainstream words that use either of those prefixes are 'gynecology' and 'androgynous'. If that's the extent of your familiarity with those prefixes, you'd never guess what those words meant.

Tynach said:
It's not so much that e621 'lose' users 'unable to process porn ... without the terms "dick" and "cunt"', but rather that it seems e621 is now requiring users to be familiar with relatively obscure Greek root words.

I think the most mainstream words that use either of those prefixes are 'gynecology' and 'androgynous'. If that's the extent of your familiarity with those prefixes, you'd never guess what those words meant.

Species tags use large, unfamiliar words all the time. I doubt the average layman would know what euplerid, proboscidean, mephitid, etc etc is.

Yet the tags and people using them still function relatively fine, even if a small delve into wiki pages is needed every once in a while.

ImpidiDinkaDoo said:
Species tags use large, unfamiliar words all the time. I doubt the average layman would know what euplerid, proboscidean, mephitid, etc etc is.

Yet the tags and people using them still function relatively fine, even if a small delve into wiki pages is needed every once in a while.

Species tags are sectioned off at the top, and if you are looking for images that are the same species, you don't have to try to mentally figure out if the tag you're looking at is a species tag or not. The same cannot be said for these tags for biological sex.

Besides, weren't you earlier saying that long, 'tedious' tags are bad? At least, as a reason why my proposal on the previous page was less desirable?

ImpidiDinkaDoo said:
Species tags use large, unfamiliar words all the time. I doubt the average layman would know what ... mephitid, etc etc is.

Because skunk implies mephitid, and the page shows both the tag skunk and mephitid...

So how about we have dickgirl imply gynomorph and display both, by that logic?

Tynach said:
Species tags are sectioned off at the top, and if you are looking for images that are the same species, you don't have to try to mentally figure out if the tag you're looking at is a species tag or not. The same cannot be said for these tags for biological sex.

Besides, weren't you earlier saying that long, 'tedious' tags are bad? At least, as a reason why my proposal on the previous page was less desirable?

Long tedious tags are bad if they are unnecessary and/or incredibly repetitive. Scientific animal classifications are not that, clothed_big_breasted_woman_with_penis (just an oddball example here) is. Your suggestion was the latter, imho.

Also what happens if the characters have oddball, animal genitalia as well? There are images that can be classified as man with a vagina for TWYS purposes, but show a character with a very obviously visible cloaca rather than just a vagina. Your tag suggestions wouldn't sit right in that situation, imho.

Tynach said:
It's not so much that e621 'lose' users 'unable to process porn ... without the terms "dick" and "cunt"', but rather that it seems e621 is now requiring users to be familiar with relatively obscure Greek root words.

Why not? So they have to learn a couple new terms. We learn new things every day and learning two relatively simple to learn words isn't all that hard. Unless one hates learning things or considers the average user of e621 to be stupid. It seems to me that the staff of e621 has a higher opinion of the user base's smarts than that.

Sharkiiie said:
Because skunk implies mephitid, and the page shows both the tag skunk and mephitid...

So how about we have dickgirl imply gynomorph and display both, by that logic?

Ah, that's easy. There are mephitids that aren't skunks, but not skunks that aren't mephitids. Since the tags are similar but not identical, it makes sense to have two separate tags.

In this case, they want to simply get rid of the 'vulgar' words 'cunt' and 'dick'. I feel like there's no real need to on a porn site, but I also understand that my personal opinion isn't shared by many others, and it's believable to assume that most people don't want those two words associated with their character's biological sex.

But anyway, since the two tags are literally describing the same phenomenon and are exact synonyms, it makes sense to replace one with the other.

Clawstripe said:
Why not? So they have to learn a couple new terms. We learn new things every day and learning two relatively simple to learn words isn't all that hard. Unless one hates learning things or considers the average user of e621 to be stupid. It seems to me that the staff of e621 has a higher opinion of the user base's smarts than that.

It's more likely that they won't know what the terms mean, so will have no reason to look them up. If you're new and don't know what the proper term is for 'a girl with a penis and no vagina', and so you find a picture that fits that description and go searching through the tag list, you're not going to look up each tag you don't understand. There could be 50, even 100 tags to look at, and if 20 of them contain terms you don't know, and don't look related to what you're looking for, there's no reason to try looking them up.

Hence my suggestion of using female_(male_genitals) and male_(female_genitals).

Tynach said:
Ah, that's easy. There are mephitids that aren't skunks, but not skunks that aren't mephitids. Since the tags are similar but not identical, it makes sense to have two separate tags.

In this case, they want to simply get rid of the 'vulgar' words 'cunt' and 'dick'. I feel like there's no real need to on a porn site, but I also understand that my personal opinion isn't shared by many others, and it's believable to assume that most people don't want those two words associated with their character's biological sex.

But anyway, since the two tags are literally describing the same phenomenon and are exact synonyms, it makes sense to replace one with the other.

Cunt ant dick aren't why they're calling it vulgar, when other tags like cock_vore exist. A small number of users are offended by it.

The argument was that some other tags use weird greek names, but I'm willing to bet not many people manually tag that, rather they get implied.

So why make 2 fairly popular tags some obscure name?

Tynach said:
It's more likely that they won't know what the terms mean, so will have no reason to look them up. If you're new and don't know what the proper term is for 'a girl with a penis and no vagina', and so you find a picture that fits that description and go searching through the tag list, you're not going to look up each tag you don't understand. There could be 50, even 100 tags to look at, and if 20 of them contain terms you don't know, and don't look related to what you're looking for, there's no reason to try looking them up.

Hence my suggestion of using female_(male_genitals) and male_(female_genitals).

When you search a tag, the tag will immediately show you what tag it's aliased to at the top, like with every other tag alias. Search dog, and domestic_dog is shown at the top. Search intersexual, and intersex is shown at the top.

Same thing will happen here; search for cuntboy, andromorph shows at the top, indicating it is the tag used in place for the term being searched. Instantly the user knows what the tag is and is used for, and can maybe glance at the wikia to see the root words that made up the term itself.

Sharkiiie said:
Cunt ant dick aren't why they're calling it vulgar

Except... yeah, that is kind of why. The vulgarity of the tags is contextual, as we're trying to make the tags just as neutral as the base male and female tags are. We don't call the female tag cuntgirl, do we? That's the vulgarity here.

Other vulgar tags share the vulgarity equally among their variants, whereas male and female aren't nearly as vulgar as the other gender tags in question. To remedy this, we either start using cuntgirl and dickboy instead of female and male, or we try putting them on an equal playing field. We chose the latter, the best out of the options imho.

Sharkiiie said:
Cunt ant dick aren't why they're calling it vulgar, when other tags like cock_vore exist. A small number of users are offended by it.

The argument was that some other tags use weird greek names, but I'm willing to bet not many people manually tag that, rather they get implied.

So why make 2 fairly popular tags some obscure name?

Do we really have to explain the differences in verbiage used to describe an action vs the verbiage used to describe people's characters? Calling a penis a cock is not the same as calling a person a cock.

Sharkiiie said:
Cunt ant dick aren't why they're calling it vulgar, when other tags like cock_vore exist. A small number of users are offended by it.

The argument was that some other tags use weird greek names, but I'm willing to bet not many people manually tag that, rather they get implied.

So why make 2 fairly popular tags some obscure name?

does not apply to the identity of a character, and is also using cock instead of dick. Which is silly, and I think neither cock nor dick is vulgar or offensive... But I do understand that cock_vore, or even dick_vore or cunt_vore, are applying to an act, rather than a person as a whole.

Essentially, with dickgirl and cuntboy, there is no escape from the label. It doesn't matter what that character is doing, if their genitals are showing they are being labeled with the tag that most applies to them.

NotMeNotYou said:
Do we really have to explain the differences in verbiage used to describe an action vs the verbiage used to describe people's characters? Calling a penis a cock is not the same as calling a person a cock.

I didn't say that?
It's a girl with a dick, not a girl that is a dick (literally a penis, or are rude). That's what the current tag means.

ImpidiDinkaDoo said:
When you search a tag, the tag will immediately show you what tag it's aliased to at the top, like with every other tag alias. Search dog, and domestic_dog is shown at the top. Search intersexual, and intersex is shown at the top.

Same thing will happen here; search for cuntboy, andromorph shows at the top, indicating it is the tag used in place for the term being searched. Instantly the user knows what the tag is and is used for, and can maybe glance at the wikia to see the root words that made up the term itself.

That's actually an excellent point! But it doesn't help with the case I specifically outlined: a new user who has not been on the website, nor in the fandom, nor associated with the LGBTQ+ movement, for very long. They would not know what to search for. This includes the tags cuntboy and dickgirl. They'd not know to search for those, nor would they know to search for gynomorph/andromorph.

Instead, they would find an image that has what they want, and look at the mountain of tags next to said image.

Sharkiiie said:
I didn't say that?
It's a girl with a dick, not a girl that is a dick (literally a penis, or are rude). That's what the current tag means.

The thing is, even in non-explicit images, this term is tied to the character. A female character with a noticeable bulge, despite being in a relatively safe or questionable context, is then tied with the term dick despite nothing being visible. Imagine if the male tag was called dickboy, even in incredibly safe works. It's a bit bizarre

Tynach said:
That's actually an excellent point! But it doesn't help with the case I specifically outlined: a new user who has not been on the website, nor in the fandom, nor associated with the LGBTQ+ movement, for very long. They would not know what to search for. This includes the tags cuntboy and dickgirl. They'd not know to search for those, nor would they know to search for gynomorph/andromorph.

Instead, they would find an image that has what they want, and look at the mountain of tags next to said image.

Honestly that could possibly be remedied with an easy to find "intro" to the site page or something we could fashion up. I've had a similar idea in mind for something like this with basic things to tag on posts, wouldn't be against one for newer users to get a grasp on basic tags.

Sharkiiie said:
I didn't say that?
It's a girl with a dick, not a girl that is a dick (literally a penis, or are rude). That's what the current tag means.

Which is why I personally don't think the change is needed. However, it's a label - and I can see someone associating the phrase, "You are a cuntboy," closely with the phrase, "You are a cunt." Someone raised in an environment where the latter is frequently said in a very negative manner, probably doesn't want to have their character labeled in the same manner as the former.

ImpidiDinkaDoo said:
The thing is, even in non-explicit images, this term is tied to the character. A female character with a noticeable bulge, despite being in a relatively safe or questionable context, is then tied with the term dick despite nothing being visible. Imagine if the male tag was called dickboy, even in incredibly safe works. It's a bit bizarre

Sure, tagging male makes sense, since that's a common English word.
Nobody knows what gynomorph means, and the tagging system doesn't make obscure terms easy to learn without doing some digging, which most aren't going to do.

Tynach said:
Which is why I personally don't think the change is needed. However, it's a label - and I can see someone associating the phrase, "You are a cuntboy," closely with the phrase, "You are a cunt." Someone raised in an environment where the latter is frequently said in a very negative manner, probably doesn't want to have their character labeled in the same manner as the former.

Right, if they take the term the wrong way. But in that case we are taking a small percentage of users feelings into consideration over the majority's.

Sharkiiie said:
Sure, tagging male makes sense, since that's a common English word.
Nobody knows what gynomorph means, and the tagging system doesn't make obscure terms easy to learn without doing some digging, which most aren't going to do.

Well it looks like they are gonna learn, whether they like it or not :V

ImpidiDinkaDoo said:
The thing is, even in non-explicit images, this term is tied to the character. A female character with a noticeable bulge, despite being in a relatively safe or questionable context, is then tied with the term dick despite nothing being visible. Imagine if the male tag was called dickboy, even in incredibly safe works. It's a bit bizarre

Honestly that could possibly be remedied with an easy to find "intro" to the site page or something we could fashion up. I've had a similar idea in mind for something like this with basic things to tag on posts, wouldn't be against one for newer users to get a grasp on basic tags.

Would annoy anyone who visits from multiple computers/devices, having to skip through it every time e621 thinks they're a new person...

... Or, if it's not forced into people's faces from the start, nobody will even look at it.

And are you really going to sit down and look at the entire list of all tags on the site, sort them by 'likelihood to cause confusion' (which is a poorly defined attribute to begin with), and write a description for, say, the top 20 such tags?

I really doubt that sort of thing is feasible.

TheHuskyK9 said:
Well it looks like they are gonna learn, whether they like it or not :V

And what of the scenario I outlined? How will a new user who is unfamiliar with even the former tag names, learn what the new ones are? What about these tags will indicate that they relate to the genitals and biological sex of the characters in an image?

I really think there should be polls for large tag changes, or preferences on what alias displays for each user.
Since admins seem to be saying "oh well, fuck you, this is what we want."

My problem isn't "wahh, I like the old tags!", I just think the new tags are too confusing and unnecessary.

Sharkiiie said:
I really think there should be polls for large tag changes, or preferences on what alias displays for each user.
Since admins seem to be saying "oh well, fuck you, this is what we want."

My problem isn't "wahh, I like the old tags!", I just think the new tags are too confusing and unnecessary.

The admins did have a large forum topic with many replies from us users. The problem is that those forum topics aren't going to receive any attention from people opposed to the changes - they will be sought after and found mostly only by people who want the change.

The new tags don't appear to be in effect yet, and I believe that it's possible that this thread is for collecting feedback from everyone else on the change. It's linked at the top of every page in the 'news' section, so it'll be found and commented on by many more users than the previous topic.

If polls were similarly made with a similar usability, I think that'd also be an excellent idea - and one I definitely agree with. However, it does not appear to me that the admins made this decision because it's only what they wanted. I think they genuinely believed that most users of the website wanted this.

And for all I know, they might be right. Those of us who are opposed might be a very loud minority. But that's why polls are such a good idea: helps weed out what is and what is not an actual majority opinion, as long as the poll is visible equally to both sides of the debate.

EightyNine said:
If users unable to process porn without the immediate terms "dick" and "cunt" are the ones we lose, one presumes we're not losing much then.

Try not insulting someone as your whole post

Sharkiiie said:
I really think there should be polls for large tag changes, or preferences on what alias displays for each user.
Since admins seem to be saying "oh well, fuck you, this is what we want."

My problem isn't "wahh, I like the old tags!", I just think the new tags are too confusing and unnecessary.

Okay, sorry If I sound like I"m talking down to you a bit here, but I've been taking care of a kid who's going through a lot of change right now. I'm not sure I can swap out of "aunt wolf" mode. So please, no offense intended.

Change is big and scary. and it looks weird, and it feels uncomfortable and it's shaped wrong. No one really likes it, unless the change is something they can really grasp and understand.

You're USED to things being a certain way, and that's okay! That's what we do, as humans. we get comfortable with the world a certain way. 90% of us like a nice regular predictable day to day life with random adventures of our choosing. we don't like it when stuff changes and we need to adapt.

But we DO adapt.

In a year, you'll be familiar with these new tags. You'll have figured out whatever it is your brain needs to remember it (Again, working with a kid lately: There's lots of talking about how peopel learn in different ways and how you gotta figure out what makes your brain remember best!) and in a year, you'll wonder what all the fuss now was about. It's different and that means it's scary, but we can learn. <3 every word we know we've learned, from Cat to Mom to Dictionary to yeet. SOme are faster than others. Some take a while. You'll get this though.

I know you will <3

Tynach said:
The admins did have a large forum topic with many replies from us users. The problem is that those forum topics aren't going to receive any attention from people opposed to the changes - they will be sought after and found mostly only by people who want the change.

The new tags don't appear to be in effect yet, and I believe that it's possible that this thread is for collecting feedback from everyone else on the change. It's linked at the top of every page in the 'news' section, so it'll be found and commented on by many more users than the previous topic.

If polls were similarly made with a similar usability, I think that'd also be an excellent idea - and one I definitely agree with. However, it does not appear to me that the admins made this decision because it's only what they wanted. I think they genuinely believed that most users of the website wanted this.

And for all I know, they might be right. Those of us who are opposed might be a very loud minority. But that's why polls are such a good idea: helps weed out what is and what is not an actual majority opinion, as long as the poll is visible equally to both sides of the debate.

Yeah, I was totally unaware of a prior thread. I'm sure most of the users don't even look at the forum.

If they were to post a poll in the news section, I'm sure more would look at it.

If an admin could confirm if this thread is being used for feedback, cool. But I see several admins continuing to argue in favor of the change, which makes me think it's just a place to argue lol

It's possible those against are the minority, but it's also possible that those for the change are the minority. Most users likely don't care tbh, but this would be a lot more interesting and "fair" to see poll results.

SnowWolf said:
Change is big and scary.

...

You're USED to things being a certain way

...

In a year, you'll be familiar with these new tags.

Again, it's not just that I don't want change, if they were better terms I wouldn't care as much.

As for the talking down bit, see my last reply lol
Hence why I said this seems like a change admins want, y'all have the power, and only argue in favor of the change, shooting down everything any user says against the change.

SnowWolf said:
-snip-

Putting a "sorry this is super condescending" at the beginning of a post doesn't actually make it any better that it's super condescending. Combined with responses like the "whether they like it or not" from another admin a bit above this one, it makes me wonder why there's even a thread open to comments from everyone if any objections are just going to be ignored or talked past.

hanzai said:
Putting a "sorry this is super condescending" at the beginning of a post doesn't actually make it any better that it's super condescending. Combined with responses like the "whether they like it or not" from another admin a bit above this one, it makes me wonder why there's even a thread open to comments from everyone if any objections are just going to be ignored or talked past.

BIG agree, probably said better than I did.

Yeah the admin posts basically saying, "if you don't like it, too bad! :P"
are really not moving this post anywhere lol

Sharkiiie said:
Yeah, I was totally unaware of a prior thread. I'm sure most of the users don't even look at the forum.

If they were to post a poll in the news section, I'm sure more would look at it.

If an admin could confirm if this thread is being used for feedback, cool. But I see several admins continuing to argue in favor of the change, which makes me think it's just a place to argue lol

It's possible those against are the minority, but it's also possible that those for the change are the minority. Most users likely don't care tbh, but this would be a lot more interesting and "fair" to see poll results.

I'm feeling slightly too lazy to go digging through the previous pages for an exact example, but I thought I remember seeing an admin say something along the lines of, "If we need to change the names again, then we change the names again, and alias both dickgirl/cuntboy and gynomorph/andromorph to those new tags."

I took that to mean that there was still room for persuading them to either reverse the decision, or implement a new decision to use yet different names for these tags.

I may have misread or misinterpreted what they were saying, or it may not have been an admin. But I still would like to believe that if they are shown they made the wrong decision, they'd acknowledge it and decide to change course.

But to do that, you have to have an idea that actually shows you have considered both sides. Reasons for why the change is good, and reasons for why the change is bad. Showing an understanding of both is key, and I think it's also key for any alternate solutions being proposed to show that understanding.

MissChu said:
Sincere question, Parasprite, how would you have changed the tags?

Anything that wouldn't have gone against what the rest of the community uses, and didn't have a dictionary definition that refers to something that's misleading in a way that would include female, male, herm, maleherm...

But this is all out of my hands now.

Furaffinity did this better already, mods here are just more worried about what the artists drawing trans body types and handwaving it away with "she was just born like that/she drank a magic dick potion" feel than how trans artists drawing trans characters feel about the tags. This is honestly the only instance in which "tag what you see" is relevant; why is a characters trans/cis status classified as uneccessary metadata while names are not, if twys is so absolute?

hanzai said:
Putting a "sorry this is super condescending" at the beginning of a post doesn't actually make it any better that it's super condescending. Combined with responses like the "whether they like it or not" from another admin a bit above this one, it makes me wonder why there's even a thread open to comments from everyone if any objections are just going to be ignored or talked past.

See, no. This is not really how this works. I'm being polite, and I am acknowledging that I may have a tone problem because of the way my life has been lately. I am taking care of a kid who has been abused, and hurt by several people for a while and I am dealing with a lot of questions where I have to slow the fuck down and try to be comforting and say that it is going to be okay, despite the fact that everything feels very not okay. I got 10 minutes alone with my husband the other night, and I didn't know how to have a conversation with him because this has been my entire existence recently. I am trying to approach this from a kind and moderate perspective -- because that's what I, as I person, do.

Just like I am accepting that the people being angry are upset and worried and I"m trying to set aside much of their anger and set it aside to try and address their issues, I am asking that other people please be tolerant of me being in "aunt wolf" mode. I am exhausted. I have been up all day. I am up late to reply here on this thread. I am taking time that I could be catching up on sleep to post here. to talk to you.

This has probably been the hardest month of my life, and I am still here to talk to you about what words we are using to refer to certain groups of beings.

I could leave y'all to the staff members who take a more hard ass approach, but I really don't want to. I like you people (as in, the users of 3621), and I want to try and make things good, but I have a very limited amount of rope here.

The staff are not a hive mind. we are all individuals. we all have our own perspectives on the matter and our own tolerances we are willing to put up with. A lot of people here are being rude as hell, and I don't understand why.

We are not enemies. We are trying to help. if our ways of helping are not good enough, then provide other answers. Instead, we have people screaming about how we're transphobic pieces of shit. That doesn't help.

If you have solutions, offer them. This thread was chosen as an declaration of change. But nothing has changed yet and we are not bricks unwilling to adjust course if we get a better--and feasible suggestion. (I"m not promising anything, but if someone had something that made us go WOW! .... we'd talk about it. we've been talking about it regularly. We talk about it a lot.

Even beside the long-ass thread mentioned before, a post about these tags comes up every couple months. it's usually brought up by someone screaming how we're transphobic pieces of shit for allowing this to exist, and not providing any alternative solutions other than "FIX IT" and even if the first person is polite enough, SOMEONE some in, happy to talk about how we're all scum for having a conversation and not jsut..... fixing it. with a magic wand, I guess. and now, here we are, trying to fit it, and I am, again, transphobic trash for not doing it the 'right' way.

the reason there's a thread is so that people know that there is change coming. and to keep there from being 10 million threads screaming about everything we're doing wrong. And keep it all in one thread instead.

we're willing to talk about this. but very few people are being polite about it. Why? I don't know. All I know is that I'm tired, and tomorrow I have the kid all day while my husband goes back to work, and I'm up far too late.

SnowWolf said:
See, no. This is not really how this works. I'm being polite, and I am acknowledging that I may have a tone problem because of the way my life has been lately. I am taking care of a kid who has been abused, and hurt by several people for a while and I am dealing with a lot of questions where I have to slow the fuck down and try to be comforting and say that it is going to be okay, despite the fact that everything feels very not okay. I got 10 minutes alone with my husband the other night, and I didn't know how to have a conversation with him because this has been my entire existence recently. I am trying to approach this from a kind and moderate perspective -- because that's what I, as I person, do.

Just like I am accepting that the people being angry are upset and worried and I"m trying to set aside much of their anger and set it aside to try and address their issues, I am asking that other people please be tolerant of me being in "aunt wolf" mode. I am exhausted. I have been up all day. I am up late to reply here on this thread. I am taking time that I could be catching up on sleep to post here. to talk to you.

This has probably been the hardest month of my life, and I am still here to talk to you about what words we are using to refer to certain groups of beings.

I could leave y'all to the staff members who take a more hard ass approach, but I really don't want to. I like you people (as in, the users of 3621), and I want to try and make things good, but I have a very limited amount of rope here.

The staff are not a hive mind. we are all individuals. we all have our own perspectives on the matter and our own tolerances we are willing to put up with. A lot of people here are being rude as hell, and I don't understand why.

We are not enemies. We are trying to help. if our ways of helping are not good enough, then provide other answers. Instead, we have people screaming about how we're transphobic pieces of shit. That doesn't help.

If you have solutions, offer them. This thread was chosen as an declaration of change. But nothing has changed yet and we are not bricks unwilling to adjust course if we get a better--and feasible suggestion. (I"m not promising anything, but if someone had something that made us go WOW! .... we'd talk about it. we've been talking about it regularly. We talk about it a lot.

Even beside the long-ass thread mentioned before, a post about these tags comes up every couple months. it's usually brought up by someone screaming how we're transphobic pieces of shit for allowing this to exist, and not providing any alternative solutions other than "FIX IT" and even if the first person is polite enough, SOMEONE some in, happy to talk about how we're all scum for having a conversation and not jsut..... fixing it. with a magic wand, I guess. and now, here we are, trying to fit it, and I am, again, transphobic trash for not doing it the 'right' way.

the reason there's a thread is so that people know that there is change coming. and to keep there from being 10 million threads screaming about everything we're doing wrong. And keep it all in one thread instead.

we're willing to talk about this. but very few people are being polite about it. Why? I don't know. All I know is that I'm tired, and tomorrow I have the kid all day while my husband goes back to work, and I'm up far too late.

You're not trash, their attitude and behavior is trash. <3

SnowWolf said:

See, no. This is not really how this works. I'm being polite, and I am acknowledging that I may have a tone problem because of the way my life has been lately. I am taking care of a kid who has been abused, and hurt by several people for a while and I am dealing with a lot of questions where I have to slow the fuck down and try to be comforting and say that it is going to be okay, despite the fact that everything feels very not okay. I got 10 minutes alone with my husband the other night, and I didn't know how to have a conversation with him because this has been my entire existence recently. I am trying to approach this from a kind and moderate perspective -- because that's what I, as I person, do.

Just like I am accepting that the people being angry are upset and worried and I"m trying to set aside much of their anger and set it aside to try and address their issues, I am asking that other people please be tolerant of me being in "aunt wolf" mode. I am exhausted. I have been up all day. I am up late to reply here on this thread. I am taking time that I could be catching up on sleep to post here. to talk to you.

This has probably been the hardest month of my life, and I am still here to talk to you about what words we are using to refer to certain groups of beings.

I could leave y'all to the staff members who take a more hard ass approach, but I really don't want to. I like you people (as in, the users of 3621), and I want to try and make things good, but I have a very limited amount of rope here.

The staff are not a hive mind. we are all individuals. we all have our own perspectives on the matter and our own tolerances we are willing to put up with. A lot of people here are being rude as hell, and I don't understand why.

We are not enemies. We are trying to help. if our ways of helping are not good enough, then provide other answers. Instead, we have people screaming about how we're transphobic pieces of shit. That doesn't help.

If you have solutions, offer them. This thread was chosen as an declaration of change. But nothing has changed yet and we are not bricks unwilling to adjust course if we get a better--and feasible suggestion. (I"m not promising anything, but if someone had something that made us go WOW! .... we'd talk about it. we've been talking about it regularly. We talk about it a lot.

Even beside the long-ass thread mentioned before, a post about these tags comes up every couple months. it's usually brought up by someone screaming how we're transphobic pieces of shit for allowing this to exist, and not providing any alternative solutions other than "FIX IT" and even if the first person is polite enough, SOMEONE some in, happy to talk about how we're all scum for having a conversation and not jsut..... fixing it. with a magic wand, I guess. and now, here we are, trying to fit it, and I am, again, transphobic trash for not doing it the 'right' way.

the reason there's a thread is so that people know that there is change coming. and to keep there from being 10 million threads screaming about everything we're doing wrong. And keep it all in one thread instead.

we're willing to talk about this. but very few people are being polite about it. Why? I don't know. All I know is that I'm tired, and tomorrow I have the kid all day while my husband goes back to work, and I'm up far too late.

I think andromorph and gynomorph are relatively clear and concise alternatives to dickgirl and cuntboy and are far less vulgar/offensive when applied to someone's character.

Any other alternative would have to be short and to-the-point to prevent the tags from turning into an underscore/parenthesis massacre.

or andromorph/gynomorph

or muscular_andromorph

or gynomorph_penetrating

Just to list a few examples of problems with more wordy approaches.

SnowWolf said:
-snip-

I haven't called you, or anyone else trash, or pieces of shit, or any other insult. Nor have I done a lot of the other things you're going off about. I'm sorry to hear about the troubles going on in your life, but I can't exactly ask up front for a total stranger online to spill the details of their personal life in advance on the off-chance they're in a bad place right now. This has already gotten uncomfortably personal all of a sudden, so I'll just leave it at that and nope out for now.

gaylizards said:
Furaffinity did this better already, mods here are just more worried about what the artists drawing trans body types and handwaving it away with "she was just born like that/she drank a magic dick potion" feel than how trans artists drawing trans characters feel about the tags. This is honestly the only instance in which "tag what you see" is relevant; why is a characters trans/cis status classified as uneccessary metadata while names are not, if twys is so absolute?

Names are required for searching for specific characters, and refer to something you can see in the image: a recognizable character. This is extremely useful, which is why it's an allowed exception.
Trans/cis status is something that's not even visible, being tied to the character's mind rather than its body. Yet, that can change depending on who's depicting that character. Everyone has their own headcanon for fictional characters. Thus, people wouldn't be able to tag it reliably without looking at the source link or being familiar with the artist, which is very much against the spirit of TWYS.
Maybe there could be a character wiki for looking up non-visual tags like this...?

Furaffinity lets artists(well, uploaders but it's the artist in most cases) use whatever tags they want, which has its benefits, but e621 can't do that since the uploader is usually NOT the artist. I wouldn't call their tagging system better, anyway, since there's no rules for tagging besides "don't put your artist comments in the tags" and that's not even enforced most of the time.

I suppose trans/cis status could be put in the description of uploaded images here. There's no rules about outside information for the description, are there?

CamKitty said:
Try not insulting someone as your whole post

No thanks, but you can work on that passive-aggression yourself.
The whinging of a group of mouthy dire-children over "oh no something above two syllables? that's TOO many letters for me!" is worth less to me than the dirt under my nails.

Oh, also, some people are just born intersex. It's not a body type entirely caused by HRT or surgery, so to call it a trans body type is inaccurate at best.

Ninosi said:
I wish you the best of luck, strength, and patience with the kid. That kind of situation can be super emotionally taxing to deal with.

I think andromorph and gynomorph are relatively clear and concise alternatives to dickgirl and cuntboy and are far less vulgar/offensive when applied to someone's character.

Any other alternative would have to be short and to-the-point to prevent the tags from turning into an underscore/parenthesis massacre.

male_(female_genitals)/female_(male_genitals)

or andromorph/gynomorph

muscular_masculine_intersex

or muscular_andromorph

female_body_with_penis_penetrating

or gynomorph_penetrating

Just to list a few examples of problems with more wordy approaches.

My goal with proposing male_(female_genitals) is that the tag would be discoverable for people who have no idea what the old tags were, and are unfamiliar with Greek root words.

Personally, I also somewhat disagree with the existence of things like muscular_dickgirl - I don't believe that should be a tag. Users should search for muscular and dickgirl (or I suppose, gynomorph now), and skip over images where the muscular character isn't the one with the penis and feminine figure.

The reason I disagree with that being a tag, is because then it feels like there's an obligation to add not just separate tags for muscular_herm and muscular_cuntboy (or, I suppose muscular_andromorph), both of which do exist... But also things like skinny_male (exists), skinny_female (doesn't), skinny_herm (nope), skinny_dickgirl (still nope...), and so on, for all sorts of various tags.

The vast majority of things like that don't have dedicated combo-tags, so why is 'muscular' an exception? It just clutters the tag lists with little benefit.

Now, on the other hand... If they modified the backend to allow tag combos to be stored as tag combos, where you actually have, say, the dickgirl (or new equivalent) tag, but then could tag that tag with muscular, skinny, etc... That'd be sweet! But that'd be a lot of work, and would likely cause performance and usability issues.

Shiitake said:
Names are required for searching for specific characters, and refer to something you can see in the image: a recognizable character. This is extremely useful, which is why it's an allowed exception.
Trans/cis status is something that's not even visible, being tied to the character's mind rather than its body. Yet, that can change depending on who's depicting that character. Everyone has their own headcanon for fictional characters. Thus, people wouldn't be able to tag it reliably without looking at the source link or being familiar with the artist, which is very much against the spirit of TWYS.
Maybe there could be a character wiki for looking up non-visual tags like this...?

Furaffinity lets artists(well, uploaders but it's the artist in most cases) use whatever tags they want, which has its benefits, but e621 can't do that since the uploader is usually NOT the artist. I wouldn't call their tagging system better, anyway, since there's no rules for tagging besides "don't put your artist comments in the tags" and that's not even enforced most of the time.

I suppose trans/cis status could be put in the description of uploaded images here. There's no rules about outside information for the description, are there?

Descriptions are perfect for stuff like the character's canonical gender, and admins frequently encourage users to put things like a character's bio in the character's wiki.

Tynach said:

My goal with proposing male_(female_genitals) is that the tag would be discoverable for people who have no idea what the old tags were, and are unfamiliar with Greek root words.

Personally, I also somewhat disagree with the existence of things like muscular_dickgirl - I don't believe that should be a tag. Users should search for muscular and dickgirl (or I suppose, gynomorph now), and skip over images where the muscular character isn't the one with the penis and feminine figure.

The reason I disagree with that being a tag, is because then it feels like there's an obligation to add not just separate tags for muscular_herm and muscular_cuntboy (or, I suppose muscular_andromorph), both of which do exist... But also things like skinny_male (exists), skinny_female (doesn't), skinny_herm (nope), skinny_dickgirl (still nope...), and so on, for all sorts of various tags.

The vast majority of things like that don't have dedicated combo-tags, so why is 'muscular' an exception? It just clutters the tag lists with little benefit.

Now, on the other hand... If they modified the backend to allow tag combos to be stored as tag combos, where you actually have, say, the dickgirl (or new equivalent) tag, but then could tag that tag with muscular, skinny, etc... That'd be sweet! But that'd be a lot of work, and would likely cause performance and usability issues.

You make a lot of good points.

would be more clear and recognizable, but it would quickly cause issues with other tags becoming too verbose, as I pointed out earlier.
__________________________________________________________________________
I disagree that the muscular_intersex/male/female tags shouldn't exist.

Say a user loves seeing muscular intersex characters with non-muscular male characters. They search muscular intersex/male and have to sift through tons of posts with muscular males and/or non-muscular intersex characters.

The same thing applies to the overweight_intersex/male/female tags.
__________________________________________________________________________

The lack of existence of one tag doesn't necessarily mean another shouldn't exist. It can just mean that no one has created or implemented it yet, for whatever reason.
__________________________________________________________________________
Tag combos being stored internally would be an awesome concept really, that way you wouldn't have to have separate wikis or tag space taken up by them.

It'd be the ideal, but I don't know if that's within the scope of the site at this point. We can hope though, right?

Tynach said:
The admins did have a large forum topic with many replies from us users. The problem is that those forum topics aren't going to receive any attention from people opposed to the changes - they will be sought after and found mostly only by people who want the change.

We actually had one big thread with 37 pages of discussion, by both sides of the issue at one point as well as many, many other forum threads that were shorter but went about the same issue. Both with people for a change (any change in that regard) and then the regular people pushing for keeping the status quo.

The push back was usually either people that just don't want change out of comfort / saw nothing wrong with the current tags, don't want to "lose" to the "politically correct brigade", or straight up said they hate SJWs.

Personally I'm for a change because that might mean we get to keep more artwork on the page, which benefits everybody, and so far nobody has gotten hurt by a being a bit nicer to other people / in general.

As for discussing the change, the discussion has been going on for more than 3 years now, though we (staff) have probably been a lot more involved in it than other people have, purely because these discussions are brought to our attention time and time again. The thread is also labeled as "announcement" on purpose, it's going to happen, but we're willing to answer questions about it.

Sharkiiie said:
Sure, tagging male makes sense, since that's a common English word.
Nobody knows what gynomorph means, and the tagging system doesn't make obscure terms easy to learn without doing some digging, which most aren't going to do.

Might be easier if we had a gender tags category like we have copyright, artist, character names. We can add more, though that'd require downtime where I'm not sure how long it'd take. I'll ask our dev if we can make one, having the new tags visible in a category with the "normal" gender tags would definitely help with the association that it's a gender tag in the first place. After that they're likely willing to click it, then get bombarded with hundreds of images of the common theme of a "specific body type with genitals combination" and will thus learn the meaning without having to read anything else.
And if all else fails we just answer the question in a forum when someone asks for clarification.

NotMeNotYou said:
Might be easier if we had a gender tags category like we have copyright, artist, character names.

Downtime aside, I think this is an awesome idea!

This would be something that would go a long way to mitigating this change by emphasizing that andromorph/gynomorph are gender tags. Having a gender category with its own color would be a nice change for tag organization anyway.

Definitely 100% for this if it's something the staff ever seriously considers.

Also I just realized I didn't actually quote and reply to this part:

Tynach said:
Given that e621 changed gay to instead be male/male (among other tag changes in the past), I don't believe that preventing verbosity is high on the importance scale.

People kept tagging gay on male solo images to denote the character's sexual orientation, despite the tag gay being supposed to be used for actually male homosexual actions happening in the image.
And even with the alias being as it it people still try to tag gay on solo images, which has to be cleaned up regularly.

As such, this example is an entirely different shoe altogether.

It's about time. Bravo!

I'm not normally the sort of person who gets offended about gender things, but I've always had a certain distaste for the words dickgirl and cuntboy because they do seem pretty vulgar. Dick is questionable. Cunt isn't really part of polite vernacular no matter how you try to spin it. I've always looked the other way because who am I to tell people what words they can use to describe themselves, and there didn't seem to be any better alternatives.

I like the new words though. Hopefully this will get people to stop complaining that e621 is a terrible judgemental website because they use that dreadful "cboy" word.

While you're at it can you swap vagina for pussy? If we're all going to look at pictures of them we can probably call them by their actual name.

Reading through the thread, I'm surprised it wasn't locked after page 2. Bravo.
Lets throw my two cents in as this pitfire can't get much worse,
While the admins desire to try and make changes that can appease everybody for the better is an admirable one, the seemingly one universal constant when it comes to the kind of people who are hardcore into the 'trans movement' and the like, you can not make (all of) them happy. There will be more level headed ones, many of which are probably lurking rather than jumping in, who either see and like the change and/or understand the impossible situation this all is, but the select few out of a fraction of a 1% of overall human population who see themselves as the morality police who speaks on the behalf of all of them, won't ever be appeased until you completely remove everything they find 'offensive' (which blasts head on into a myriad of subject matters that don't even remotely relate) and you appease their 13+ genders (Which certainly in the context of this sites "tag what you see" the very concept of 'gender' is bullshit given that there's zero consensus as to even what the hell the term means beyond reinforcing the notion that whats expected of you based on your literal physical sex is valid, flipped or not, which would be an antithesis to what seemingly all of the people who are into the trans thing seem to stand for).
Personally not a fan of the proposed obscure greek terms for the reasons already stated many times in the thread so far, with issues of obscurity and the terms not quite being 100% applicable, and everything proposed instead having its own issues on a sliding scale of "What the hell even is this?" to "Bloats what should be a straightforward tag a mile long." I'd almost say throw out the notion of male/female all together, but given that aside from a small fraction of art this change actually applies to, literally just "Male" or "Female" in the general tags is still perfectly valid, highlighting how insignificant this all is in relation to the wider site. I bring that point up, because for that reason I don't think having a dedicated "Establish sex" section for the tags, given it would literally either be "Male", "Female", or both for pieces with two characters of opposite sexes in the same image, for probably 95% of all the images. ie, it'd be a largely redundant addition that only serves to stroke the egos of the lot who care more about how non-conforming a characters sexuality is than literally anything else that could matter.
The fact the change aliases rather than outright replaces was the best move out of all of this, but cuntboy and dickgirl, regardless of how anyone feels about it, is still the most straight forward and descriptive way to go about it. Maybe translating it to male_with_vagina and female_with_penis would alleviate the """problematic""" connotations the more established terms have, but even that gets into bloating the tag for the sake of bloating.

Snergal said:
Cunt isn't really part of polite vernacular no matter how you try to spin it.

Only if you're American, it being a meme that in Australia 'cunt' is used in every other sentence is a meme for a reason, to a lesser extent that holds true in Britain as well.
[edit] Fixed some redundancies / missing text. Also is anyone else having time out issues when trying to navigate the site?

Snergal said:

While you're at it can you swap vagina for pussy? If we're all going to look at pictures of them we can probably call them by their actual name.

This has been suggested about million times, and it doesnt work because vagina means ONLY the inner tube connecting vaginal opening to uterus (it's common misconception that it covers external parts as well, or sometimes even that it means only the external parts). If you take a look around the pussy tag, its pretty obvious that its not common at all to have vagina visible in images. Pussy tag covers both vagina and vulva, and there really isn't any "proper" term that would cover same parts.

Okay, I'm just coming in here to say that I was completely unaware of the forum posts as I don't browse the forum for this site-- it's an imageboard... I use it to look up images. I am one of the users that would not have known about ANY OF THIS had a friend not linked this thread to me directly. I would have been completely unaware that this was an 'issue' being discussed.

While I'm mostly personally indifferent on the changing of tags since the aliases will still exist, I do agree that the terms decided on are long-winded, vague, and downright confusing in the sense that they are likely words that the average individual has never seen before. So I agree that the terms chosen aren't good ones, but in the end this change will not affect me greatly so I'm rather neutral on the whole thing.

I agree with Tynach that you're more likely to attract people pushing for change to a topic than those who are unaware that there is any issue whatsoever, such as myself, as I don't get involved in the forums / non-image posts of e621.

I would not have been against a poll, preferably set up as a banner at the top much like the news notification or as a direct system message to users. I literally had to go double-check if e621 had a direct message system because mine has NEVER been used, lol.

In the end, whatever happens happens.

PS. I also want to toss out a thank you to everyone in this thread who has remained civil discussing the topic.

I'm ah, I'm gonna be honest, I couldn't actually get through the first few pages of comments without getting a headache.

Guys, it's tag what you see, not what you know. On visual alone it's fairly difficult to tell art of an intersex, be it merely full genital difference or hermaphrodite outright, character and a transgender one.

This seems like a similar issue to F-List where folks want the terms changed but few solutions are offered and when ones are stated they are always seen as insufficient/incorrect. Given it's tag what you see on here my best solution would be masculine/feminine_intersex or similar, as... "andromorph" and "gynomorph" seem better suited to describing physiology such as masculinity and femininity overall versus the sexual anatomy which is what is the focus here.
Can anyone think of other usable terms that are both non-vulgar or at least minimally-offensive and do not become entirely clunky/unusable due to sheer length?

Edit; talked a bit with a friend who is more into the alphabet scene than I am (my apologies, the exact sequence of letters eludes me), she suggested using trans tags for characters that have the relevant pre/post op features such as scars and identifiers that show that while a character has made efforts to transition they are biologically the opposite sex, while intersex is used for those that have no such defining characteristics that would, visually, identify them as not having just straight-up been born that way. Beyond scars, adam's apples, bone and muscle structure differences, there's no real way to tell in most art if a character is trans as it's not really a visible thing any more than you would look at a male character and be able to say "he's gay" just on appearance alone.

VotP said:
Can anyone think of other usable terms that are both non-vulgar or at least minimally-offensive and do not become entirely clunky/unusable due to sheer length?

Maybe manly_intersex/girly_intersex could be used instead? But then again, that'd probably make things more confusing considering what the current definitions for manly and girly are. I doubt it'd be worth rewriting stuff, so uh, I guess nevermind.

VotP said:
... it's not really a visible thing any more than you would look at a male character and be able to say "he's gay" just on appearance alone.

Exception here, of course, for George Takei.

VotP said:

Edit; talked a bit with a friend who is more into the alphabet scene than I am (my apologies, the exact sequence of letters eludes me), she suggested using trans tags for characters that have the relevant pre/post op features such as scars and identifiers that show that while a character has made efforts to transition they are biologically the opposite sex, while intersex is used for those that have no such defining characteristics that would, visually, identify them as not having just straight-up been born that way.

That tag actually exists, it's visibly_trans

MyNameIsOver20charac said:
That tag actually exists, it's visibly_trans

Well that should solve half the problems.

I TOLD YOU PEOPLE NOT TO DO THIS YEARS AGO. WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?

Happyfaec said:
I TOLD YOU PEOPLE NOT TO DO THIS YEARS AGO. WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?

I hate to break this to you, but your word in this matter doesn't weight as much as you seem to think. Also it has been explained quite many times why this change will be made.

zedthecat said:
so if your changing these tags because they are "vulgar" are you also going to rename the "fucked_silly" tag because that includes vulgar language as well?

It's the sense of other tags changing name that's something that is forever a possibility for legitimately any tag, as change is something that is always a chance. It's possible that the tag could be aliased to a tag which is a sole word, or multiple words depending on if someone brings something sensible to the table.

Just stating for the record that though this is the change the site is taking at this point, if you feel so strongly against it you can still put in forum suggestions for alternatives even after said change happens. I think I even saw NotMeNotYou say that at one point he wouldn't mind having a way to list lore based tags as well even if currently the system wouldn't be able to handle something like that.

This is just a thonk on that idea, but a tagging group such as
Artist/Character/lore/species/general could be included. and tags associated to lore could hold lore as a prefix to separate from the sorting system which is built around the appearance of characters i.e. image designated female with a lore tag like lore_(male)

hiekkapillu said:

This has been suggested about million times, and it doesnt work because vagina means ONLY the inner tube connecting vaginal opening to uterus (it's common misconception that it covers external parts as well, or sometimes even that it means only the external parts). If you take a look around the pussy tag, its pretty obvious that its not common at all to have vagina visible in images. Pussy tag covers both vagina and vulva, and there really isn't any "proper" term that would cover same parts.

Y'know, I had always wondered why we used pussy when we use penis instead of cock or dick. Thanks for clearing that up.

Anonomn said:

Reading through the thread, I'm surprised it wasn't locked after page 2. Bravo.

Lets throw my two cents in as this pitfire can't get much worse.

While the admins desire to try and make changes that can appease everybody for the better is an admirable one, the seemingly one universal constant when it comes to the kind of people who are hardcore into the 'trans movement' and the like, you can not make (all of) them happy.

There will be more level headed ones, many of which are probably lurking rather than jumping in, who either see and like the change and/or understand the impossible situation this all is, but the select few out of a fraction of a 1% of overall human population who see themselves as the morality police who speaks on the behalf of all of them, won't ever be appeased until you completely remove everything they find 'offensive' (which blasts head on into a myriad of subject matters that don't even remotely relate) and you appease their 13+ genders (Which certainly in the context of this sites "tag what you see" the very concept of 'gender' is bullshit given that there's zero consensus as to even what the hell the term means beyond reinforcing the notion that whats expected of you based on your literal physical sex is valid, flipped or not, which would be an antithesis to what seemingly all of the people who are into the trans thing seem to stand for).

Personally not a fan of the proposed obscure Greek terms for the reasons already stated many times in the thread so far, with issues of obscurity and the terms not quite being 100% applicable, and everything proposed instead having its own issues on a sliding scale of "What the hell even is this?" to "Bloats what should be a straightforward tag a mile long." I'd almost say throw out the notion of male/female all together, but given that aside from a small fraction of art this change actually applies to, literally just "Male" or "Female" in the general tags is still perfectly valid, highlighting how insignificant this all is in relation to the wider site.

I bring that point up, because for that reason I don't think having a dedicated "Establish sex" section for the tags, given it would literally either be "Male", "Female", or both for pieces with two characters of opposite sexes in the same image, for probably 95% of all the images. ie, it'd be a largely redundant addition that only serves to stroke the egos of the lot who care more about how non-conforming a characters sexuality is than literally anything else that could matter.

The fact the change aliases rather than outright replaces was the best move out of all of this, but cuntboy and dickgirl, regardless of how anyone feels about it, is still the most straight forward and descriptive way to go about it. Maybe translating it to male_with_vagina and female_with_penis would alleviate the """problematic""" connotations the more established terms have, but even that gets into bloating the tag for the sake of bloating.

Only if you're American, it being a meme that in Australia 'cunt' is used in every other sentence is a meme for a reason, to a lesser extent that holds true in Britain as well.

[edit] Fixed some redundancies / missing text. Also is anyone else having time out issues when trying to navigate the site?

In the case of this site, I believe they're using the term "gender" to refer to a set of body types + genitals. It's not trying to define what the character actually is or feels. Perhaps we should switch to using "biological sex" or just blanket it under "appearance" instead of using the terms sex or gender.

That got a little long-winded, I apologize. I hope putting them in sections makes it more readable.

Anonomn said:
Reading through the thread, I'm surprised it wasn't locked after page 2

Because if we did that, folks would say that we're "abusing our power" or "not being transparent"

This seems so pointless and ridiculous. Cuntboy and dickgirl are words that people know, NO ONE says gynomorph or andromorph. Also, it reeks of SJW politically correct bullshit.

So how many new tags and tag combinations do I need to add to my blacklist with this change?

THISISFUNNY said:
So how many new tags and tag combinations do I need to add to my blacklist with this change?

none, aliases cover it. The only reason you would need to add new tags is in the event you didn't have something blacklisted the first time.

Stormwatch said:

This seems so pointless and ridiculous. Cuntboy and dickgirl are words that people know, NO ONE says gynomorph or andromorph. Also, it reeks of SJW politically correct bullshit.

Changing a tag that is considered a slur to something more neutral isn't a bad change. The terms are a little obscure, but future changes are possible and people will get used to them over time. Offensiveness is very relative, but this is something that has caused a lot of problems in the past.

I don't think you'd be complaining and crying SJW over those being changed.

THISISFUNNY said:

So how many new tags and tag combinations do I need to add to my blacklist with this change?

The aliases will continue to work. So if you blacklisted the relevant terms before, they'll stay blacklisted.

Thank you so much! I have wanted this for such a long time! Y'all are awesome!

Stormwatch said:
This seems so pointless and ridiculous. Cuntboy and dickgirl are words that people know, NO ONE says gynomorph or andromorph. Also, it reeks of SJW politically correct bullshit.

For what it is worth, I was for the change to these tags and I am heavily anti-sjw. The reason I am for it isn't because of any PC stuff, but because cuntboy and dickgirl sound a lot like someone is calling the character a cunt or a dick.
The terms are not SJW in any way, and are actually scientific biology terms, so we have actual science on our side with this one! It makes the terms less vulgar while actually making sense.

Chaser said:
For what it is worth, I was for the change to these tags and I am heavily anti-sjw. The reason I am for it isn't because of any PC stuff, but because cuntboy and dickgirl sound a lot like someone is calling the character a cunt or a dick.
The terms are not SJW in any way, and are actually scientific biology terms, so we have actual science on our side with this one! It makes the terms less vulgar while actually making sense.

Also, that should somewhat help with artists filing DNP takedowns because they don't like the way we tag things here.
That is, until someone finds another thing to nitpick, but we'll see about that.

Well huh, genuinely wasn't expecting a level headed response, thanks Ninosi, guess I'll try and do the same:

What really tugs my dick is that the moderation team seems to be so against -allowing- characters to be tagged as transsexual. Like, what's the actual harm in that?

KCDodger said:
What really tugs my dick is that the moderation team seems to be so against -allowing- characters to be tagged as transsexual. Like, what's the actual harm in that?

It's totally allowed if it's visible in the image, visibly_trans.

KCDodger said:
What really tugs my dick is that the moderation team seems to be so against -allowing- characters to be tagged as transsexual. Like, what's the actual harm in that?

they aren't, there against images being tagged as such that aren't visibly trans as it's lore based, or the possibility that people can simply declare characters as trans that aren't so it requires visual ques. just like every gender tags require evidence as to what it looks like.