Just a quick question - why, rememering the twys law, do we tag guys with no cock visible as a male? There's no confirmation that it's not a m-herm or cuntboy. Same applies to females.
Anyone?

in a nutshell, sexual dimorphism

I read somewhere that certain chemicals can induce intersex type stuff... like, BPA or something.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/sexual-health/sexuality/gay-moth.htm

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/11/18/research-proves-genderbending-chemicals-affect-reproduction.aspx

"endocrine disrupting chemicals."

Interesting stuff...

Pehovy! said:
Just a quick question - why, rememering the twys law, do we tag guys with no cock visible as a male? There's no confirmation that it's not a m-herm or cuntboy. Same applies to females.
Anyone?

Got to row with the oars we have.
This is also useful.

Not sure if you quite hit the topic.
I mean, male is not always distinguishable from a cuntboy or male-herm. Most of the time it is not, until you see their genitals. I don't think gender should be named till it's 100% certain. There already enough bs about this in comments on some intersex pictures.

Pehovy! said:
Just a quick question - why, rememering the twys law, do we tag guys with no cock visible as a male? There's no confirmation that it's not a m-herm or cuntboy. Same applies to females.
Anyone?

Because we tag what's visible, without making guesses about what's not visible. What might be out of the view is irrelevant to tagging.

HotUnderTheCollar said:
Got to row with the oars we have.
This is also useful.

Okay I see the set rules, just wondering if they should be this way though. I'm not the only one to complain I believe (but yes I understand that this is 'just complaining').

It seems somewhat logical, some people (me included) can not unsee some tag information. Sometimes it's so annoying to me to see someone tagged as a certain gender when I'm doubting the tag being correct.
I suppose the rules might be too hard to reimplement though. Thanks for the reference rule link.

Edit: I don't say we should guess genders, more like tag more pictures as ambiguous gender cause it seems like calling genders black or white is a bit of guessing @Genjar

thus far, barring the occasional argument someone starts about it, i think the 3 main gender tags (male, female, and intersex) have worked sufficiently well without "gender" getting split up among countless different tags based on whatever people choose to come up with.

Generally it defaults to male and female because those are the standard genetic sexes. Given that people with male bodies without male genitals are rather rare, and same for female bodies without female genitals, it defaults to male and female.

Ambig is designed as a last resort if it is impossible to guess whether they're male or female.

hmmm... in some cases all the characters images could be searched, although the method wouldn't be 100% accurate. actually, never-mind, bad idea.

aurel said:
OP goes to his boss, asks him if he's a cuntboy :D

Assume male unless given reason to doubt.

Kaeetayel said:
Generally it defaults to male and female because those are the standard genetic sexes. Given that people with male bodies without male genitals are rather rare, and same for female bodies without female genitals, it defaults to male and female.

Ambig is designed as a last resort if it is impossible to guess whether they're male or female.

These people have the right idea. That we tag what we see doesn't mean every possible sex/gender is automatically and equally considered, some do take priority over others. The basic sexes of male and female are supposed to be presumed (going by other visual info than their junk), and it can really only start to deviate when there's evidence to something else. Or at least a good amount of suggestion.

If we were to use your (much more uncompromising) TWYS system, you'd get like 50% ambiguous_gender posts. And that's not useful with searches at all.

So anyway, effectively, there are virtually no safe-rated cuntboy posts, since you need a visible vagina for that.

Knotty_Curls said:
in a nutshell, sexual dimorphism

Tagging genders on the more extreme (peafowl, frigate birds) or subtle (orca fins) examples of sexual dimorphism is kind of iffy unless genitals are visible. I've seen the rule go both ways.
https://e621.net/forum/show/172432

It's more practical to tag them as male by default when we can only see male characteristics (e.g., there's no evidence of mixed characteristics). howto:tag genders has a nice cheatsheet if you're into that sort of thing.

chdgs said:
Tagging genders on the more extreme (peafowl, frigate birds) or subtle (orca fins) examples of sexual dimorphism is kind of iffy unless genitals are visible. I've seen the rule go both ways.
https://e621.net/forum/show/172432[/quote]

We rarely fall back on characteristics since they complicate tagging and usually aren't drawn consistently enough to work. For instance, even the really obvious udders on female cattle tend to end up drawn on male cattle.

They are definitely part of the overall picture, but for all practical purposes it isn't something I would rely on in most cases.

parasprite said:
howto:tag genders has a nice cheatsheet if you're into that sort of thing.

Already saw it. Already wrote more about it somewhere up there. Could use ambiguous tag more often, but my guess is it'd become tough to correct every already existing post.
Well i'll just have to live in this imperfect gender sorting world I suppose. :D

Like I said, ambig is a last resort. e6 is a porn site, after all, and very few people go around searching for ambiguous gendered characters.

Kaeetayel said:
Like I said, ambig is a last resort. e6 is a porn site, after all, and very few people go around searching for ambiguous gendered characters.

No it isn't. If e6 were a porn site there would be no point in safe-rated image hosting.

Ratte said:
No it isn't. If e6 were a porn site there would be no point in safe-rated image hosting.

We're a porn-heavy site that's supposed to be focused on furry artwork in general, then. Still porn-heavy :P

But yeah, ambiguous_gender gets undertagged where it should be tagged, and there are plenty of images that should have it, especially where feral animals are shown but no genitals. If an image has characters but lacks any of the four broad gender tags (Five if there's a tag for nonbinary genders for alien species where it isn't actually an intersex), it definitely needs to be fixed on that.

Maybe we should make a unknown_gender tag, for when ambiguous isn't appropriate but there are no obvious gender signs.

xXMAGIKzMushroomXx said:
Maybe we should make a unknown_gender tag, for when ambiguous isn't appropriate but there are no obvious gender signs.

That's exactly when ambiguous is appropriate.

Furrin_Gok said:
That's exactly when ambiguous is appropriate.

I just noticed it was aliased to it anyway. Perhaps there should be another relevant tag though? (For when the character could be trans etc but it is impossible to tell)

Come to think of it, what would these posts be tagged as for gender? https://e621.net/post/index/1/kishin%20rating:s

xXMAGIKzMushroomXx said:
Come to think of it, what would these posts be tagged as for gender? https://e621.net/post/index/1/kishin%20rating:s

post #819783 post #774168

First one seems masculine to me. I'd probably tag it as male. Second one seems pretty clearly female.

Then again this is not my forte, so don't take my word as gospel. That's just how I see the two.

xXMAGIKzMushroomXx said:
Come to think of it, what would these posts be tagged as for gender? https://e621.net/post/index/1/kishin%20rating:s

Both of those lack enough gender dimorphism to call them male or female, therefore, qualify as ambiguous.

xXMAGIKzMushroomXx said:
I just noticed it was aliased to it anyway. Perhaps there should be another relevant tag though? (For when the character could be trans etc but it is impossible to tell)

Doesn't trans just mean they underwent a gender change? That's not something you can normally tell by looking at an image, so we don't tag it since it wouldn't fall under Tag What You See. If there is an indication of it, it would simply be tagged with scar or stitches, as that's really the closest thing you can see to it.
A character represented as a gender different from their established canonical gender would be tagged as crossgender.

Clawdragons said:
post #819783 post #774168

First one seems masculine to me. I'd probably tag it as male. Second one seems pretty clearly female.

I'd tag those the same way. The second, at least, is clearly feminine.

xXMAGIKzMushroomXx said:
I just noticed it was aliased to it anyway. Perhaps there should be another relevant tag though? (For when the character could be trans etc but it is impossible to tell)

In what way is this different than ambiguous_gender?

Furrin_Gok said:
Both of those lack enough gender dimorphism to call them male or female, therefore, qualify as ambiguous.
Doesn't trans just mean they underwent a gender change? That's not something you can normally tell by looking at an image, so we don't tag it since it wouldn't fall under Tag What You See. If there is an indication of it, it would simply be tagged with scar or stitches, as that's really the closest thing you can see to it.
A character represented as a gender different from their established canonical gender would be tagged as crossgender.

Trans would also reasonably apply in images where dialogue indicates that they identify in a way that's different from their apparent genitalia. For instance a character with a vagina being referred to as "he", or a character with a penis being referred to as "she", at least where they would otherwise not be tagged with "intersex" (that is, they otherwise look entirely feminine or masculine), which is admittedly a rather small subsection of trans* characters, I think.

Still, a possibility worth considering, and if it were properly tagged I could see it even being something I'd search for.

Genjar said:
I'd tag those the same way. The second, at least, is clearly feminine.

I'm glad I'm not completely off-base there then. I always worry when tagging less-clear cases like that, to the point where often I try to explain my choice in the comments when I do so.

parasprite said:
In what way is this different than ambiguous_gender?

That was a good point, thik about it again. Ambig would be more of a "compltely no clue" tag and the new one, "Male/Female gendered but not exactly sure". Perhaps 'male' 'cuntoy' and 'maleherm" shoud be grouped and pinned with "male-gendered" tag and females, dickgirls and herms should go into "female-gendered" group? When some pics would be not informing enough about exact gender, posters could tag one of two binary options.

Pehovy! said:
That was a good point, thik about it again. Ambig would be more of a "compltely no clue" tag and the new one, "Male/Female gendered but not exactly sure". Perhaps 'male' 'cuntoy' and 'maleherm" shoud be grouped and pinned with "male-gendered" tag and females, dickgirls and herms should go into "female-gendered" group? When some pics would be not informing enough about exact gender, posters could tag one of two binary options.

Ambiguous means ambiguous. Cuntboys, hermaphrodites, dickgirls, and futanari fall under intersex.

Furrin_Gok said:
Ambiguous means ambiguous. Cuntboys, hermaphrodites, dickgirls, and futanari fall under intersex.

Not exactly trying to understand what I mean, are you?
What if we DON'T KNOW if characters is a male, or just male gendered? Wou that be helpful to use "male-gendered" or "female-gendered" tags for it instead of calling everything male or female when we can't guess exact gender but have one-out-of-two clue?

Pehovy! said:
Not exactly trying to understand what I mean, are you?
What if we DON'T KNOW if characters is a male, or just male gendered? Wou that be helpful to use "male-gendered" or "female-gendered" tags for it instead of calling everything male or female when we can't guess exact gender but have one-out-of-two clue?

Can you give some examples of posts that would be "(fe)male" versus "(fe)male-gendered"? I think it might help others to understand what you mean.

parasprite said:
Can you give some examples of posts that would be "(fe)male" versus "(fe)male-gendered"? I think it might help others to understand what you mean.

My thinking:
"Female-gendered" is a group tag for characters with female-like characteristics like breast or some special dimorphism features. It can be used standalone in case of lack of exact gender confirmed by genitals, or it could be added automatically to one of these three tags "female", "dicgirl", "herm"
Analogically same thing would go for "Male-gendered" group, pinned to "Maleherm" "male" and "cunboy"

Pehovy! said:
My thinking:
"Female-gendered" is a group tag for characters with female-like characteristics like breast or some special dimorphism features. It can be used standalone in case of lack of exact gender confirmed by genitals, or it could be added automatically to one of these three tags "female", "dicgirl", "herm"
Analogically same thing would go for "Male-gendered" group, pinned to "Maleherm" "male" and "cunboy"

That's what the tags "Male" and "Female" are for. Whether there's evidence or not, we just use those two simple tags.

parasprite said:
In what way is this different than ambiguous_gender?

Well for some pictures, their genitilia may not be visible, but they may have breasts. You could automatically say "that character is female" but they could still be a herm and you just don't know because their penis isn't showing, And vice versa

Examples: https://e621.net/post/show/819972 and https://e621.net/post/show/810304

Furrin_Gok said:
That's what the tags "Male" and "Female" are for. Whether there's evidence or not, we just use those two simple tags.

Those names are missleading, inaccurate, and simply could be improved

xXMAGIKzMushroomXx said:
Well for some pictures, their genitilia may not be visible, but they may have breasts. You could automatically say "that character is female" but they could still be a herm and you just don't know because their penis isn't showing, And vice versa

Examples: https://e621.net/post/show/819972 and https://e621.net/post/show/810304

Tag What You See, Not What You Know.

If you don't see it, you assume it isn't there. What may canonically be there is irrelevant. If you see a character with breasts, you assume female because breasts are an inherently female trait.

TWYS considers general traits such as breasts, bodyshape, etc, not just what plumbing can be seen in an image. Otherwise every safe-rated post would be ambiguous, because by principle safe-rated posts do not show genitalia at all, but there could be breasts under clothing (or with cartoon nudity).

Pehovy! said:
Those names are missleading, inaccurate, and simply could be improved

"Male type" is "Male." How is that misleading? What would be misleading is the Masculine and Feminine tags. What is considered masculine or feminine to one culture could be the opposite of another culture, and this is the World Wide Web we're on here. Since our goal is to make it fluid and work for everybody, worldwide, we just use the simple tags that can't be confused for something else, and are non-debatable.

My OC is a chihuahua but (s)he identifies as a dolphin. Can I tag it with dolphin?

Spoiler alert: no